Brian Tooley Racing

iTrader: (13)

I guess you didn't understand what I wrote. THE HEADS THAT WERE DYNO TESTED ON THE WESTECH DYNO WERE THEN DYNO'D BACK TO BACK ON ANOTHER DYNO, TO THE NEW "FLOW IMPROVED" TFS HEAD, AND THE NEW "FLOW IMPROVED" TFS HEAD MADE 5 HP MORE. So in the original test the 1 HP difference in the TFS and ET head isn't enough to call better, but with the extra 5 HP it now carries over the original, I am confident it is the best 3.90 bore head available.

I would like to add some additional info on the TFS head versus the competition. Since it is a "rolled over" valve angle head, it should naturally carry a power advantage over any other 15-degree head. Mid lift airflow is the secret to making big power with any given cylinder head. On a street/strip engine with lift in the .600” range, the .300”, .400” and .500” airflow is the MOST IMPORTANT, even the .600” is not as important. This gives the flow curve more “area under the curve” and makes more power. I will go over the formula for area under the curve at the end. When you have a cylinder head on a small 3.90 bore the valve shrouding is terrible, and increasing mid lift airflow becomes VERY tough. In the past TFS has “moved” the intake AWAY from the cylinder wall to decrease the shrouding and increase mid lift flow. Their SBC heads feature GMPP Phase VI Bowtie valve spacing, which moves the intake valve away from the wall and increases mid lift airflow and power. Their Ford “High Port” head uses this same technology, but the rockers are crooked on the rocker stud, which is something that can’t be done with an LS1. Moving the valve away from the wall was not an option on the TFS LSx head, so rolling it over and then moving the spark plug away from the intake valve were the keys to getting the mid lift airflow the head has. The other thing that TFS had their hands on 1.5 years ago was the LS7 and L92 heads. They knew the 4.00” and 4.125” bore cylinder head market were going to be very tough to compete in, so they decided to focus their efforts on making the absolute best, true bolt on, 3.90 bore head available. TFS probably has as much development time in the TFS 215 head as ET has in all of their heads combined. So I hope this dispels some of the skepticism about this head, any questions please feel free to ask.

Formula for area under the curve that we will use for a street engine with approximately .600” lift uses the flow at .000” through .600” in .100” increments.

The formula for area under the curve is AREA=.05x((first value+second value)+(second value+third value))... etc. So lets compute the “area under the curve” for the TFS LS1 head using the flow numbers obtained from the TEA flow bench. .05x((0+66)+(66+138)+(138+218)+(218+272)+(272+308) +(308+324)=116.4 inch cfm

Now lets compute the area under the curve for the TEA LS6 Stg 2.5 head

.05x((0+69)+(69+140)+(140+203)+(203+255)+(255+295) +(295+320)=112.2 inch cfm

Lets say we could somehow get the LS6 head on the same 3.90 bore to flow over 320 at .500 and a whopping 340 and recalculate the area under the curve.

.05x((0+69)+(69+140)+(140+203)+(203+255)+(255+320) +(320+340)=115.7 inch cfm

So, WOW, can you believe that? A “theoretical” head that could flow 340 on a 3.90 bore STILL does not have as much “area under the curve” as the TFS head. So you can start to understand WHY mid lift flow is so important and why the TFS head makes as much power as it does.

Cobraeater

Actually, I read your post a couple more times when you first posted it and then I deleted my post.

Blue Meanie

iTrader: (3)

Just got back from Norris Motorsports and the first dyno pull with the TEA trick flows installed. Keep in mind Next Level's Dyno is about 5% low from what people have said. It made 419 untuned with a pig fat AFR and the crappy Volant airbox. Should pick up nice numbers when its tuned, final numbers tomorrow morning.

JNorris

iTrader: (4)

I voted for the TEA Trick Flow heads. I am a little biased because I run the Trick Flow heads and before that I ran the TEA Stage 1.5 5.3l heads.

I am not a dyno racer and even though I do believe it is a good tuning tool I still prefer to do all my tuning on street and WOT tuning at the track.
My TEA 5.3 heads were very good and put my car in the high 10s in the ¼ @ 121+mph in real good (cold) racing conditions with a very mild TR224 cam and with a kind of mild 230/230 cam. The car would run in 11.25-11.35 range in the heat of summer.

A while ago I was talking to Brian about the new Trick Flow heads and he mentioned that they would be a good upgrade to my existing TEA heads. I had always heard good things about Trick Flow products and I knew that TEA made a great product so I decided to give them a try.

