Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long)
02-18-2002, 04:23 PM
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Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) Before I start, I want to let everyone know that this in no way is meant to reflect bad on any said shops mentioned in this note, but more of information on my experiences with Patterson Automotive. I bought the motor from Xcessive Performance in Houston, and they have been *EXTREMELY* helpful and provide top-notch work. I wanted to make that clear. What you're about to read is in no way Xcessive's fault...they didn't build the motor, they just installed it. I have been a customer of theirs for years (since I bought the car in Sep. '97) and have always trusted them with the car, and always will.
About two years ago, I bought a 402ci LS1 from Xcessive Performance because I had a problem with my stock motor which threw two rods out the side of the block. I had the car towed to Xcessive Performance, and they pulled the motor out of the car. This thing was in *horrible* shape. The block was cracked and had two big holes on the side of it.
I provided Xcessive Performance with a brand new block, which they sent off to Patterson Automotive to build. My heads were also destroyed due to the engine blowing up and needed to be repaired. All of this was given to Patterson Automotive.
This car is my daily driver, and I made this clear to Patterson Automotive before they got the motor. Nearly 4 months later the motor was assembled, and the short block arrived at Xcessive Performance.
Here are pictures of the finished product:
Shortblock Top
Shortblock Bottom
As you can see, the motor looked very nice. I was pretty happy when I received the heads as well.
Here are before pictures:
Combustion Chamber Close-Up
Combustion Chamber Close-Up 2
Complete Head
The heads were destroyed (or so I thought). All of the valves were bent and the last combustion chamber on cylinder #7 was toast. I didn't think this was repairable. The heads came out looking brand new, you couldn't even tell.
After the motor was done, Xcessive did an excellent job of putting everything into the car and doing a very nice and neat install. They called me to come pick up the car and a week later we put it on the dyno. I was expecting to lay down a real stellar number. We were using a big cam (at the time) which was a 228/234 -- .539/.547 @ 112LSA cam. To my disappointment, it only made 405rwhp / 470rwtq. The motor quit making power over 5900rpm and dropped pretty steadily to the 6500rpm red-line.
We started to do some more mods to the car. We put the FLP Headers on the car (MAC's were on there) and gained a significant amount of power (roughly 15rwhp across the band). I was pretty happy with this. Then, we installed Crane 1.8 Gold Rocker Arms and gained another 10rwhp. This brought us up to roughly 430rwhp. At this time, the LS6 intakes were just coming out. I bought one and stuck it on the car....and gained 0rwhp!!! This is where I started to get disappointed. At this point, I had already needed to run block sealant through the motor a few times to keep water out of the oil. This helped for a little bit. Then, a head gasket blew, which got replaced shortly after.
The car ran great for about a year. When I first got it, the best I ever got it to run was an 11.2 @ 119.67mph (1.51 60'). This wasn't too bad, but not what I was looking for. Especially with the size of the motor and the amount of money I had spent on it. Over time the motor was making less and less power. The last time that I dyno'd it at a dyno day, it made 385rwhp through full exhaust, and 405rwhp with open headers. This is significantly less than before. We made some changes at Xcessive and the most we could get was 415rwhp. I knew something was wrong with the motor, but at the time I didn't think much of it (even though I should have). I thought the cam was too small for that motor (which it probably was). So I decided to swap cams and do some checking on the heads too.
My friend Brent (One Monkey), his brother, Phillip and I started the tear down and noticed some very disturbing things. The whole inside of the motor was very sludgy. Almost like a motor that had about 150,000 miles on it. It was very sticky if you touched it. In order to keep good oil pressure I had to run 15w30 oil, otherwise the 10w30 and 5w30 would break down too much and I'd have roughly 10psi at idle. It was pretty bad.
Brent saw something right away which caught his eye. The pistons weren't the right kind!! <img src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" border="0"> !!! We measured the valve reliefs on the heads and they were 23 degrees instead of 15 degrees!! They were huge reliefs too, I could fit my whole thumb in there no problem. If you look in the pictures up close you can see what I'm talking about. So we pulled the pistons out with the rods. Patterson Automotive used a very heavy SBC piston (off-the-shelf) instead of a JE LS1 piston. A set of pistons like these probably costs roughly $500 when I spoke with SRP. However, he used a set of Oliver rods which run roughly $1300. So....a set of kick-*** rods with a set of generic pistons? That doesn't quite add up....let alone the fact that the pistons weren't even the right kind. Also on a side note, the bore was slightly bigger than I thought it was. Instead of being a 4.000" bore, it was actually a 4.030".....making it a 409ci whereas Patterson Automotive told me it was a 402ci. Insignificant....but still strange.
We went ahead and installed the new cam and the heads back on the car. Everything seemed to check out fine. We started up the car and it sounded real nice. It revved up real fast and did everything it was supposed to. I was real happy with it. We went and drove it around for a little while. After driving for about 30 minutes, we're driving back into the neighborhood and the car starts to make a very weird clanking sound, and we turn the car off immediately. We let it sit there for a minute, and we tried to turn the car on. The car wouldn't start!! After another try, the starter broke. <img src="gr_sad.gif" border="0"> This was starting to look very bad. We pull the car back into the garage, and I go pick up a new starter. We hook the new one up, start the car....same thing!! It broke in the same place! <img src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" border="0"> We try to turn the motor over and it was completely locked up. It would turn about 1/2 of a crank rotation counter clockwise, and lock up clockwise. I was pretty pissed off at this point.
We pulled the motor apart and found pieces of a valve all over the intake. We pulled the heads off, and it was very clear what was wrong. The valve reliefs were not the right kind. The valves were completely missing the valve relief and actually hitting the corner. It looked like the valve hit the piston hard enough to knock another ridge into it about .300" deep. It was really bad. On cylinder #6 it hit so hard that it broke the valve head, the head punched itself through the piston, and bounced around inside the cylinder and on the top of the head, crushing the spark plug inside the head. When we pulled the timing chain cover off, the timing chain had gotten caught around the oil pump and was lodged in there. We couldn't get that out either. After some pulling and cussing we finally got everything out. When we pulled the crank out, fortunately it was ok....not a scratch on it. So that worked out to my benefit.
I went to Patterson Automotive and showed him all 8 pistons, including the one which was destroyed. I told him everything that we saw to be wrong, and his excuse was that the timing chain slipped. He insisted that the pistons were correct. To my knowledge, LS1's don't use 23 degree pistons, but 15 degree pistons. I told him this, and it was a pointless argument. Then I told him about the bearings and he said, "Look....I built the motor, I should know." We talked some more and he asked me what my plans were. I told him that I may want to go to a dished piston and he says, "Why in the hell would you want to do that? You'll lose compression, and that'll lose power." I said if I go any higher on the compression that the car will detonate its *** off. He said absolutely not, and that he had dozens of cars running around Houston with 12.5 - 13.0:1 compression that run on pump gas <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> . Yeah, sure. If there are, I sure haven't seen any. I asked him that maybe if I had an electric water pump that was reverse cooled I'd consider it, but until then I wouldn't. So he says, "What're you talking about? The LS1 *IS* reverse-cooled!" I replied, "Umm....no it's not. If it was, nobody would be wanting to make a reverse-cooled water pump for it. There'd be no market." So he shows me an LS1 block and heads, explaining to me the flow of the water and how it goes to the heads and the block next. <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0"> I couldn't believe my ears. At this point, I took my pistons, rods, and left....vowing never to go back to that shop again.
The next day, Patterson Automotive started spreading rumors about my car that it was going to blow up again, that Brent had no idea what he was doing, and started making these very crazy claims. It was getting way out of hand. I decided not to say anything and just continue building the motor.
When we took the bearings off of the rods, I was looking at the model number. Usually on new cranks, people use the H bearings (standard). However, these bearings were 1's. I was confused because the crank had never been turned or anything (at least to my knowledge) so I didn't quite understand why. Patterson Automotive couldn't explain this to me.
I went to Patterson Automotive and asked him to get me the bearings for my motor because I was putting in all new bearings. This wasn't a problem. However, once again I got 1's instead of H's. Brent had measured the journals and 1's were just not going to work. I had told this to Patterson Automotive and was told that Brent had no idea what he was doing. I wrote it off as a bad deal, and paid for the bearings. I had no idea what bearings cost at the time, but just for rod bearings and main bearings, was roughly $150!!! I was shocked once I found out how much those things were worth.
After we got everything situated that we needed, Brent took the motor to the school. It turned out that the reason the motor was so sludgy was because the tolerances were too tight in the motor. The friction from the tolerances being too tight generated a lot of heat and started to melt the oil inside the motor, and make it very gummy...sticking to the walls in the block and the heads. This started to make a lot of sense since the car used to run unusually warm as well.
Due to the neglect of Patterson Automotive, I was out a *TON* of money for the repair of the motor and the heads.
New Pistons = $1080
New Bearings = $150 (Patterson's Bearings) + $90 (correct bearings)
New Head Castings = $400
New Set of Valves = $500
Brent re-porting the heads = not mentioning the price
New Timing Set + Katech Chain = $250
New Head Bolts = $80
New Gaskets + Misc. Items = $200
New Starter = $200
Total = $2950 + Shipping / Tax
I'm sure there are other things I am forgetting, but these are the main ones that come to mind. It is very frustrating to let a "professional" build a motor for you and then get this type of ****. Especially when the original motor cost me in excess of $7000. It's ridiculous.
There's more to this story. I had a problem with the water consuming a lot of coolant and it going into the oil. It started getting to the point that I would have to refill the radiator almost everyday....and kept getting worse. I tried running Bars Leak through it (per Patterson's recommendation) numerous times and it didn't do anything but make the problem worse. We had to pull the motor out again. After investigating the block, the motor had dropped sleeves #4 and #6. Who knows how long the sleeve has been dropping, because I have had the water consumption problem for over a year, and it kept getting gradually worse. This caused the head gaskets to leak as well and basically made a big mess.
The motor that Patterson Automotive built for me is basically junk at this point. It's not worth resleeving this block and trying to make it work. Who knows what else is wrong with it. Everything else that Brent fixed with the motor seemed to have a positive effect. There was no burnt oil after numerous passes down the track and street races. The only problem was the coolant....but like I said, that was a problem with the two dropped sleeves.
Patterson Automotive also started to spread rumors about how my car made the same amount of power as it did before. This is *NOT* true. The car actually made a significant amount of power more, in fact the curves aren't even remotely close. It baffles me that Patterson Automotive had to stoop to this level of professionalism (or lack thereof). I was expecting that maybe he would help me out since practically all of this is their shop's fault, however he has done nothing but blame me. I did not design the motor, Patterson Automotive did. I would've known better than to use 23 degree pistons in an LS1 motor. That's just asking for trouble.
Now I had to shell out $600 for a new block, $350 for new sleeves, as well as the machine work for getting my block re-done. I'm not sure when this will all be done, but I'm basically out $5000 because of Patterson Automotive's neglect, and I think it is very unacceptable.
I thought I would share my experience with this shop, and hope that nobody else in the future has this same experience.
Ethan
'98 Trans-Am
[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: MastaAce98 ]</p>
About two years ago, I bought a 402ci LS1 from Xcessive Performance because I had a problem with my stock motor which threw two rods out the side of the block. I had the car towed to Xcessive Performance, and they pulled the motor out of the car. This thing was in *horrible* shape. The block was cracked and had two big holes on the side of it.
I provided Xcessive Performance with a brand new block, which they sent off to Patterson Automotive to build. My heads were also destroyed due to the engine blowing up and needed to be repaired. All of this was given to Patterson Automotive.
This car is my daily driver, and I made this clear to Patterson Automotive before they got the motor. Nearly 4 months later the motor was assembled, and the short block arrived at Xcessive Performance.
Here are pictures of the finished product:
Shortblock Top
Shortblock Bottom
As you can see, the motor looked very nice. I was pretty happy when I received the heads as well.
Here are before pictures:
Combustion Chamber Close-Up
Combustion Chamber Close-Up 2
Complete Head
The heads were destroyed (or so I thought). All of the valves were bent and the last combustion chamber on cylinder #7 was toast. I didn't think this was repairable. The heads came out looking brand new, you couldn't even tell.
After the motor was done, Xcessive did an excellent job of putting everything into the car and doing a very nice and neat install. They called me to come pick up the car and a week later we put it on the dyno. I was expecting to lay down a real stellar number. We were using a big cam (at the time) which was a 228/234 -- .539/.547 @ 112LSA cam. To my disappointment, it only made 405rwhp / 470rwtq. The motor quit making power over 5900rpm and dropped pretty steadily to the 6500rpm red-line.
We started to do some more mods to the car. We put the FLP Headers on the car (MAC's were on there) and gained a significant amount of power (roughly 15rwhp across the band). I was pretty happy with this. Then, we installed Crane 1.8 Gold Rocker Arms and gained another 10rwhp. This brought us up to roughly 430rwhp. At this time, the LS6 intakes were just coming out. I bought one and stuck it on the car....and gained 0rwhp!!! This is where I started to get disappointed. At this point, I had already needed to run block sealant through the motor a few times to keep water out of the oil. This helped for a little bit. Then, a head gasket blew, which got replaced shortly after.
The car ran great for about a year. When I first got it, the best I ever got it to run was an 11.2 @ 119.67mph (1.51 60'). This wasn't too bad, but not what I was looking for. Especially with the size of the motor and the amount of money I had spent on it. Over time the motor was making less and less power. The last time that I dyno'd it at a dyno day, it made 385rwhp through full exhaust, and 405rwhp with open headers. This is significantly less than before. We made some changes at Xcessive and the most we could get was 415rwhp. I knew something was wrong with the motor, but at the time I didn't think much of it (even though I should have). I thought the cam was too small for that motor (which it probably was). So I decided to swap cams and do some checking on the heads too.
My friend Brent (One Monkey), his brother, Phillip and I started the tear down and noticed some very disturbing things. The whole inside of the motor was very sludgy. Almost like a motor that had about 150,000 miles on it. It was very sticky if you touched it. In order to keep good oil pressure I had to run 15w30 oil, otherwise the 10w30 and 5w30 would break down too much and I'd have roughly 10psi at idle. It was pretty bad.
Brent saw something right away which caught his eye. The pistons weren't the right kind!! <img src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" border="0"> !!! We measured the valve reliefs on the heads and they were 23 degrees instead of 15 degrees!! They were huge reliefs too, I could fit my whole thumb in there no problem. If you look in the pictures up close you can see what I'm talking about. So we pulled the pistons out with the rods. Patterson Automotive used a very heavy SBC piston (off-the-shelf) instead of a JE LS1 piston. A set of pistons like these probably costs roughly $500 when I spoke with SRP. However, he used a set of Oliver rods which run roughly $1300. So....a set of kick-*** rods with a set of generic pistons? That doesn't quite add up....let alone the fact that the pistons weren't even the right kind. Also on a side note, the bore was slightly bigger than I thought it was. Instead of being a 4.000" bore, it was actually a 4.030".....making it a 409ci whereas Patterson Automotive told me it was a 402ci. Insignificant....but still strange.
We went ahead and installed the new cam and the heads back on the car. Everything seemed to check out fine. We started up the car and it sounded real nice. It revved up real fast and did everything it was supposed to. I was real happy with it. We went and drove it around for a little while. After driving for about 30 minutes, we're driving back into the neighborhood and the car starts to make a very weird clanking sound, and we turn the car off immediately. We let it sit there for a minute, and we tried to turn the car on. The car wouldn't start!! After another try, the starter broke. <img src="gr_sad.gif" border="0"> This was starting to look very bad. We pull the car back into the garage, and I go pick up a new starter. We hook the new one up, start the car....same thing!! It broke in the same place! <img src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" border="0"> We try to turn the motor over and it was completely locked up. It would turn about 1/2 of a crank rotation counter clockwise, and lock up clockwise. I was pretty pissed off at this point.
We pulled the motor apart and found pieces of a valve all over the intake. We pulled the heads off, and it was very clear what was wrong. The valve reliefs were not the right kind. The valves were completely missing the valve relief and actually hitting the corner. It looked like the valve hit the piston hard enough to knock another ridge into it about .300" deep. It was really bad. On cylinder #6 it hit so hard that it broke the valve head, the head punched itself through the piston, and bounced around inside the cylinder and on the top of the head, crushing the spark plug inside the head. When we pulled the timing chain cover off, the timing chain had gotten caught around the oil pump and was lodged in there. We couldn't get that out either. After some pulling and cussing we finally got everything out. When we pulled the crank out, fortunately it was ok....not a scratch on it. So that worked out to my benefit.
I went to Patterson Automotive and showed him all 8 pistons, including the one which was destroyed. I told him everything that we saw to be wrong, and his excuse was that the timing chain slipped. He insisted that the pistons were correct. To my knowledge, LS1's don't use 23 degree pistons, but 15 degree pistons. I told him this, and it was a pointless argument. Then I told him about the bearings and he said, "Look....I built the motor, I should know." We talked some more and he asked me what my plans were. I told him that I may want to go to a dished piston and he says, "Why in the hell would you want to do that? You'll lose compression, and that'll lose power." I said if I go any higher on the compression that the car will detonate its *** off. He said absolutely not, and that he had dozens of cars running around Houston with 12.5 - 13.0:1 compression that run on pump gas <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> . Yeah, sure. If there are, I sure haven't seen any. I asked him that maybe if I had an electric water pump that was reverse cooled I'd consider it, but until then I wouldn't. So he says, "What're you talking about? The LS1 *IS* reverse-cooled!" I replied, "Umm....no it's not. If it was, nobody would be wanting to make a reverse-cooled water pump for it. There'd be no market." So he shows me an LS1 block and heads, explaining to me the flow of the water and how it goes to the heads and the block next. <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0"> I couldn't believe my ears. At this point, I took my pistons, rods, and left....vowing never to go back to that shop again.
The next day, Patterson Automotive started spreading rumors about my car that it was going to blow up again, that Brent had no idea what he was doing, and started making these very crazy claims. It was getting way out of hand. I decided not to say anything and just continue building the motor.
When we took the bearings off of the rods, I was looking at the model number. Usually on new cranks, people use the H bearings (standard). However, these bearings were 1's. I was confused because the crank had never been turned or anything (at least to my knowledge) so I didn't quite understand why. Patterson Automotive couldn't explain this to me.
I went to Patterson Automotive and asked him to get me the bearings for my motor because I was putting in all new bearings. This wasn't a problem. However, once again I got 1's instead of H's. Brent had measured the journals and 1's were just not going to work. I had told this to Patterson Automotive and was told that Brent had no idea what he was doing. I wrote it off as a bad deal, and paid for the bearings. I had no idea what bearings cost at the time, but just for rod bearings and main bearings, was roughly $150!!! I was shocked once I found out how much those things were worth.
After we got everything situated that we needed, Brent took the motor to the school. It turned out that the reason the motor was so sludgy was because the tolerances were too tight in the motor. The friction from the tolerances being too tight generated a lot of heat and started to melt the oil inside the motor, and make it very gummy...sticking to the walls in the block and the heads. This started to make a lot of sense since the car used to run unusually warm as well.
Due to the neglect of Patterson Automotive, I was out a *TON* of money for the repair of the motor and the heads.
New Pistons = $1080
New Bearings = $150 (Patterson's Bearings) + $90 (correct bearings)
New Head Castings = $400
New Set of Valves = $500
Brent re-porting the heads = not mentioning the price
New Timing Set + Katech Chain = $250
New Head Bolts = $80
New Gaskets + Misc. Items = $200
New Starter = $200
Total = $2950 + Shipping / Tax
I'm sure there are other things I am forgetting, but these are the main ones that come to mind. It is very frustrating to let a "professional" build a motor for you and then get this type of ****. Especially when the original motor cost me in excess of $7000. It's ridiculous.
There's more to this story. I had a problem with the water consuming a lot of coolant and it going into the oil. It started getting to the point that I would have to refill the radiator almost everyday....and kept getting worse. I tried running Bars Leak through it (per Patterson's recommendation) numerous times and it didn't do anything but make the problem worse. We had to pull the motor out again. After investigating the block, the motor had dropped sleeves #4 and #6. Who knows how long the sleeve has been dropping, because I have had the water consumption problem for over a year, and it kept getting gradually worse. This caused the head gaskets to leak as well and basically made a big mess.
The motor that Patterson Automotive built for me is basically junk at this point. It's not worth resleeving this block and trying to make it work. Who knows what else is wrong with it. Everything else that Brent fixed with the motor seemed to have a positive effect. There was no burnt oil after numerous passes down the track and street races. The only problem was the coolant....but like I said, that was a problem with the two dropped sleeves.
Patterson Automotive also started to spread rumors about how my car made the same amount of power as it did before. This is *NOT* true. The car actually made a significant amount of power more, in fact the curves aren't even remotely close. It baffles me that Patterson Automotive had to stoop to this level of professionalism (or lack thereof). I was expecting that maybe he would help me out since practically all of this is their shop's fault, however he has done nothing but blame me. I did not design the motor, Patterson Automotive did. I would've known better than to use 23 degree pistons in an LS1 motor. That's just asking for trouble.
Now I had to shell out $600 for a new block, $350 for new sleeves, as well as the machine work for getting my block re-done. I'm not sure when this will all be done, but I'm basically out $5000 because of Patterson Automotive's neglect, and I think it is very unacceptable.
I thought I would share my experience with this shop, and hope that nobody else in the future has this same experience.
Ethan
'98 Trans-Am
[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: MastaAce98 ]</p>
02-18-2002, 04:33 PM
#2
LS1Tech Co-Founder
iTrader: (34)
Re: Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) What's up Ethan.
I heard thru the grapevine you were having problems.
I broke a starter last year. It's a sick feeling knowing what it takes for that to happen.
I know what it's like to have problems after doing a built motor. I blew three head gaskets, and snapped a timing chain with the old motor before I gave up and trailered dRagULa to Agostino Racing Engines up in Toronto. You may recall that I had had a 222/224//113 Comp in the car and went 11.7@114mph a while ago. We then did the big cams and the motor kept popping headgaskets.... three of them. I ended up getting a 2nd shortblock after the timing chain snapped and shortblock #2 went 700 miles and blew another headgasket. I did a new cam, LS6 intake, and 4.10's only to go from 11.7@114mph to 11.6@116mph... not good.
I know it's hard, but there's light at the end of the tunnel. I have like 4,000 miles on my ARE iron block and it has never used a drop of coolant. With my OLD motor I would have to add a pint of coolant every time I drove it.
[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Pro Stock Johnny ]</p>
I heard thru the grapevine you were having problems.
I broke a starter last year. It's a sick feeling knowing what it takes for that to happen.
I know what it's like to have problems after doing a built motor. I blew three head gaskets, and snapped a timing chain with the old motor before I gave up and trailered dRagULa to Agostino Racing Engines up in Toronto. You may recall that I had had a 222/224//113 Comp in the car and went 11.7@114mph a while ago. We then did the big cams and the motor kept popping headgaskets.... three of them. I ended up getting a 2nd shortblock after the timing chain snapped and shortblock #2 went 700 miles and blew another headgasket. I did a new cam, LS6 intake, and 4.10's only to go from 11.7@114mph to 11.6@116mph... not good.
I know it's hard, but there's light at the end of the tunnel. I have like 4,000 miles on my ARE iron block and it has never used a drop of coolant. With my OLD motor I would have to add a pint of coolant every time I drove it.
[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Pro Stock Johnny ]</p>
02-18-2002, 04:53 PM
#3
Re: Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) Holy **** Ethan, you should contact a lawyer and try to get some compensation for all these issues and expenses you have incurred. What a nightmare story man!
Xcessive is a good shop, but I hope they have learned from this and are going with different machine shops for their engines.
Tony
Xcessive is a good shop, but I hope they have learned from this and are going with different machine shops for their engines.
Tony
02-18-2002, 05:45 PM
#4
TECH Addict
Re: Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) Mastaace 98, that is a real tragic story, the only thing i think you used poor judgement about is putting bigger cam in after determining you had wrong valve reliefs, that doesnt excuse Patterson but it would have been less grief if you stopped at that point. I think they owe you big i hope you persue some justice good luck. <img src="gr_sad.gif" border="0">
02-18-2002, 06:29 PM
#5
D(irecto)r Pepper
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Houston Raceway Park...in TEXAS.
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Re: Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) Ethan, good for you. I am glad you finally posted this info. I kept quiet about all your probs like you asked me to. I am glad to see you finally "letting the cat out of the bag".
The way you were treated by Patterson sounds like nothing short of contempt.
I just hope with your post you prevent some other fella from getting screwed like you were.
Dang that sucks.
P.S., on another note.
I REALLY need my (new)stock converter back from you.
Please email me when we can do this. I can arrange to have it picked up from you or whatever.
Let me know something ASAP.
Good luck with your car and tell Brent "howdy" for me. Would ya? <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Raughammer ]</p>
The way you were treated by Patterson sounds like nothing short of contempt.
I just hope with your post you prevent some other fella from getting screwed like you were.
Dang that sucks.
P.S., on another note.
I REALLY need my (new)stock converter back from you.
Please email me when we can do this. I can arrange to have it picked up from you or whatever.
Let me know something ASAP.
Good luck with your car and tell Brent "howdy" for me. Would ya? <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Raughammer ]</p>
02-18-2002, 07:47 PM
#6
Launching!
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Re: Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) Hey John C !! Whats up bro, heard you had lots of positve things too say about the project ...... it's wired how much heat we got for helping Ethan on this. But we dicided too let people talk. I guess Ethan got tired of the BS.
The clerance on the pistons on his old motor was so bad it was as if the floating piston pins, were press fit. The bearing clerance was way off. the piston too wall clerance was off. amoung other things. The funny thing about this, is along the way almost anyone who came across the story had a simmilar story about PAT.. but I still dicided too leave it alone. So did Ethan. Yet I got **** over it. Pat is also very good at BSing his costumers. My favorit was that it made the same Power........ <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> Well I know Ethan will get tired of holding that back soon enough too. I think he's planing on racing in an up coming F-body event. then we will see. <img src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" border="0" alt="[devil]" />
I can't quite figuer out how guys like this stay in Business. feeding BS too people. I not only build Motors, I race. I am out there playing with my ride just the same, and this stuff cost $$$. so I don't have any respect for guys that screw you over on purpose. When I told Ethan that the piston was the wrong piston.... He dicided to take it back too Pat.. who had the nerves Too convince Ethan that the piston was the right stuff. I know at this point he was starting too think Pat was right and I was wrong. ( but I can't blame him for that, Pat being in business for years. and I was just a young buck telling his 2 year costumer that he don't have a clue.) well I think Pat dose have a Clue he just know he can screw the guys over because there know less than he does. AND THATS WHAT MAKES ME SICK!!
But thats gone and like from the start I am not out to bash anyone. I started this too help Ethan and Like anyone I do things for I like too see them happy. I am very happy Ethan is now enjoying the car. It's making power like it soppose too. And thats all that counts.
Brent
The clerance on the pistons on his old motor was so bad it was as if the floating piston pins, were press fit. The bearing clerance was way off. the piston too wall clerance was off. amoung other things. The funny thing about this, is along the way almost anyone who came across the story had a simmilar story about PAT.. but I still dicided too leave it alone. So did Ethan. Yet I got **** over it. Pat is also very good at BSing his costumers. My favorit was that it made the same Power........ <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> Well I know Ethan will get tired of holding that back soon enough too. I think he's planing on racing in an up coming F-body event. then we will see. <img src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" border="0" alt="[devil]" />
I can't quite figuer out how guys like this stay in Business. feeding BS too people. I not only build Motors, I race. I am out there playing with my ride just the same, and this stuff cost $$$. so I don't have any respect for guys that screw you over on purpose. When I told Ethan that the piston was the wrong piston.... He dicided to take it back too Pat.. who had the nerves Too convince Ethan that the piston was the right stuff. I know at this point he was starting too think Pat was right and I was wrong. ( but I can't blame him for that, Pat being in business for years. and I was just a young buck telling his 2 year costumer that he don't have a clue.) well I think Pat dose have a Clue he just know he can screw the guys over because there know less than he does. AND THATS WHAT MAKES ME SICK!!
But thats gone and like from the start I am not out to bash anyone. I started this too help Ethan and Like anyone I do things for I like too see them happy. I am very happy Ethan is now enjoying the car. It's making power like it soppose too. And thats all that counts.
Brent
02-18-2002, 08:34 PM
#7
Re: Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) Damn Ethan, that really sucks. It's amazing what some people will do to screw the people that are keeping them in business. What goes around comes around, and Patterson will get what he deserves in the end.
There's no doubt that the new setup is making some power. I can't wait to see the timeslips! It's nice to have someone around like Brent that is willing to help out and get things "where they need to be". I wonder if Patterson and Hennessey are related. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Trevor D ]</p>
There's no doubt that the new setup is making some power. I can't wait to see the timeslips! It's nice to have someone around like Brent that is willing to help out and get things "where they need to be". I wonder if Patterson and Hennessey are related. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Trevor D ]</p>
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02-18-2002, 08:51 PM
#8
Formerly 4mulaJoe
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Re: Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) Damn Ethan that is screwed up! That had to be a big financial hit. I wouldn't have been as calm as you sound like you were. So, what shop did u right on this shortblock? Some time in the next year or so I'm gonna start building a budget shortblock buildup and want it done right and want to learn a little too.
02-18-2002, 09:11 PM
#9
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Re: Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) Thanks for sharing your horrible experience. It was definitely painful to read, I can't imagine your feelings on the entire ordeal..
02-18-2002, 10:03 PM
#11
FormerVendor
Re: Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) I can vouch for everything you've said Ethan even though I've never met you. I know Brent from the school and was there when your stuff came in. He told me the story about the reverse flow stuff and I just laughed. I assumed it was a misunderstanding but then Brent told me that Patterson really thought the LS1 was reverse-cooled !!! Maybe this was just a bad engine for him but I immediatley noticed the generic symmetrical 23 degree SBC pistons as being bogus but Brent said they were supposed to be LS1 pistons. Of course there are no 23 degree LS1 pistons and the reliefs are farther over on the LS1 as well since the valves are more centered over the bore on the LS1! The bearing had no crush at all and were almost all burned at the time which isn't good either. They were also old style 2.00 inch rods instead of the more common 2.100 size for some reason?
02-18-2002, 10:09 PM
#12
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Re: Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) Man sounds like a bum deal. As soon as water starts going in to the oil you need to tear down the engine and fix it. Water+oil don't mix well.
02-18-2002, 11:21 PM
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Re: Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) Ethan that really sucks. Sue the bastard, that's alot of money to throw away! MTI did business with the moron a very long time ago and realized his incompetency quickly separated ties with him.
02-18-2002, 11:43 PM
#14
Re: Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) For comparison sake, here is what Forged LS1 pistons/valve reliefs should look like. Notice the reliefs are closer to the middle of the bore and are nearly as deep as Ethan's SBC pistons:
http://users.ev1.net/~ynot_dv8/S382c.jpg
Tony
http://users.ev1.net/~ynot_dv8/S382c.jpg
Tony
02-18-2002, 11:55 PM
#15
FormerVendor
Re: Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) Yes you can easily see the difference between Tony's pics of real LS1 type pistons because they have a smaller true exhaust relief as well as the larger intake valve relief.
The "Patterson 23 degree LS1" pistons are really just cheaper generic old school SBC pistons with TWO 23 degree intake valve reliefs so you can put them in any cylinder of an older SBC or LTx engine. These engines have both right and left intake valve pistons so JE just made these SRPs with the intake relief on BOTH sides since the smaller exhaust valve will easily fit in the larger intake valve reliefs. This way they only make one piston and save some money. They just don't work in a 15 degree LS1/6! <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0">
The "Patterson 23 degree LS1" pistons are really just cheaper generic old school SBC pistons with TWO 23 degree intake valve reliefs so you can put them in any cylinder of an older SBC or LTx engine. These engines have both right and left intake valve pistons so JE just made these SRPs with the intake relief on BOTH sides since the smaller exhaust valve will easily fit in the larger intake valve reliefs. This way they only make one piston and save some money. They just don't work in a 15 degree LS1/6! <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0">
02-19-2002, 04:19 AM
#16
Re: Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) I tell ya what, just reading that pisses me off and it's not even my car....
Ethan, I feel for ya bro, but I don't think you should take this lying down. I don't know what kind of guy you are, but I would be all up in somebody's **** if they destroyed a 5000 dollar motor that I paid for out of my hard earned money, and then had the ***** to get an attitude with me about it. And then to stoop so low and start spreading rumors like a child.
To bad I don't live in Houston. I'd be glad to take a ride up and have a few words with good ole "Pat" for ya.
Definately go after these guys legally. You have a very legit case and could possibly get a bit more money out of it than what was spent originally. Good luck
Josh
Ethan, I feel for ya bro, but I don't think you should take this lying down. I don't know what kind of guy you are, but I would be all up in somebody's **** if they destroyed a 5000 dollar motor that I paid for out of my hard earned money, and then had the ***** to get an attitude with me about it. And then to stoop so low and start spreading rumors like a child.
To bad I don't live in Houston. I'd be glad to take a ride up and have a few words with good ole "Pat" for ya.
Definately go after these guys legally. You have a very legit case and could possibly get a bit more money out of it than what was spent originally. Good luck
Josh
02-19-2002, 05:21 AM
#17
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Re: Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) Ethan, first off, I want to say that I am so sorry that this happened to you. You have always been so cool with me and you do not deserve this.
I am glad that you brought your experience with Patterson to a public forum like this. Just like Campbell said, "I just hope with your post you prevent some other fella from getting screwed like you were.", I was going to be one of those fellows to get screwed. I had already discussed having him build me a stroker motor and with the Year End Bonus I am expecting first part of next month, I was planning on dropping some money with Patterson or have a local shop do the work for me.
This story pretty much scared the **** out of me. Anybody that knows me already knows my problems with the car and to have something like that happen, I would definately be pulling out the Sig and doing some damage.
Ethan, if you don't mind can you send me an e-mail with some info on the guys that fixed your engine and if it is a shop or something thanks man...
[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: LJ_Z28 ]</p>
I am glad that you brought your experience with Patterson to a public forum like this. Just like Campbell said, "I just hope with your post you prevent some other fella from getting screwed like you were.", I was going to be one of those fellows to get screwed. I had already discussed having him build me a stroker motor and with the Year End Bonus I am expecting first part of next month, I was planning on dropping some money with Patterson or have a local shop do the work for me.
This story pretty much scared the **** out of me. Anybody that knows me already knows my problems with the car and to have something like that happen, I would definately be pulling out the Sig and doing some damage.
Ethan, if you don't mind can you send me an e-mail with some info on the guys that fixed your engine and if it is a shop or something thanks man...
[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: LJ_Z28 ]</p>
02-19-2002, 07:15 AM
#18
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Re: Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) See Ethan? you might have just cost that CROOK Patterson some money... and saved a poor fella, Carlos ,from getting the Pattershaft.
Spread the word. Hurt that crook were it hurts the most. In his freaking wallet.
Dang that whole deal just stinks.
Raughammer
Spread the word. Hurt that crook were it hurts the most. In his freaking wallet.
Dang that whole deal just stinks.
Raughammer
02-19-2002, 08:12 AM
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Re: Does Patterson Automotive know LS1's? (long) Damn E that truly sucks. I couldnt see spending another 3 grand to fix a $7000 motor. God knows how many other people he has screwed over in the past like that. Im glad you posted this because Carlos was ready to send him his stuff and almost had me wanting to send him my stuff. Then once I found out he built your motor I really wanted to do it because I know how bad *** your car is. And I know damn well my poor *** couldnt fix it if I just spent that much money on the motor. I hope you can get everything straight with him.
Albert
Albert