Are roller rockers worth it?

I've read a bunch of threads on here and facebook, as well as watched a couple videos on the subject, and I can't seem to find a clear answer on if I should buy some roller rockers.

A few weeks ago, a friend mentioned he watched a video where an LQ4 gained a few horsepower from switching to some roller rockers. Skip to 3:30 and PowerNation shows they gained 9hp from the Summit brand roller rockers, stock 1.7 ratio.


Here, Richard Holdener, also shows gains from roller rockers. He makes it clear that because of the extra weight on the nose, you need to make sure you have springs that can support them in high rpms.


Here are the Summit racing roller rockers from the PowerNation video. (Summit SUM-G6980)



Here are another set, less than half the price. (Speedmaster PCE261.1041.03)



The only reason I'm asking if it's worth going with either of these options, is because I've been planning on doing the CHE trunion bearing upgrade on my oem rockers, and that will cost $220 USD. Since I'm already spending some money towards the rockers, should I just go with roller rockers over the trunion bearing upgrade?

For reference, I have an LS6 in an '04 CTS-V1.
- stock block, stock heads
- BTR stage 3 cam (231/242 | .617"/.593" | 112)
- 660" Lift BTR Platinum LS Spring Kit

My buddy who's looking to do the same thing, has an '02 Camaro Z28 (LS1)
- Stock block, stock 243/799 heads
- Texas Speed "Bald Eagle" cam (227/234 | .600"/.600" | 111)
- upgraded springs from Texas Speed, but doesn't remember which ones.

Let me know your opinions and experiences.

 

Moving over here to Gen 3 internals

As to your question -- if lift is under .625, I would stay stock.

 

I agree with Darth here.
I saw HotRod Mag did the Summit roller rockers a few years ago and picked up 8 or 9 hp…might be same video as linked above I didn’t click on it honestly…honestly though your not going to notice 8 or 9 hp under 99.8% or driving conditions. Spring rate must be right due to the added rocker weight out over the nose. An aluminum rocker arm will fatigue with heat cycles and will eventually fail. The Oem steel rockers will outlast many, many rebuilds. I’m not sold on a trunnion upgrade being an actual “upgrade” either. I’ve done a few of them myself, but I’m not sure I upgraded anything…only changed something. The Oem roller fulcrum is pretty slick and will last 300-400k miles. Sure..some have failed, but every part has the potential to fail. I’ve seen many more aftermarket trunnions fail than Oem units.

 

Sorry, thought that's where I posted.

Why?

Not asking to be difficult, just asking to understand.

 

Normally, I understand this comment. But if I'm driving this car, it's because I'm out to do something dumb. Cruises, runs, track days, etc.


I see, so it's more of a no because of reliability and longevity vs a few extra hp.

 

I did not take it that way at all. Stock rockers are very light over the tip. And steel is very strong. And upgrades you do are going to add weight over the valve tip - requiring more spring and more pushrod stiffness to counter the spring. Then you start getting into lifter dynamics.

You do gain a little bit of low lift duration with roller tips, but it becomes a very expensive 10 hp.

Pretty much everything Chevelle said

 

Depends how competitive you are going to get with your car.
There are too many dyno tests out there showing the 9~10 hp gain from roller rockers to dismiss them, so I have become a believer in them. There are certainly other things you can do to get the 9hp, but if you don't have the roller rockers that's 9hp that you won't have until you get some. It's also 9hp that comes without compromising fuel economy, idle quality, or your tune. Your choice what you want to spend your money on. I agree that the most cost effective and durable solution is the stock rocker, and a trunion kit is a nice thing to have; that's quite a reliable valvetrain, but probably leaves a bit of power on the table. Possibly the best solution I've seen are the 1.72 ratio steel roller rockers from Texas Speed; they're not cheap, but should cover all the bases.

 

For me, yes, and it depends on the car also. If it’s a daily, vs it being a weekend warrior, etc.

 

What i haven't seen mentioned yet is the necessity of roller rockers with certain aftermarket cylinder heads. Some aftermarket heads come with bronze valve guides which will wear over time, especially with stock rockers and bigger cams causing a "side load" on the valve. Also Darth mentioned it but didn't touch on why roller rockers are a good idea with cams over a certain lift..I've seen these lift numbers vary depending who you talk to, anywhere from a max of .580 lift to .625..but the point of that is it causes an unfavorable "scrub" pattern on the valve tip with an increase in lift which could lead to valve tip wear. I've seen this first hand, I put a set of PRC 225 as cast heads on my LS1 which had the same cam as yours (BTR Stage 3). And after 700 miles I started noticing the valve tip wear on 4 or 5 valves...now I can't say for certain if it was caused by insufficient hardening of the valves or if it was because of the cam lift, but the stock rocker arms also showed some slight grooves where it was in contact with the valve. I ended up sending the heads back to texas speed and they replaced all the valves free of charge, and I used these heads on my new short block 383, but this time went with TSP 1.72 roller rockers to hopefully keep that from happening again, and also chose that route since the heads have bronze valve guides. Even though texas speed states their bronze guides are superior to other brands and are stock rocker friendly, I'd rather be safe than sorry and have to pull the heads off down the line to have them gone through. These heads came with PAC .660 lift springs with over 400lbs of open spring pressure (measured them myself). So in theory there should be plenty of spring pressure for the TSP roller rockers,I have the car on the dyno now, but fighting an ignition break up issue so time will tell once we get that figured out.