A short time later I received the new Trick Flow heads and let me tell you that the quality is unbelievable! Here is a link to the pictures. https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/519140-trick-flow-ls1-head-pictures-inside.html

I bought a FAST 90 intake. I installed the heads and intake. After a few weekends of track time and tuning the package rewarded me with a few 10.9x @ 122+mph and this was in the Alabama summer time heat and humidity.
This represents an approximate .4 improvement in the ¼ mile which in my opinion is very impressive for just a head and intake swap on a car that was already running ~11.3x.

I am sure that my peak power increased but there is no question that the power under the curve was massively increased.

Keep in mind that all these passes are all motor on a stock short block in a ~3400lb 98 Z28.
IMO you cannot go wrong with any of the TEA products.

Good luck with your decision.

John

DavidNJ

Well, first the 245 ET is a much bigger head than the others. Second, the CNC versions of all of them (TF, ET, AFR, and Dart) are probably pretty similar in result. Sure one may be a few HP stronger, but not enough to notice unless you are racing dynos or in a really tight rule restricted class. In that case, you probably wouldn't be allowed to use these heads; at least not the 13.5 and 11 degree ones.

Next, I would probably agree that the new LS7 stuff is just better. Since only ET has an LS7 4" bore head, that choice is easy. One caveat that others will know better: the intake valve may be rather heavy. Large diameter, stainless steel, and I believe long stem. ET or your cam builder would know if you should use titanium intakes. One problem with hydraulic lfters.

Beast96Z

iTrader: (21)

Sorry if that came out touchy. I wasn't dispelling that the heads don't make power, because they do, that I mentioned, and that is why I bought them from you. I can also shed more light on the situation. I sold the heads because I was buying a larger motor with TEA/AFR's on it. The owner of the 2.5's I sold, took them to Larry Meaux, and had them flow tested on his bench to check against the sheet that was sent with the heads. I was some what surprised after he sent me the results back, and really a bit dissapointed. Larry had to do quite a bit of work to get them "close" to the numbers advertised, but even he couldn't get them to the results on the sheet without causing problems in other area's. However, when it comes down to it, I'd buy from you again if I had a motor suited for these heads. Flow wars aren't everything, and you guy's heads have always been consistant performers. Not to mention the customer service was great. I just wish ya'll would buy a damn Superflow bench so we could see what is going on on a level playing field. Obviouslly Flow Data? and Superflow don't play well together. Once again, sorry for sounding harsh, it wasn't meant to come across that way.

vettenuts

iTrader: (4)

I went with Dart 205's. A few reasons. The parts quality was high, i.e., valves, springs, retainers, etc. Dart also has a good reputation. I may have left a few HP on the table over say AFR, and I assumed that in my decision. But I also bought the heads for $1,300 and have the potential for later porting if I want when Dart develops their CNC programming (at least this is my plan). With the money I saved, I installed a set of Morel lifters and some other goodies that I might not have done if I had spent more on the heads. Its all a trade-off in the end. Don't think you can go wrong with any of them as long as they fit your plans for the car.

Been reading this thread though, and the TFS heads sound pretty impressive. Good luck with your decision, there certainly are a lot more choices out there now

Mike Norris

iTrader: (10)

Hey All,

We just finished up tuning BlueMeanies TEA TFS car last night late and did a check up run this morning. I figured I would pass on the results here for y'all.

First let me say that I have the utmost respect for Brian Tooley as he is one of the handful or less cylinder head guys that I have any faith in. There are a lot of "head porter's" out there and people fall into the big runner, flow numbers game all the time. They can claim xxx CFM flow with an open intake port, but bolt on an intake it drops 30-40 CFM. Then take a good head with the same or slightly lower open intake port CFM only drops 20-25 CFM with an intake on it.

Some heads are good out of the box as shipped, others have a great casting that, when worked right by the right person, works fantastic. And a lot of folks fall into the sales trap of a pretty head has to work. Our CNC heads always missed some small areas in the ports and/or chambers, but work just as well as an AFR 205. The AFR's look a lot better since they start with a smaller port and pretty much need to machine every portion and they work great. But I have seen some polished chambers and ports that look grat, but only make 10-15 RWHP over stock heads.

