I've had the idea of a TT LS1 for a while now and to make it work i would get some very low compression pistons, 8:1 or maybe a little bit lower that way you can throw lots of boost into the motor w/o detonation. With a high comp ratio you can make the same power with less boost but you will need race fuel from what I understand. The supras engine "2JZ-GTE" is very built from the factory and has 7 main caps, i've heard 800RWHP on stock motor with lots of boost. Same with the grand nat block which is amazing that they are so built with only 4 main caps. Im not so sure how the LS1 block would hold up to that kinda power and i'd put bulletproof internal's just to be safe. Turbo driven concepts made a 351 twin turbo mustang that puts something like 1160 to the wheels and I think its still streetable.

 

The Supra combustion chamber is almost identical to a Hemi. They can run a ton of boost, as long as they get the fuel there, and be fairly safe. The hemi head is not prone to hot spots and reduces detonation and combustion problems associated with boosted intake scenerios. Toyota provided the Supra with a very good starting point and the tweakers have been able to push it. I have personally been in a "over 700rwhp" Supra that has not had the heads off the stock motor. A lot of changes to the turbo system, though....

I will stick to the V8s as provided by GM, though....

Todd

 

Interesting stuff.

So far, the main reasons for the Supra being so stout are strong bottem end, lower compression, and heads that are desinged to reduce the chances of detonation.

Anyone else care to add their input?

Also how does the Supra's drivetrain hold up to those 700+rwhp engines?

 

But, you can build the LS1 to be able to handle this level of power.

 

The Supra A4 trannies end up needing a rebuild, no surprise there. They have some 2-3 disk clutches out there some of which are made by RPS. There is an article on RPS clutches in the latest issue of Turbo Magazine. Also a Supra TT on the cover.

Supras have some killer connecting rods and other moving parts. Some of the fast ones are spinning up to 7500 rpms.

 

From what I have seen, it is due solely to the fact that the Supra was overengineered from the factory to be a bulletproof turbo vehicle. The engine itself has very little power on its own, but is designed to hold extraordinary amounts of boost. Case in point, there is a guy locally here that has a T-88 Supra that put down 840+ rwhp with only cams swapped in the engine. He did 720 or so with the stock cams. This was at 28lbs of boost on the stock engine. His dyno graph shows that until the turbo kicks in at 4500-5000 rpm however, he is making under 150hp on the engine alone.

Seeing as how LS1's have put down well over 500 rwhp at about 6 lbs of boost, I would say that an LS1 properly set up will have WAY more potential for hp than the Supra engine plus it will still have a reasonable power curve at regular driving speeds.

It is a huge advantage to have a FI setup straight from the factory. Unfortunately for us LS1 guys, we need guys like Nick Agostino and Rob Raymer to spend their money figuring out how to get it to work rather than having GM build us a good base. Rob Raymer is putting down 700+ rwhp on the stock LS1 crank. I would say when the LS1 gets the FI bugs worked out, Supras will no longer be thought of as the only powerhouse cars on the street.

 

A properly setup turbo LS1 can and would completely annihilate any Supra ever built. I've helped maintain a 2200 hp twin turbo Chevy Big Block and it just get's even worse. The Supra is a more advance engined in as far as it's heads but it couldn't hold off a hard core american V8 turbo effort but it is damn impressive for stock! The Supra engine is simply too small to do battle with an amercan V8 turbo. It comes down to the engine underneath it all and the Supra's a joke without the turbos. Put a turbo on an american V8 and all hell breaks loose. The faster small block turbo V8 cars make 1800 hp and go near 200 in the quarter and something like an NMCA Big Block pro streeter is a 6 second car even at 3000 pounds and over 215mph! <img src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" border="0">

 

First off I own an LS1 T/A (N/A), not trying to start a flame war.

From what I have noticed, how is it the modified Turbo Supra engine with smaller displacement can make substantially more power than the larger (5.7L) displacement turbo and S/C LS1 engines?

Is it the fact that the Supra engines are designed for boost from the factory? Is it the 4 valves per cylinder? They "breath" better?

Some Supras claim 700+rwhp without even removing the head(s)!!!

One would think that a turbo LS1 built properly would make way more power than a turbo 3.0L six cylinder, right?

So what's the hold up on the LS1? The intake?

Maybe the aftermarket for the Supra is better than the LS1 aftermarket.

Anyone have some technical answers.

 

Mostly it's the fact that you can run 30psi on a stock Supra shortblock.