 

Exactly. In a pinch, I once used lash caps to "spread the load" on that wear so I could push the lift a bit with the stock style rockers. At the time, I believed it worked, but I ended up tearing into the motor before I could really tell if the lash caps helped.

 

I had the same thing happen to my TF 220 heads with stock rocker arms with a 0604 lift cam. I have been running Yella Terra rocker arms for over 8 years now with no issues.

 

The issue with the "scrub" is there are modifications to the rocker pedestals (usually have to mill to change the geometry). 0.650" lift, stock rockers, over 40K on the setup and valves are still fine. Rockers are also fine as well.

 

yep, yep and yep. The funny thing about the bronze guide thing is that the manufacturers don't tell you what kind of bronze alloy they use. There are more than a few.
I have YT's on my AFR heads just for that reason. My head guy tells me whatever AFR uses is very tough and normal rockers would be fine. I'm just chicken to try it. I'd actually prefer the simplicity and quietness of stock rockers. Cam lift is .610 or so.
I have 440 lb open springs, and busted a few of the earlier YT's. I have the latest set on there now, maybe 8 years. But not a ton of miles.

Ron

 

THIS!!! I'm running a Futral cam in my LS7. 232° duration I, 250° E. 112° LSA, 17° overlap. Lift is "only" .603" I, .608" E. Yes, it's tame for an LS7.
My next cam will have more lift. Maybe lift will be .620"I, .625" E, with duration of 236°-238° I, and 244°-246° E. Haven't decided on LSA yet, but thinking 114°-115.5°. I have some stiffer springs, and I'm a bit worried about running aluminum RRs with 420lbs open. I was very interested in the Texas Speed RRs, but don't really want to go any stiffer on springs, and don't know if 165lbs/420lbs is stiff enough to overcome the increased weight. Thoughts??? Not trying to hijack, as this seems on topic......

 

You have money to spend - upgrade something - rockers are easy.

Hmm get some clear valve covers so you can show your friends the cool roller rockers you got.

waste of money!!!


Better upgrade would be higher rear gear ratio

 

I wonder if the rail mount systems from Comp or BTR would provide better stability than individual roller tip rockers.

 

Tales of four rocker sets...

1) Original OEM rockers are still working great on my 02 Z28. They have 260,000 miles

2) Original OEM rockers worked great on my 99 T/A, ~164,000 miles and 132,000 miles with heads & cam package. Cam was a 224/224 XER .581 lift. Rockers show they scrubbed on tip. They were still OK at last valve spring change done at 154,000 miles.

3) Jesel Roller Rockers 1.7's are on my 91 RS's 383 LS1. They have w/13,000 miles with a .578 lift cam. This seemed like a good idea at the time for a ~8 whp gain. Now, I have no piece of mind in the long run with these aluminum rockers duexto worry about fatigue. They are quality aluminum rockers but they are nose heavy compared to stock. When valve springs/kit are refurbished, I'm going to probably go to a stock rocker and up date the cam etc.

4) 99T/A's 416, w/.625 lift cam talked with cam guru and cam was spec'd with less lift to work with stock rockers. Cam guru felt this would be OK for ~70,000 to 80,000 miles or so - in other words the rockers would be OK and engine would need rering/refresh due to 4 inch stroke crank (~50,000 to 60,000 miles) before valve train was toast.

 

I think roller rockers are viable in certain applications. Most street and mild race stuff can utilize stock rockers successfully and go pretty fast. When you really push the limits of valvetrain design, roller rockers seem to end up being pretty much the only choice.

I used Comp’s Ultra Pro Mag roller rocker system without any problems. I chose them because I wanted a steel body rocker (durability), I wanted the roller tip (reduce side loading), and I wanted the higher rocker ratio (more lift with smaller lobe). With that, there were some compromises though. They are physically larger and did not play well with the stock valve covers, and because of the heavier mass, I chose a cam from Comp with a super stable (ie slow) lobe profile so that I wouldn’t need a whole bunch of spring pressure to control the valve.

I’ve since swapped the heads and cam, and the roller rockers aren’t really ideal anymore, so now I’m installing the BTR shaft system.