Help me build a 370. Please! - LS1TECH - Camaro and Firebird Forum Discussion

Notices
Generation III Internal Engine 1997-2006 LS1 | LS6
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Help me build a 370. Please!

Reply

Old 08-06-2018, 10:57 PM
  #1  
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
 
trik396's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Crown Point, IN
Posts: 310
Default Help me build a 370. Please!

Hey guys. Getting ready to take a 6.0 block to machine shop. Going with a forged piston/rod combo using the stock crank. I think I am sticking with the 317 heads because of the budget I am on. So my issues are related to piston choices and head gaskets. With a zero deck and 030 compressed gaskets I can achieve between 10.5 to over 11 to 1 compression with a small dome piston.
I have no idea what the actual deck height is now (stock)
does anyone know how far down, if at all, the stock pistons are below deck?
I want this to be a strong street engine. Torque is what I need. Not worried about horsepower at 6500. More interested in highest average trq between 2500 to 4500.
BTR recommended a NA Ls stage 1 or 2 cam
LS1/2 Stage II Cam 227/234 .614"/.576" 113+2
or
LS1/2 Stage I Cam 223/230 .610"/.573" 115+2
so I want opinions about rods, pistons, and cam selection.
before anyone chimes in I know I don't need forged rods or pistons but that is what I want for reasons that would take to long to get into here.
tell me I'm over thinking this or tell me I'm crazy. Just tell me something!
trik396 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2018, 11:03 PM
  #2  
TECH Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Central Cal.
Posts: 6,227
Default

Please explain why you think you need a forged setup, because from the above list of parts and you saying no need to go above 6500, you do NOT need a forged bottom end. Save a ***** of money and use a stock crank, rods, and pistons, which are all much stronger than you think.
I think you ARE overthinking this. Save some money.
G Atsma is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2018, 11:18 PM
  #3  
Launching!
iTrader: (1)
 
Kfxguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 294
Default

I would t do some pistons either. Flat tops and get your quench right.

And on a side note, I have a ls1 stage 2 btr 227/234 cam I put up for sale. It has less than 4000 Miles on it. You can save yourself some money that way. I wouldn’t go with a stage 1 at that size of an engine.
Kfxguy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2018, 11:54 PM
  #4  
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
 
trik396's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Crown Point, IN
Posts: 310
Default

Originally Posted by G Atsma View Post
Please explain why you think you need a forged setup, because from the above list of parts and you saying no need to go above 6500, you do NOT need a forged bottom end. Save a ***** of money and use a stock crank, rods, and pistons, which are all much stronger than you think.
I think you ARE overthinking this. Save some money.
I might throw a procharger on her in the future. I over think too much not arguing with you there.
trik396 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2018, 11:55 PM
  #5  
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
 
trik396's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Crown Point, IN
Posts: 310
Default

Originally Posted by Kfxguy View Post
I would t do some pistons either. Flat tops and get your quench right.

And on a side note, I have a ls1 stage 2 btr 227/234 cam I put up for sale. It has less than 4000 Miles on it. You can save yourself some money that way. I wouldnít go with a stage 1 at that size of an engine.
can I ask why you are selling it?
trik396 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 12:36 AM
  #6  
TECH Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Central Cal.
Posts: 6,227
Default

Even with the Procharger, what is your target horsepower?
G Atsma is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 06:30 AM
  #7  
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
 
Che70velle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dawsonville Ga.
Posts: 1,172
Default

Don’t order head gaskets until you choose whatever piston/rod combo your going to use, and it’s mocked up in the engine. You must know where your piston is at...above or below deck height...before you order headgaskets. This dimension will vary, depending on what you choose.
Concerning the forged setup...it’s much easier to find piston selection with a 6.125” rod, than a stock rod, so I would go with forged stuff also. Not much available for 6.098” rods.
Che70velle is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 09:05 AM
  #8  
Launching!
iTrader: (1)
 
Kfxguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 294
Default

Originally Posted by trik396 View Post
can I ask why you are selling it?
Iím putting a turbo on the car right now and I have the timing cover off the engine waiting on more parts. I wanted a sleeper so hereís my chance to put a smaller cam while itís apart. Honestly Iím on the fence about it because Iím afraid Iíll lose power and the car wonít sound as good. I want it to idle almost as low as stock, this cam idles at 725-750 in a 5.7. Would be under that in a bigger motor. If I donít sell it, my feelings wonít be hurt to be honest but with a turbo I really donít need this big (itís really not that big either) of a cam. Itís pretty torquey in my 5.7 and in a 6.0 or bigger I bet it would be a hoot to drive.
Kfxguy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 10:01 AM
  #9  
Restricted User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6,101
Default

I wouldn't go with either of those cams for average torque. Duration on the Stage 1 isn't so bad, but that LSA is too wide for best torque.
JoeNova is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 10:20 AM
  #10  
Launching!
iTrader: (1)
 
Kfxguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 294
Default

Originally Posted by JoeNova View Post
I wouldn't go with either of those cams for average torque. Duration on the Stage 1 isn't so bad, but that LSA is too wide for best torque.
I donít but into the thought that a low lobe separation has more torque or makes a car faster. In the real world I donít think thatís the case. Everything Iíve every built including 4 wheelers I always ran a wider lobe separation and my combos were always faster than the next guy. Iíve always been known to have above average running stuff. I the 4 wheeler drag world I used to be in, everyone thought that 106 lobe separation was the ticket. I started going wider and as I did the thing made more power, went faster and was more rideable. I still hold the record for rwhp on that particular engine.