Running 15psi on an LS1 is a mission in itself. Displacement isn't as much a factor when your running that much boost

 

Exactly, it’s all about how much boost they can run. Why can they run so much more boost? Because they are setup from the factory for FI. What’s another good example of a smaller motor (3.8L) that’s able to run a lot of boost and make gobs more power than an LS1 on a blower or turbo at safe levels? GM’s turbo buick 3.8L V6. GNs are some fast cars.

 

From what I understand, the LS1 has a problem with the heads lifting off the block when under a lot of boost. That, and other things already mentioned are what really pisses me off about our engines. Someday I would love to build up a bulletproof, streetable 800+ TT LS1. That sure wouldn't happen today. Hopefully someday the ongoing R&D will allow that to come true. The times and #'s of FI LS1's is really unimpressive to me. It's pretty bad when a H/C engine with a stock bottom end can outrun a LS1 with a damn supercharger.

 

I know this isn't an answer to your question, but do you realize that LS1's with much, much less RWHP N/A than those 700-800RWHP TT Supras get whipped in the 1/4 mile by the LS1's.
HP doesn't mean ****.

Thats what I think is kind of weird. The TT Supras seem to be stuck in the 11's for the most part.

Also, we have some TT LS1's with RWHP in the 600's and they too are slower than the N/A LS1's which put out only 470-550 RWHP.

Strange!

 

As said before the Supra's have a power band like a dirt bike.Nothing till 4k rpms then BAM it goes through the roof.Not appealling to me.
I'm sure an LS1 can be built to make huge power and be street drivable.It just takes time.

 

There really hardly any development on these kinds of engines since they really don't need forced induction to run fast. On the other hand Japanese cars can't go fast without some kind of super charger or turbo since they are so slow on motor only. As a result there is a good and developed aftermarket (at least as compared to the american stuff) for these Japanese turbo cars. The Supra is the King of them all and truly hauls ***. It's also a very strong engine right from the factory being built up as a turbo.

Some people on this forum know Jeff from MTI for instance who had a turbo on his 347 mustang. It went 8s !! Turbo american cars will always be faster. <img src="gr_tounge.gif" border="0">

 

I disagree with 11BRAVO, LS1 hi boost power is not that far off. ALL engine designs are full of compromises. GM used only 4 headbolts per cylinder because intake port design came first.THANK GOD! Copper head gaskets and block o-ringing will fix most of this "HEAD LIFTING" problem. Kick *** N/A design is way more important than Slug total boost reliability!
Look at FORD lightning, take away blower and you got a good looking FARM piece of equipment! <img src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" border="0" alt="[jester]" />

 

[quote]Originally posted by LS1derfull:
<strong>GM used only 4 headbolts per cylinder because intake port design came first.THANK GOD! Copper head gaskets and block o-ringing will fix most of this "HEAD LIFTING" problem. </strong><hr></blockquote>

You're correct, but there are still some problems even with copper gaskets and O-rings. When you get over roughly 850fwhp (700-750rwhp), even O-rings and copper gaskets can't handle it.
We know this from experience. Unfortunately.

The biggest problem comes from the 4 head bolts per cylinder, and the small diameter of those bolts. The next problem comes from the thin deck surface of the LS1 head. We are still working with Nick Agostino on resolving these issues, and we will hopefully be able to share that information soon.

All I can say, is that Supra's are awesome cars! Any stock shortblock that is capable of 800rwhp, deserves some serious respect. American car or not...

 

[quote]Originally posted by Rob Raymer:
<strong>

All I can say, is that Supra's are awesome cars! Any stock shortblock that is capable of 800rwhp, deserves some serious respect. American car or not...</strong><hr></blockquote>

The most un-biased real-world quote I've seen.

I fully agree!
<img src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

 

I got mucho respecto for Supras....they're some mean machines. However, it doesn't mean that since they're pushin out 800rwhp that they are fast in the quarter mile. HP numbers don't mean **** unless you can can apply it correctly and show you can down the track.

Miah

 

[quote]Originally posted by DevilBird:
<strong>I got mucho respecto for Supras....they're some mean machines. However, it doesn't mean that since they're pushin out 800rwhp that they are fast in the quarter mile. HP numbers don't mean **** unless you can can apply it correctly and show you can down the track.

Miah</strong><hr></blockquote>

Excellent point <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">

I'd like to add that making 150 ponies <img src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" border="0" alt="[devil]" /> until 3500-4K rpm's ain't my cup-of-tea either <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">

 

Designing and building an engine that requires major boost to make impressive power is like throwing in the towel! That doesn't deserve respect, and it doesn't push technology forward either! SUPRA in JAPANESE means boring! <img src="graemlins/gr_barf.gif" border="0" alt="[barf]" />