Anyhow, now for the results. SAE corrected only my lazy dyno was 458 RWHP and 404 RWT. STD corrected was 469 RWHP and 414 RWT. Like JP stated in some tests my dyno has read up to 5-6% lower then other local dyno's. I would say there is maybe a 3% lower reading on our dyno, so as an educated guess my STD numbers may be closer to an SAE number. All specuation and the numbers are here for all to judge. As far as the rest of the combination, JP can chime in on that.

Hope this helps and Brian, I will be calling you soon.

Mike Norris

Fenster

iTrader: (3)

Great discussion so far. Good information and good debate. Stuff I like to see when I am shopping for a set of cylinder heads for the future.

getusum

iTrader: (42)

New to the site. Brayan @ LME is building my 408. He suggested the trickflows, I've heard nothing but praise from the afr guys. Spoke with Tooley, gave me me some awesome info. Now, I just got off the phone with a guy @ trickflow...won't put his name out there. Ask his oppinion on the new ls1 heads, and he stuttered, uh like I know they've researched them for over a year, and uh, uh, i think they flow good numbers...next question, why should I get your heads over the afr's?..Again, u, uh, I don't know about the afr's, don't have the info available... Hmmm, your company has been researching over a year and you can't give a potential customer some crucial info on your product?...Sorry guys, from that conversation, it almost makes me 99.9% on going with the afrs....

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

Seems to me all of the "premium" CNC heads have been producing similar results....especially if you look at the averages. Valve angles and hype aside, look thru the dyno results section with an open mind and tell me if that statement is really far off base....I dont think it is.

And to be fair, the ETP, DART's, and obviously the TFS heads have far less results to compare than our own brand simply due to the fact we were first to market, so as additional results roll in, the pecking order of things may or may not be more clearly defined.

Once again though, the AFR's have consistantly been strong performing heads from the day they started rolling off of our assembly line two years ago.....and don't think for a minute that happened without any fanfare here at AFR. We never have had to make excuses about "old programs" or anything else for that matter and I'd like to think all of our customers that run our heads are completely satisfied.

Also, to comment on what's been touched on by others, comparing the TFS posted flow numbers to AFR, ETP, or anyone else is as useless as trying to compare dyno results from a Mustang and a DynoJet....two very different types of machinery trying to compare the same thing. Even comparing SuperFlow information from two different facilities is a dicey proposition due to all the different variables flowtesting ultimately lends itself to. And while some bold statement have been made about the new TFS heads being better than all others, wouldn't it make sense to let the real world independent results speak for themselves over the following months. How many other heads have been hyped to be the best only to fall short as the real info disseminated into the public forum. Maybe the TFS heads will be the shizznitz or maybe they wont....its far too early to tell. Lets face it, even the final numbers of the Norris dyno are average at best IMO considering all the hardware involved, but whether these results were stellar, average, or below average, isn't it more important what the next dozen (or more) test results show to get a larger cross section to actually compare.

Here are some AFR 205 results from the same shop and same dyno...the first is a 346 with minimal mods (no FAST 90 etc.) and a small 226 cam that mustered 440 HP/ 402 TQ. Obviously a FAST 90 would have brought the numbers at or close to 460 with much less cam timing.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...=260078&page=1


Here is another NLP AFR headed install, this one with a larger cam closer to the TFS car, but tested thru an A4 which we all know usually produce some 20-30 less RWHP than a similar car with a M6. This car produced 436 RWHP/ 399 TQ, once again only utilizing an LS6 intake. Extremely strong results considering what a FAST 90 would have added and the fact these numbers were through an auto.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...=284331&page=1


Last but not least, although not the same displacement and more of an apples and oranges comparison, this AFR headed pump gas 383 really made some steam on Mike's stingy dyno....508 HP/ 466 TQ.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/401330-nlp-383-2001-z06-dyno-results-508rwhp.html


What does this all mean?....Im sure different things to different people but it certainly confirms the fact the bolt on emissions legal AFR's are still in the hunt, in light of the fact we opted to produce a cylinder head that still retained all of the factory geometry.

Assuming the results continue to fall inline with what we have seen and the difference from the various premium heads are too close to call, customer service, product support, and reputation are other things I would strongly consider when making a purchase such as this....and of course who's nuts you want to swing on when threads like this come up over and over and over again....

Thanks,
Tony Mamo

JNorris

iTrader: (4)

Brian Tooley is the authority on the Trick Flow heads. I would not allow an uninformed sales rep/customer service rep to over shadow the recommendations of your engine builder or of Brian Tooley.