My theory is this. If you have a purpose built drag machine and everything is tailored to a specific rpm range, then maybe a tighter lobe separation will be faster. But, if you have a car you enjoy driving around, you care if it spits raw fuel out at idle and stinks, gets very poor fuel mileage and idle real rough, well a wider lobe separation is what you want. I relate this to the old belief that exhaust back pressure is good and small tube headers build more tq. Which we all know was a sham. But hey, what do I know?
Kfxguy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 10:35 AM
  #11  
Restricted User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6,101
Default

LSA camshaft test.
Blue is 108 LSA, Red is 112 LSA, Green is 120 LSA.
Lobes between the 3 cams are 100% identical. The only difference is lobe separation.




Narrow LSA camshafts also tend to have more part throttle torque for cruising/towing (to an extent). When you start increasing overlap too much, you lose cylinder pressure.

Howard's has a small (off the top of my head) 210/214 .600/.600 108 LSA that has been shown to provide excellent low end torque and part throttle towing torque (and throttle response) while keeping decent idle quality for such a low LSA camshaft. I've been oddly fascinated with attempting a 'Truck cam' shootout after seeing results of this particular cam.
JoeNova is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 11:00 AM
  #12  
Launching!
iTrader: (1)
 
Kfxguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 294
Default

I’ve seen that test before but that doesn’t change my mind. I’m not so sure that every cam profile will respond the same way that particular one did in that test. Plus the peripherals (compression, heads, intake, etc) May be tailored more towards the tighter lobe seperation.
Kfxguy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 12:31 PM
  #13  
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
 
trik396's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Crown Point, IN
Posts: 310
Default

Originally Posted by Che70velle View Post
Donít order head gaskets until you choose whatever piston/rod combo your going to use, and itís mocked up in the engine. You must know where your piston is at...above or below deck height...before you order headgaskets. This dimension will vary, depending on what you choose.
Concerning the forged setup...itís much easier to find piston selection with a 6.125Ē rod, than a stock rod, so I would go with forged stuff also. Not much available for 6.098Ē rods.
Just got back from machine shop. Going with eagle h beams with 8740 arp bolts and cp bullet pistons with their ring pack. They are distributors for everything and I got prices that beat Summit or Jegs by a good amount. Going to get a set of 799 heads and depending on deck height and gasket I should be just under 11 to 1.
trik396 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 03:33 PM
  #14  
TECH Addict
iTrader: (40)
 
00pooterSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dallas
Posts: 2,621
Default

Originally Posted by JoeNova View Post
LSA camshaft test.
Blue is 108 LSA, Red is 112 LSA, Green is 120 LSA.
Lobes between the 3 cams are 100% identical. The only difference is lobe separation.




Narrow LSA camshafts also tend to have more part throttle torque for cruising/towing (to an extent). When you start increasing overlap too much, you lose cylinder pressure.

Howard's has a small (off the top of my head) 210/214 .600/.600 108 LSA that has been shown to provide excellent low end torque and part throttle towing torque (and throttle response) while keeping decent idle quality for such a low LSA camshaft. I've been oddly fascinated with attempting a 'Truck cam' shootout after seeing results of this particular cam.

Where is that chart from? Would love to read more on that test.

I hear ya on that truck cam fascination, if you need a vote to do the test, please do it!
00pooterSS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 05:54 PM
  #15  
TECH Resident
iTrader: (33)
 
5.7stroker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: OH
Posts: 984
Default

Might just have to go with an LSX block and make a 388 out of it.......a 4 bolt head setup sounds good until you install the 6 bolt heads. You're either paying now or paying later when it breaks.
5.7stroker is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 06:13 PM
  #16  
Restricted User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6,101
Default

Originally Posted by 5.7stroker View Post
Might just have to go with an LSX block and make a 388 out of it.......a 4 bolt head setup sounds good until you install the 6 bolt heads. You're either paying now or paying later when it breaks.
What?
JoeNova is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 09:35 PM
  #17  
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,822
Default

BTR stage 2 would be a nice cam for a 470. Maybe even their Stage 3 cam. Stage 1 is too small IMO.
wannafbody is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2018, 06:07 AM
  #18  
Launching!
iTrader: (2)
 
Ls7colorado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Jackson, TN
Posts: 226
Default

Originally Posted by 5.7stroker View Post
Might just have to go with an LSX block and make a 388 out of it.......a 4 bolt head setup sounds good until you install the 6 bolt heads. You're either paying now or paying later when it breaks.

Wrong thread?
Ls7colorado is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2018, 06:51 AM
  #19  
KCS
Moderator
iTrader: (19)
 
KCS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 7,974
Default

Originally Posted by Kfxguy View Post
Iíve seen that test before but that doesnít change my mind. Iím not so sure that every cam profile will respond the same way that particular one did in that test. Plus the peripherals (compression, heads, intake, etc) May be tailored more towards the tighter lobe seperation.
If you look at the EMC engines, where average power wins, you will see narrow LSA cams are pretty common.
KCS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2018, 01:07 PM
  #20  
Launching!
iTrader: (1)
 
Kfxguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 294
Default

To the op, my buddy has a stage 3 tooley cam in his 6 liter gto. It’s pretty rowdy and it’s very loud. I’ve got video of it. He has like 6 mufflers on it too lol. He had to go to a 3800 stall vs his 3200 because it actually slowed down at the track. It also idles at 950. The funny thing is since he put it in he hardly drives the car anymore, just something I noticed. The cam he had before was a 220/220 Texas speed. Once he changed the stall it it I think he picked up a tenth and almost 2 mph over the smaller cam. He was disappointed. So as you know, bigger ain’t always better especially if everything isn’t matched.
Kfxguy is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: