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That's weird. I have a LME shortblock and was pushed towards the 10295. That's what I'm running and have about 70psi cold and 60 hot. Seems to be doing good to me.
Actually that Moroso 20142 Road Race Oil Pan looks great. I was thinking of doing a baffled stock pan, but that adds some capacity and looks like it'd be even better. Plus it comes with the oil filter integrated. A little pricey when you add the windage tray, pickup, and specific studs. But eh.
Actually that Moroso 20142 Road Race Oil Pan looks great. I was thinking of doing a baffled stock pan, but that adds some capacity and looks like it'd be even better. Plus it comes with the oil filter integrated. A little pricey when you add the windage tray, pickup, and specific studs. But eh.
I think that'd fit with a UMI Tubular K-Member...
Yeah don't go with a stock pan with a improved racing baffle kit. I have it and still get oil pressure drop on acceleration.
Actually that Moroso 20142 Road Race Oil Pan looks great. I was thinking of doing a baffled stock pan, but that adds some capacity and looks like it'd be even better. Plus it comes with the oil filter integrated. A little pricey when you add the windage tray, pickup, and specific studs. But eh.
I think that'd fit with a UMI Tubular K-Member...
Jake, I just finished mocking up a Spohn K member/manual rack and UMI solid motor mounts. I have to say it has a mile of clearance with the Moroso oil pan.
The 20142 is a nice pan as well, but I like the idea of a remote oil filter.
Yeah don't go with a stock pan with a improved racing baffle kit. I have it and still get oil pressure drop on acceleration.
What kind of acceleration are we talking about? Do you have a specific 60 ft time?
Originally Posted by speedtigger
I am curious as to how you know definitively what everyone else in the world has done. You may want to revise your statement to something more like: "I am personally not aware of any other LS oil pump testing".
Do some research on Vern Schumann and his oil pumps. I met him at PRI. Vern does extensive flow testing and shared flow rates on all of his custom pumps with me.
I kinda get what he is trying to point out. Regardless of all the bench testing of these pumps, and lets say whatever someone does to a pump increases flow or pressure by XXX amount, that's not necessarily when its hooked to an engine.....flow especially in this case. I'm no expert in the field but measuring flow once the flow has split a million different directions may prove nearly impossible. Kinda like increasing the top speed of a vehicle to 200 mph when the owner never drives over the speed limit of 55 mph, basically pointless in its intended application, but great on paper.
I kinda get what he is trying to point out. Regardless of all the bench testing of these pumps, and lets say whatever someone does to a pump increases flow or pressure by XXX amount, that's not necessarily when its hooked to an engine.....flow especially in this case. I'm no expert in the field but measuring flow once the flow has split a million different directions may prove nearly impossible. Kinda like increasing the top speed of a vehicle to 200 mph when the owner never drives over the speed limit of 55 mph, basically pointless in its intended application, but great on paper.
If you got all of that out of what he said, I must have really missed the point.
If you got all of that out of what he said, I must have really missed the point.
Not necessarily. Just different perspectives of pressure and volume, two things that can be difficult to see and understand at times. He is very clearly against this pump, and others seem to lean for it. Based on the conversation I can see both sides of the argument. Notice I didn't state MY actual opinion, as this thread has enough of those already, and like I said, I'm no expert in the field. Here's some quotes that stood out in my mind.
Originally Posted by drew408
Oil pressure is a highly debated subject. Personally,i think any pump with the correct shimming and porting to increase VOLUME,all pumps are going to perform very similar.
.
Originally Posted by KCS
Honestly, I don't think the "porting" really does much, at least not that you might notice. I do like to do it though and at least get rid of the sharp edges and blend it in. It doesn't really take long to do anyways.
Originally Posted by KCS
Porting doesn't increase volume; at least not significantly. This isn't cylinder heads, this is a pump.
Originally Posted by drew408
It's all a MOOT point because no1 has EVER actually tested the flow of ANy pumps besides the manufacturer. I understand how georotors work very well BUT we don't know other limitations in the system(from the pickup to the size of the oil passages)
Originally Posted by drew408
I see you didn't point out anything else like no specs out there besides what the manufacturer tells us
What kind of acceleration are we talking about? Do you have a specific 60 ft time?
I kinda get what he is trying to point out. Regardless of all the bench testing of these pumps, and lets say whatever someone does to a pump increases flow or pressure by XXX amount, that's not necessarily when its hooked to an engine.....flow especially in this case. I'm no expert in the field but measuring flow once the flow has split a million different directions may prove nearly impossible. Kinda like increasing the top speed of a vehicle to 200 mph when the owner never drives over the speed limit of 55 mph, basically pointless in its intended application, but great on paper.
If I just topped the oil off with over 6 quarts it does good. Up until it starts getting a little low. But from a first gear roll on the highway it drops down to around 50ish. It comes back up once it planes out some in top of second. Sixty foot times are only 2.60's. Slipping clutch and radials with a six speed.
Not necessarily. Just different perspectives of pressure and volume, two things that can be difficult to see and understand at times. He is very clearly against this pump, and others seem to lean for it. Based on the conversation I can see both sides of the argument. Notice I didn't state MY actual opinion, as this thread has enough of those already, and like I said, I'm no expert in the field. Here's some quotes that stood out in my mind.
These are positive displacement pumps, are they not?
It shouldn't be a matter of opinion that a larger pump flows more. If he is saying that a smaller melling pump flows as much as a larger GM DOD pump, he is simply wrong.
If I just topped the oil off with over 6 quarts it does good. Up until it starts getting a little low. But from a first gear roll on the highway it drops down to around 50ish. It comes back up once it planes out some in top of second. Sixty foot times are only 2.60's. Slipping clutch and radials with a six speed.
I almost wonder if you have something else wrong. Rolls or off the line with a 1.75 60 ft on street tires I never see oil drop. Only when I autoX or a long sweeper. This was with a stock f-body pan and pump with the rx7 oil cooler thrown in. Nothing fancy at all. Now I have a crank scraper, baffle and melling high volume pump. Have yet to see the pressure drop under any circumstance. I'm still running stock clearances so that may keep the pump from sucking the pan dry.
Porting a pump doesn't change it's flow, at least not significantly enough to be measured or relevant. The flow rate or volume is determined by the displacement of the pump. That's why high-volume pumps have to be larger.
Porting a pump DOES help decrease cavitation, especially at high RPM's. Sharp corners and rough surfaces generate cavitation (essentially tiny air bubbles) at high flow rates (high RPMs). This can decrease flow at high RPMs as well as eventually cause "pitting" in the metal where cavitation occurs.
Coating:
Coating the gears to reduce friction doesn't increase flow either. However it would improve efficiency, or in other words decrease the amount of horsepower required to turn the pump. This frees up horsepower.
They didn't really mention which specific coating is being used. Looking at the Tech Line website, it looks like some coatings might be more permanent (some sort of baked on ceramic coating) than others (dry film lubricants). I didn't see any info on how long they last.
Melling Pumps:
The Melling M295 and 10295 are both factory-sized (same volume as the non-DOD factory pump) with approximately the same flow rates. The 10295 has an optional stiffer relief spring which allows for higher pressures a high RPM. The advantage of these pumps is they have less tendency to cavitate at high RPMs.
The Melling 10296 pump flows approximate 18% more than the factory non-DOD pump (because it has a little more displacement). It's a good choice if you need a little more oil flow for a non-DOD setup. It also has the optional higher relief pressure spring like the 10295 pump.
The Melling 10355 flows the same as the factory DOD pump. These pumps are only required for engines equipped with DOD and VVT, which are hydraulically actuated by oil pressure. Engines with DOD have a relief valve built-in to the oil pan to return excess oil flow straight back to the oil pan when DOD isn't active and the excess flow isn't needed. These pumps shouldn't be used with regular non-DOD engines because they flow more than necessary and can result in emptying the oil pan, which can lead to oil starvation, if you don't have the relief valve in the oil pan. And if you do have the relief valve but nothing to consume the extra oil flow, the excess flow won't be doing anything except decreasing wheel horsepower as they require more horsepower to turn. You might need the 10355 pump if you somehow have very loose tolerances or ported oil passages and have trouble maintaining oil pressure with a standard flow pump at lower RPMs. But typically the 10296 has enough flow to correct for that.
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If I just topped the oil off with over 6 quarts it does good. Up until it starts getting a little low. But from a first gear roll on the highway it drops down to around 50ish. It comes back up once it planes out some in top of second. Sixty foot times are only 2.60's. Slipping clutch and radials with a six speed.
That doesn't seem normal. You shouldn't see any drops in oil pressure even with the stock setup in those conditions. So it only happens at high RPMs after launching in first, but not at high RPMs in any other gear?
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