Here is the new items for sale thread that I just put together. There is a ton of stuff in there.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/lsx-parts...uspension.html

I also started emptying out my garage last night. I had to take 6 trips down the street to the dumpster. I have to work tonight, but tomorrow will be day one of actually smashing the wall. I also have to call UHaul about renting a trailer for the day. I can't forget to do that.

I understand what both of you are saying. This is the final build decision. I refuse to change my mind once more. I have been swayed before and this is it. This sets the foundation perfectly for what I want to do in the future. Once this is done it is just a point of the transmission being built, clutch swap, and engine. The rolling chassis will be completely setup fuel, supporting mod, and drivetrain wise.

I agree that I have changed my mind a lot and part of that has been from outside sources telling me I need to hurry up and get it running. This is it though. If I simply wanted another car to drive I would have sold this for $2500 taken that and the massive amount of money (Probably in the 5 digit range) I've spent on parts and bought another lot nicer car. I don't want to spend a massive amount of time, effort, and money just to end up with a stock car with some bolt ons. That doesn't make any sense to me. I have another car to daily drive and it does just fine for me.

I've been planning a build for this car before I even bought it. I was on my way to accomplishing that until I had a bunch of bad luck and made some not so great decisions. It will be pretty much exactly what I want when I am done and that is what matters to me. It will be very unique and I am sure a lot of people will like what I have planned once they get to see it.

 

Fair enough - if you've got another car, that's fine - just don't keep doing it forever

 

Well I just read all of the thread. I totally feel for you man...I'm on my 3rd camaro now and doing much better lol...first one was the trans...second a rod bolt let go lol...third is procharged and was doing well untill the other day when it lost oil pressure lol. I shut her down instantly and thank god theres no knock...the relief valve must be stuck. That'll be my project for saturday. So what are you sitting on now with parts and expected plans?

 

The fact that it blew up was completely random. I never knew something like that could happen before it happened to me. I remember Tainted's car blew up when he went to start it too, but never really knew what it was from. Beyond that it not running for this long is close to mostly my fault. I've been swayed and changed my mind way too many times which has been delaying getting this running for way too long.

My current plan is roughly listed in this post.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/12350092-post179.html

I've been keeping up with that Word document on my other computer. I am getting really close to being able to order all of the MWCP, Bogarts, and tires. That should be towards the end of next month.

Good luck with the oil pressure issue. I hate trying to diagnose problems although I've gotten pretty decent at it with constantly dealing with my 95.

My most recent update is only slightly car related in the fact that my cars will be going in my garage as soon as I can get the tow guy to bring them back to me. On Monday I finally knocked that damn wall out of my garage.

Here's what I started with:


I shocked the **** out of myself just simply grabbing it. That prompted me to very quickly shut off all of the electricity:


Garbage pile:


No more carpet:


Pretty much finished. I just have to finish hanging / moving the electrical outlet:


I broke all of these by standing on them. I'm 155 lbs and it took some effort:


Smashing the wall only took around 2 hours. Cleaning it up took forever. I managed to get rid of all of the dry wall and carpet the same night. I took 7 trips down to the dumpster on my skateboard. I filled up that trash can and then put it on my skateboard. I'd then ride it down the street and dump all of the crap in the dumpster. All I have left to do is vaccuum the last of the dust and throw away all of the broken studs.

Now, it is like a completely different garage. I have so much more extra space and it is so much brighter in there. I also found a, "helper" who said she would paint my garage for me as long as I helped... The funny part is I did all of this without informing my land lord. Oh well... I am looking at it as I just improved the property value by making the garage hold two cars instead of barely being able to contain one.

 

i did a search cuz i'm beginning to plan out a 383 build once i get a transmission and rearend. won't happen for a year or so but i thought i'd start planning anyway. but i stumbled across your build thread and remembered reading it a long time ago. the last thing i read was when you got the first nitrous bottle and were trying to get people to guess what you were building. seems a lot has happened to you since then but i hope you get this thing running soon if you haven't already. good luck man

 

Yes, a whole lot has happened since then. I have a lot of updating to do, but my home internet has been down so I can't upload any of the pictures. My garage is finally done and my cars are home. I had a guy tow both of them home at the same time on Thursday. Thankfully, they both actually fit in my garage.