John

algws6

iTrader: (3)

All though dyno numbers are nice, i like track results. i mean look at JNorris time and especially MPH (through an auto). not saying that the rest haven't put down some good times but i am really impressed with the new heads on the block. What ever head you decide to go with just rember combo, combo, combo.

Brian Tooley Racing

iTrader: (13)

You hit the nail on the head, which is why I think having heads that can ship in a few days as compared to a few weeks or months, is one of the key strengths of the TFS heads.

JZ'sTA

iTrader: (23)

I agree 100%. The time frame alone is awsome.

chrismcdaniel

iTrader: (14)

oh, trust me, im going to have a killer combo when its all done. Im going to let LME Do EVERYTHING at their shop befor it gets to me, port matching the Vic. Jr, Porting the Vic. Jr. and haveing a cam designed around the free flowing heads and intake.

Brian Tooley Racing

iTrader: (13)

You know it's more then just hype, if I am confident enough to come on here, stake my reputation, and say that the TFS heads are the best 3.90 bore heads on the market, then you know it holds true. You know about the dyno testing at Westech, and trust me, the improved valve job was worth another 5 hp over the Westech heads. You sort through dyno posts picking and choosing good numbers, but fail to bring up posts like this one at NLP where the guy couldn't break 400 RWHP with your heads through a A4?

https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...hlight=NLP+AFR

Or this guy, 416 RWHP and 384 RWTQ with a Vette MN6?

https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/391049-afr-224-228-cam-installed.html

These are the results I have gotten back from some of our other customers with the new TFS heads.

Built shortblock 347 through an A4.......451 RWHP

Z06 through a STOCK CAT BACK, no cut out.......466 RWHP

I am not trying to take away from what the AFR heads have achieved. I was one of the people that made a reply about how good I thought your heads were to flow over 300 on our bench without being touched by hand, and if you will remember the heads did flow 2-3 cfm more on our bench then what you advertise.

Fast forward 2 years, TFS has a head that flows 325 @ .600 on our bench, with killer midlift, quite abit better flow then what they advertise, without being touched by hand. I can post the 205 flow numbers compared to the TFS 215 off of OUR bench if you like, I have flow numbers off more then one set of 205's, and they did not flow the same, the latter ones with the changed intake valve flowed more midlift but stalled before .600" lift.

So it is amazing what 2 years can bring along, I know the internet tactics that some use, make enough posts and hype and all will believe. Am I guilty of the hype, I guess so, but when something as good as the TFS comes along, with better FLOW NUMBERS, DYNO NUMBERS, QUALITY, AVAILIBILITY, it just makes sense to let the public know.

Mike Norris

iTrader: (10)

One other comment I would like to say is that the AFR heads as they are shipped from AFR seem to be out of the box the best so far. I have yet to see what ET ships or test them, but word is they are excellent out of the box also. A company I deal with has a killer program for a Dart casting that runs with the heads mentioned in this thread, but the Darts as delivered from Dart have a lot to be desired. I believe the base TFS heads are in the same boat, but put them in the hands of someone like Brian and they are up with the elite also.

The nice thing is that even though the Dart and TFS heads are being worked, the cost is not out of line with AFR and ET giving everyone choices for sure.

I personally can not say what I prefer as I have used several AFR sets with usually excellent results. Most of the lower results are cars that we have not assembled or there is no previous history on the car from a base dyno standpoint.

Hope this helps.

Mike Norris

DavidNJ

Brian, I thought this thread was a for a 4.03 bore 408.

Brian and Tony, since it uses a LS7 intake, how would you rate the 4" bore ET LS7 combo? Does the intake give it an edge?

JNorris

iTrader: (4)

I want to be sure that we are all on the same page as far as how the Trick Flow, Dart, AFR, and ET heads are delivered unless you pay for some extra work.

The Trick Flow heads are purchased and delivered as fully CNC ported heads. They are ready to go “out of the box”. As far as I know TEA developed and performs the CNC porting on all the Trick Flow LS1 heads whether you buy the complete from Summit or TEA or another dealer. The heads and not CNC ported if you buy them as bare cores.

The AFR heads are purchased and delivered as fully CNC ported heads. They are ready to go “out of the box”. The heads and not CNC ported if you buy them as bare cores.

The Dart heads are purchased and delivered from Dart in an “as cast” form with no CNC porting. They are ready to go “out of the box” but they have no porting done.

The ETP heads are purchased and delivered as fully CNC ported heads. They are ready to go “out of the box”.


John