I have started cleaning them out from sitting for so long. Much like everyone has been saying they are a mess. So far I've noticed my dash pad has broken and my hatch struts have gone bad. I have an extra set of hatch struts to replace them with, but I am going to have to find a dash pad. I may swap the whole dash shell out because my dash had a crack in it above the steering wheel, but we'll see. I don't want to get too far into taking it apart just yet. I want to get it running and then slowly get everything else smoothed out.

It is going to be a lot of work to get it back to the state it used to be in. I've conservatively estimated having all of the funding I need by April. If I can sell a few extra things before then it will expedite the process. I just need to get it cleaned out and ready for being worked on. The one unfortunate part is my friend who I was hoping to help me out just shipped off to boot camp today and won't be back until April 16th. I guess the timing will work out to when I have enough money to do everything, but it is still bad timing.

 

Not car related but... Holy ****, you did all that without telling your landlord? Has he seen it yet? What did he say? Looks good though. That's what I would have done.

 

subscribing to thread... I wanna hear a startup!

 

sux man! wish u best. hope forum members will help

 

that's where he smokes weeeed!

 

I have been trying to type this out for the past few days, but have never been able to finish. It's been pretty frustrating. I have some pictures, but my home internet is still down so I can't upload them from my computer.

The newest update is that I traded my AFR 225s for a 14k mile 2008 L92 short block. My heads are on their way to their new owner and I should have the bottom end probably by the middle of next week. Having that in my hands will definetly expedite the process of getting my car running.

I need to go through my build list Word document and update everything. I am pretty sure that I still won't have the money to do everything by the end of April, but overall the build will be a little cheaper piece the engine together vesus buying a complete drop out. That's the best part because then I can start rolling on getting my 93 back together.

The only down side is that I am not too sure how I want to put this together, if that can be a down side. I have a general idea and I know I am simply looking to do a stock bottom end, heads, cam setup. I need to do some research on different things people have put together, find what I like, and what fits into my budget.

I'm not really a fan of L92 heads and really like cathedral port stuff so I am leaning more towards that. I just haven't seen anyone run cathedral port heads on a stock bottom end L92. If anyone has links to cathedral port heads on an L92 post them so I can do some reading.

Indeed, I did. My landlord hasn't been to visit us in a good 21 months. He has been kind of unresponsive to fixing all of the things that are with our apartment so we have taken things into our own hands. I've fixed a ton of things in our apartment so far and am going to be refixing our sink and front door lock tomorrow.

We have a ton of things that don't work properly or at all; AC (won't turn on by itself / stay on or blow cold air), heat (turns on but blows cold air) , oven (4 hour baked potato), stove (not at all), garbage disposal (not at all), our deck is falling apart, has boards loose along the whole thing, missing 3 of the 8 gussets that hold it up, etc...

Hhmm... Maybe this is why it won't get over 58* in our apartment...

Our maintenance guy came by a month or so after we moved in almost two years ago to fix some things. We told him that the stove wasn't working. He said, "I'll be back tomorrow to check it out for you." Well... we haven't seen him since. It's kind of become a running joke between my roomate and I.

Our landlord used to live where we currently live and he had an office in the garage. He added the wall and the carpeted area. It wasn't originally designed to be in there.

Oh, trust me there will be video of the startup. I can use my phone, but I am going to try and find a good video camera by then. I should have around 3-4 months to do it so I'm not too worried.

Well, a couple of my friends are forum members and will be helping me out. It will be interesting to put it together in my garage as it is now really cramped. I didn't really have time to move everything around or clean all of the dry wall dust out before the tow driver showed up with both of my cars.

 

My new engine is here. It arrived a couple days ago, but I wasn't able to pick it up until yesterday evening. I got it unloaded by myself (amazingly enough), but only had about 5 minutes before I had to get ready for work so I didn't get to check it out too thoroughly.

My home internet is now gone so I am going to try and update everything from my friend's house tomorrow. I have a lot of pictures and questions.

 

Update time. I brought my stuff to work so I could get everything done. I really need some help with the bold, italic, and underlined issues. Any help would be greatly appreciated:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The cars are finally home:



I got them only one day too late. Some ******* decided to throw a brick through the windshield of my 93 the day before I had them towed home.

As sure as everyone has been telling my cars are a giant mess. I am missing a ton of parts from my 93, the Formula is disgustingly dirty, and missing a few more things than I though it was. The most obvious things I noticed at first (other than the leaves everywhere) were that my dash pad broke and my hatch struts gave out. I am going to wait on the dash pad as I may switch the whole dash at some point down the road after I get it running.

The first thing I did was take my shop vac to the car and start sucking all of the leaves out of it. Here's what I started with:


Here is roughly where I am at now:




I still need to pop the cowling off and suck all of the leaves out from around the wipers. I am going to try and do that tomorrow.

After I cleaned the leaves out I decided to go ahead and replace the hatch struts as I already had a spare set. I then noticed that when I was replacing the hatch struts the left ball piece on the hatch that the struts connect to was broken. I guess the material that anchors the ball had broken. It isn't that big of a deal it just makes opening the hatch kind of jerky. If I have some extra time I may get into it and fix it.

I had to pull the sail panels to replace the hatch struts and noticed that one of the previous owners had installed a set of Pioneer speakers. That was a nice bonus when I was noticing thing after thing that was broken or falling apart. I also pulled out a couple of pieces of sound deadening material from under the sail panels when I had them out. I left the styrofoam pieces that help support the sail panels for now. I also cut out my sun visors. I hate those things. I have to sit pretty close to the dash to push the clutch pedal in all the way because I'm not the tallest person and those things would always fall down and hit me. I decided to just cut them out and throw them away. I had already done it in my 95 and it is nice. I am losing weight out of the car, ridding myself of an annoyance, and cleaning up the interior:


While I was pulling parts of the interior out to replace the hatch struts I noticed some other things were missing. I need some help with these. The first thing I noticed is that my BCM is gone:



That one got me pretty pissed off because I have a 98 6 speed car. Finding a BCM is going to be a bitch. I also don't know if they are different between setups in regards to VATS, sound system, interior options, etc... Am I going to have to find one that came out of a car with the exact same options as mine or are they programable?

I then noticed that some sort of switch was sitting on the carpet:


I figured out that it connects to the clutch pedal and has a spot it is held in:


The other thing I noticed that was my master cylinder was about to pop off of my clutch pedal. You can kind of see wher I am talking about in the picture above, but this one is better. This is after I popped it back on. Is there something like a C clip or something else that holds this on or does it just snap in place?


The last thing I could find odd was this plug was missing. I really have no clue what this is. I know the plug next to it is for the cig lighter:

What does this connect to? The only thing I could think of is either the reverse lockout or CAGS, but I really have no clue.

 

The next big update was that my engine arrived. It got here a couple days before I was able to pick it up, but it is now at my house, and sitting in my garage.

OOoohhh...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The funny part about this is that I actually picked this up in my mom's car. If any of you remember the original time a couple years ago when my roomate and I went to pick up the 408 setup this is a throw back to the original. This time though there wasn't nearly as much **** jammed in the back of the car. I did have to move a bunch of stuff, but it wasn't an issue.

I had to drive to the Fedex freight place across town to pick it up which is unfortunately about a 30 minute drive one way. When I got there it was a little weird because you had to sign in before parking, fill out paperwork, get a visitors badge, and then go talk to someone inside behind a giant piece of bullet proof glass. The process went pretty smoothly though. A guy on a fork lift picked up the pallet and loaded righ into the back of the car in about 20 seconds. It would have taken me about half an hour to do that, I told him that, and he laughed.

Here it is once I got home:


I then had to unload the damn thing by myself which was not particuarly a fun event. I managed to slide it out of the back of the car about a little under half way before it started teetering. I then put a giant plastic cooler behind the rear bumper. It was about 6-8 inches lower than the rear bumper and slid the pallet out on top of that. Once I got it balanced on the cooler I got my old skate board and put that in front of the cooler. I then slid the pallet off of the cooler and onto the skateboard. From there it was just a simple ride across the street.

My neighbors were looking at me like I was insane rolling an engine strapped to a pallet on a skateboard, but it worked. I rolled it around my driveway side because it wouldn't fit through the garage door side with my cars there.


The next large issue was that I couldn't fit the engine through the door with it attached to the pallet. Because of that I had to cut the engine off of the pallet, pull the engine back towards me with one hand, push the pallet out of the way with the other, and replace the pallet with two wooden stakes. It was a major pain in the *** and my back was starting to give me issues at this point in time. Here's the balancing act:


After I had it balanced I picked up the pallet and walked it around in a giant circle through the garage door side to put it where I wanted it. From there I had to swing the engine in 360s and / or drag it to get it back to where I wanted it. I managed to get it all the way to the pallet, but I was running out of time and strength at this time. Once, I got it to the pallet I didn't have enough strength to pick it up and set it on the pallet. I had my brother help me on Sunday afternoon pick it up and set it on the pallet. Here is where it is currently residing:


I didn't get to check it out too much until Sunday afternoon as I was running out of time on Friday when I unloaded it. From what I can tell it looks really good. I only have one potential issue that I am unsure of and I need some help. One of the head bolts seems to have way more play in it that others. With the other 3 I can only move the bolt when it is completely bottomed out maybe / really roughly a tenth of an inch or so side to side. With this one specific bolt I can move it a lot more than the other ones. It is the absolute back hole on the passenger side of the engine. I tried switching one of the other bolts in the hole and it does the same thing. I thought it could be the bolt and I tried it in the other holes and it had much less play in it. Thoughts?

Beyond that which I am not really sure if it is an issue or not everything looks good. The engine came out of an 08 GMC with around 14K miles on it. Here's the deck surface:

(The bottom left bolt is the one I am talking about in the above paragraph)

Close up of one piston:


The next part that I need to figure out is what I have and what I will need to install it in my car. I've been reading the sticky ( https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...02-f-body.html ) in the GEN IV internal section, but I need some help. I'd like to avoid wasting money on buying parts I already have so I need some help identifying them. I know the knock sesnors have been moved out of the valley cover and are now in the side of the block:


Are the sensors that are shown here what I need? From what I read in the sticky you have to use the LS1 sensors, but tap the block for them.

This is the valley cover that I have:

I believe this is the correct one that I need for the swap. ??? Correct ???

This the front cover on the engine (sorry for the crappy picture of a picture):

That I have no clue on which one I need. I know I also have another front cover off of an LS7 that I could possibly use. I bought it a long time ago with the LS7 crank, front cover, oil pan, and oil pump. I need to find it, but I know it is sitting in my garage some where. Here's what that one looks like:


I have a stock Fbody oil pan, windage tray, and pickup tube to use. The other issue is that I have a JP double roller timing chain that I bought Black Friday of 07 and I am not sure if it will work with the different front covers.

I really need to work on figuring out what I need without wasting a lot of money buying redundant parts.

 

For the past two and a half weeks or so since I've had my cars back every time I've had free time and decided to wash my Formula it has rained. It's been a little frustrating, but today was finally different and I managed to get my car out of the garage and wash most of it. This is the first time I've washed it since 07-29-2008 so it was pretty gnarly.

My garage has a light slope towards the garage door so getting the car out was not an issue at all. I just gave it a push and it started rolling. I only have one hose and it is on the opposite side of the garage door. I had to run it behind the AC unit, under the steps, and through the garage to get it close to the car. The reason I say, "close" is that it was still about 3 feet too short. This resulted in me only being able to get the back half of the car wet. Then, I had to try and shoot water towards the front of the car to get it rinsed off. It didn't work too well, but I managed to get from the fender vents in front of the doors to the back of the car and the roof clean. I was then going to push the car back into the garage a little so I could get the rest washed, but when I started to push I couldn't get it to move. I recruited my younger brother to help me and we still couldn't get it to move. By this point in time it was pretty much completely dark outside. I figured I would just get it back into the garage and finish washing it tomorrow (Tuesday).

Without a way to get it back in I had to get a little creative and got my dad's old anchor rope. I tied it to the rear of my Formula, ran it through the garage, and then tied it to the radiator support of my 95 that was sitting in the driveway. I wasn't too sure if it was going to work, but sure enough it did. I would move my 95 about 3 feet in reverse and then get out to check to see how my Formula was doing. I was quite astonded, but it ended up working just fine and I pulled it right back into the garage. Here's a couple pictures for humor purposes:

I'm standing right around the middle of the rope. Formula side:


95 Side:


Up to this point I've managed to do achieve everything I've tried to do so far. I managed to get the engine out of the car, in my garage, and wash most of my car by myself including pushing it in, and out of the gararge. The issue is that it is taking me way too long to do. Moving the engine a grand total of probably 100 feet took me nearly 2 hours and washing part of my car took around 3 counting trying to get it back in the garage. I am going to need some serious help when it comes time to do something like install the engine, rear suspension, or mini tub the car. Volunteers?

 

New item for sale thread:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/parts-cla...nsion-bmr.html

Support the build and buy some good parts at great prices.

 

for what its worth.. i kinda decided how your motor hydrolocked if you never got a definitive answer on how it happened. Ive followed the thread but not in depth so idk if anyone mentioned this as a common thing already.

I was washing my car the other day and after i got done drying it off i popped the hood to just wipe down the engine bay. Well as i was cleaning i noticed some water on my intake manifold.. figured it just dripped on it when i opened the hood but then then i actually went to wipe down the intake and you know what i saw?? A POOL OF WATER around the #7 injector. Im talking like that whole area around that injector was just a pool of water. The number 7 cylinder is directly underneath the cowl and the intake runners are perfect to channel any water that way. I flipped ****. i dried it up and with a rag and then took a heat gun on very very low to dry up any more water resting inbetween the injector and o-ring.

Now im sure other people have discovered this but i never read about it. i just got to thinking about the the few unlucky ls1's i hear of throwing rods on startup. Many blame it on a leaky injector most of the time and coincidentally on the #7 one too, which seems to be the area where yours threw a rod. I am convinced that the actual injectors in these was never leaky(in terms of fuel) but that the o-ring around the injector was worn down by water resting in that area, but then drying up once the motor warmed up and people never noticed it.. so over time that o-ring just wouldnt seal as well till eventually water started leaking through it. it all makes sense in your case because you said it was like a monsoon outside right before the motor went.

 

^ I kind of touched on it here:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/9714232-post109.html

I think it was honestly either water eventually eroding the injector O ring or the torn PCV hose. It could have been a combination of the two working together. The thing was that it went through a tropical storm and it rained for 2-3 days straight quite heavily. It's going to be garaged forever from now on, but I do feel for people who hydrolock their engines.

 

Major update time....

I've been paroozing the parts for sale section a lot recently and have scored some mega buys / trades for really good parts that I am excited about. I have my final set of heads. These are it and there will be no changing them with this engine. They started life as a 205cc Dart head that have been ported to 221.9 cc intake runners, had a 4 angle 2.055 intake valve job, 3 angle 1.600 exhaust, opened the chambers up, and final milled to 62.8ccs. Here are the flow numbers on a 4.00 inch bore.

LIFT....INTAKE...EXHAUST
.200.....144.2......123.0....
.300.....210.5......178.3....
.400.....258.2......216.4....
.500.....298.3......230.3....
.550.....313.7......240.7....
.600.....320.0......244.4....
.650.....325.7......242.5....

Onto the pictures

Heads themselves:


Chambers:


Manley .650 lift springs and titanium retainers that will be for sale soon:


Intake Runner (Same port with increasing flash):






Exhaust Runner:




I also picked up a BNIB set of ARP head studs for newer style blocks for less than I would have bought them new:



I have paid for and am currently waiting on a couple other parts to get here too from members. I'll post pictures of these parts when they get here.
- Kooks 2 inch race headers
- Fast 90mm Intake / PTM 90 TB (TB will be for sale as soon as it arrives)
- A new Laptop at an amazing price. ******* FINALLY! This piece of **** that I've currently been working on drives me absolutely insane. I cannot describe how frustrating it is to type something like this giant response out, host pictures, and then have it all freeze or crash.

I also ordered a BLS HID setup from Brian at BLS. I ordered the 500k lows and white highs. I'm just waiting on them to get here, but am not in a huge hurry. I also scored a set of OEM C6 HID projectors, ballasts, and bulbs, that I plan on frankensteining into replacing my fog lights. We'll see how that goes.

On top of those parts I ordered a small fortune in parts today from three sponsors that were all a great help to deal with. The order these are in are the order that I called everyone.

Speed Inc. - I didn't catch his name, but I want to thank the guy that I talked to over the phone. Over the process of a 45+ minute call, he helped me put in a 25+ item order, found part numbers from their catalog, found me items that weren't in their catalog, and did his best to answer all of my questions.

Parts Ordered:
- ARP Rod Bolts, Header Studs, OEM Sized Wheel Studs, Crank bolt -
- Mr. Gasket chrome dipstick -
- GM 3.73 gear set with master install kit -
- TA rearend girdle -
- Rear end gear Oil for 98 -
- Raptor shift light (Blue) -
- Poly motor mounts, trans mount, torque arm, stock SS sway bar bushings with end links
- Melling performance oil pump -
- Valve spring micrometer -
- 5/16ths pushrod measuring tool -
- PTV checking springs -
- Heavy duty engine stand –
- LS7 Lifters -
- Lingenfelter 58x to 24x conversion box -
- Sealed battery box and relocation kit –
- LS2 Chain -

Lingenfelter Performance Engineering (LPE) - I still needed some help about the conversion box and some specific information. I called and talked to a woman who said I needed to talk to Ryan, but he was in a sales meeting. I left a message and he actually called me back. Not only did he call me back, but within 20 minutes. I have to say that is great service and I appreciate the help. mega

Vengeance Racing - They are running a parts clearance sale in the southern classifieds section. Thread here: https://ls1tech.com/forums/southern-...-new-used.html
I noticed a few parts that I could really use and gave them a ring. Mike was a great help, found the parts for me, and shipped them for free. I also want to thank Mike and Ron for being helpful with my bank shutting down my debit card and being quick on the phone tag situation. My bank thought my massive spending spree was fraudulent charges and stopped my spending for the day. I called my debit card company and my bank in hopes of them resolving this today, but et... Tomorrow should be the day.

Parts Ordered:
- RevXtreme 100mm TB
- LS1 Fuel Rail
- NOS 5177 front half with purge

Scoggin Dickey Parts Center / SDPC = At this point in the day I had been on the phone with different people for the greater part of 4 and a half hours. My mind was kind of scattered from trying to keep up with my giant list of what I have, need, and need to order. John at SDPC was a great help. SDPC is currently running free shipping on clutch kits until the end of May and have great deals on a bunch of other related parts right now: https://ls1tech.com/forums/sponsor-s...formation.html and https://ls1tech.com/forums/sponsor-s...ches-sdpc.html

Originally, I was going to go with one of their LS7 clutch kits with the aluminum flywheel. Well, my plans have kind of snowballed from there and with the help of John figured the 150 shot would kill it pretty quickly. For $90 more I decided to go with the Mcleod RST twin disk. The RST version is an organic lined clutch supposed to have a very nice smooth engagement. I very much wanted to and still may order an aluminum flywheel to save the extra 15-17 lbs, but decided to pass for right now due to budget constraints. My oem LS1 flywheel after being resurfaced will bolt right up and shouldn't give me any issues, but I am thinking I will be ordering it towards the end of this month if I can sell a couple extra parts.

John was also nice enough to track down some random parts that my car was missing such as the 4 bolts that hold the shifter to the transmission, clutch pedal / master cylinder clip, and the 4x cam sprocket I now needed since my JP timing set won't work. I also want to add John onto the list of people to thank for dealing with the debit card / bank issue.

Parts Ordered:
- McLeod RST street twin
- New 01+ slave cylinder
- Tick adjustable master cylinder
- Tick one man bleeder
- 4x Shifter bolts
- Master cylinder fastener clip
- New flywheel bolts
- 4x Cam sprocket

All in all I am pretty excited and at the same time terrified. I spent a little over $4700 today in parts today and I still have a lot of things that I need to order. My largest fear is ordering all of this stuff, spending a small fortune, working on this for months, and then having something not be right, or go wrong. It is very nerve wracking to say the least. On a few of the others parts from my list can wait like the wheels, tires, wiring components, and some other random things. Right now I am just going to keep researching the rest of the little things that I need and wait for parts to come in. Once stuff starts coming in the engine will be assembled, the interior taken apart to swap the wiring, dash, dash pad, center console, A pillars, and wire in some extra things. The rest will just be dropping the rear end, gears, fuel pumps, installing the engine, clutch, and putting the rear back in. Followed by the new wheels, tires, and the final tune. I made a big step today, but there's still a huge list of things that needs to be done.

 

The Darts look nice man... should make some good power..... not backing up between .600 and .650 either...