holy valvetrain noise batman..
09-11-2007, 09:36 PM
#1
holy valvetrain noise batman.. just installed tfs heads w/ hs rr's and 7.450 pushrods. caddy lifters preload at .090. and damn this bitch is loud as hell once rpms get over 2k. i can hear it before that but def hear it above that. anyone got any ideas? i expected some noise but damn. btw the hs rockers did have instructions in the package and i looked thru my ls1/ ls6 book and said they torqued the rockers at 38 ft lbs so thats what i did. since then i have seen most are using 22 ft lbs. this couldnt cause that could it?
09-11-2007, 09:39 PM
#2
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back the rockers out to 22 ft/lbs. 38 is too much preload. Probably where your noise is coming from.
Are you sure your pushrods are the right size? The ones that came with my TFS heads were 7.500".
Are you sure your pushrods are the right size? The ones that came with my TFS heads were 7.500".
09-11-2007, 10:22 PM
#5
Launching!
"back the rockers out to 22 ft/lbs. 38 is too much preload. Probably where your noise is coming from."
C'mon, 732 posts and this is a plausible answer? Of course not.
The only problem with torquing the rocker bolts to 38 ft-lbs is that it's 16 ft-lbs more than they should be, and he risks stripping the aluminum threads.
Either the lifters aren't pumped up yet (they bleed down during the install, and sometimes take *forever* to get oil back in them), the PR's are the wrong length or you have aggressive cam lobe profiles.
C'mon, 732 posts and this is a plausible answer? Of course not.
The only problem with torquing the rocker bolts to 38 ft-lbs is that it's 16 ft-lbs more than they should be, and he risks stripping the aluminum threads.
Either the lifters aren't pumped up yet (they bleed down during the install, and sometimes take *forever* to get oil back in them), the PR's are the wrong length or you have aggressive cam lobe profiles.
09-11-2007, 10:40 PM
#6
im going to say its not so much the cam. it wasnt nearly as loud prior to the head install. i used a pr checker when i got my pr's. the heads are milled to 60 cc so the 7.5 were too long. the car sat for about 2 weeks with the lifters in the motor before i fired it up so maybe they need a little time. i put 25 miles on it in the last 2 days and its still damn loud imo. ill give it a little more time to see if it gets any quieter.
09-12-2007, 01:01 AM
#7
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Originally Posted by Dan_the_C5_Man
"back the rockers out to 22 ft/lbs. 38 is too much preload. Probably where your noise is coming from."
Ya, I wasn't really seeing how that would matter in this case either
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09-12-2007, 01:04 AM
#8
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Did you install a ported oil pump?? if so.....
Ahem... -=Modified=- and I spend about a month trying to find out why his car sounded like a sewing machine on CRACK after the MS4 cam and PRC stage 1 head install.. We also did the ported oil pump.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...0&page=1&pp=20
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=513228
I don't think it's revised. We were advised such in a post on LS1TEch.
Thicker oil pump o-ring GM# 12557752
POST: https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....8&postcount=59
THREAD: https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...0&page=1&pp=20
We really aren't sure what exactly solved it. We installed the LS7 lifters and the O ring at the same time. :shrug:
THe oil pressure consistency is 1000x better now! I think it's due to using a stock O ring in a ported pump.
We also tried to prime the oil system on the first install (month ago), it did not want to prime. AFTER the O ring install, the oil system primed INSTANTLY to 60lbs. We just disconnected the ignition relay under the hood and cranked it over three times for about 10 seconds each time. -Instant oil pressure each time.
Ahem... -=Modified=- and I spend about a month trying to find out why his car sounded like a sewing machine on CRACK after the MS4 cam and PRC stage 1 head install.. We also did the ported oil pump.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...0&page=1&pp=20
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=513228
Originally Posted by Bayer-Z28
Originally Posted by cals400ex
did they revise that oil pump o-ring? i have been recommended to replace that o-ring in a friends car since the pressure is a bit low.
Thicker oil pump o-ring GM# 12557752
Originally Posted by georgiarocker
Check this out.
During my maggie/cam install, I developed a persistent TICK coming from the vicinity of #7 (rear drivers side) of my LS1. My installer tore my engine apart 2 or 3 times trying to diagnose and pinpoint the problem. After many, many hours and the process of eliminating (& REPLACING) all the "obvious" things... nothing worked.
We were able to calm the tick down a bit but it never went away completely. The tick would develop after putting the car under load on the street for a couple miles, but when you'd stop and let it idle for about 60 seconds, the tick would go away.
Just like you guys, the tick was very loud, sounded like a bad lifter, and was easily discernable from the common "sewing machine" sound... it was very obvious, annoying, and aggravating.
Then... we found this: http://www.pistonslap.com/tsb/020601038.htm
What was happening was: The bad o-ring was allowing air into the oil path and since #7 is the first cylinder to receive oil, it was getting most of the air bubbles and the lifter was not pumping up completely.
I've been hammering on my engine for the last 4 months and NO TICK WHATSOEVER!!!!!!!!!!
Needless to say, my speed shop bought a bunch of O-rings and changes them out every time an LSx engine comes in for performance work!!!
Hope this helps!
During my maggie/cam install, I developed a persistent TICK coming from the vicinity of #7 (rear drivers side) of my LS1. My installer tore my engine apart 2 or 3 times trying to diagnose and pinpoint the problem. After many, many hours and the process of eliminating (& REPLACING) all the "obvious" things... nothing worked.
We were able to calm the tick down a bit but it never went away completely. The tick would develop after putting the car under load on the street for a couple miles, but when you'd stop and let it idle for about 60 seconds, the tick would go away.
Just like you guys, the tick was very loud, sounded like a bad lifter, and was easily discernable from the common "sewing machine" sound... it was very obvious, annoying, and aggravating.
Then... we found this: http://www.pistonslap.com/tsb/020601038.htm
What was happening was: The bad o-ring was allowing air into the oil path and since #7 is the first cylinder to receive oil, it was getting most of the air bubbles and the lifter was not pumping up completely.
I've been hammering on my engine for the last 4 months and NO TICK WHATSOEVER!!!!!!!!!!
Needless to say, my speed shop bought a bunch of O-rings and changes them out every time an LSx engine comes in for performance work!!!
Hope this helps!
THREAD: https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...0&page=1&pp=20
We really aren't sure what exactly solved it. We installed the LS7 lifters and the O ring at the same time. :shrug:
THe oil pressure consistency is 1000x better now! I think it's due to using a stock O ring in a ported pump.
We also tried to prime the oil system on the first install (month ago), it did not want to prime. AFTER the O ring install, the oil system primed INSTANTLY to 60lbs. We just disconnected the ignition relay under the hood and cranked it over three times for about 10 seconds each time. -Instant oil pressure each time.
Last edited by bayer-z28; 09-12-2007 at 01:10 AM.
09-12-2007, 04:47 AM
#9
I believe that the TFS heads, with the 13.5* valve angle, require much longer pushrods (somewhere around 7.700"). For a quick answer, contact Brian Tooley. However, in reality, you should have measured for you pushrod length. This should be standard practice on this forum.
I also agree with Dan_the_C5_Man, over tightening the rockers only puts more load on your aluminum threads, hopefully when you remove them the threads stay in the head. Otherwise, you are looking at heli-coil installation and you will need to pull the intake at a minimum to keep chips out of the motor.
I also agree with Dan_the_C5_Man, over tightening the rockers only puts more load on your aluminum threads, hopefully when you remove them the threads stay in the head. Otherwise, you are looking at heli-coil installation and you will need to pull the intake at a minimum to keep chips out of the motor.
09-12-2007, 07:58 AM
#11
Originally Posted by bayer-z28
Did you install a ported oil pump?? if so.....
Ahem... -=Modified=- and I spend about a month trying to find out why his car sounded like a sewing machine on CRACK after the MS4 cam and PRC stage 1 head install.. We also did the ported oil pump.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...0&page=1&pp=20
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=513228
Ahem... -=Modified=- and I spend about a month trying to find out why his car sounded like a sewing machine on CRACK after the MS4 cam and PRC stage 1 head install.. We also did the ported oil pump.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...0&page=1&pp=20
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=513228
09-12-2007, 11:34 AM
#13
Originally Posted by ls2 bait
ported oil pump was installed over a year ago. it did tick but has gotten much worse with the head install. and i did measure for pushrod length.
09-12-2007, 04:40 PM
#14
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Originally Posted by 98Camarod
I remember this thread. What was your oil pressure before the switch? When Mine starts up it immediately goes to 60, but after about an hour on the dyno she dropped down to 25. I'd hate to have to pull it apart again
At startup ALL THE TIME, cold or hot the oil pressure would be 40, then PLUMMIT to 25, then up to 30, then to 60 then to 40, then PLUMMIT to 25 again...and so on and so fourth..... The Oil pick up tube O ring helped a LOT!!! The oil pressure sits FIRM at 60 now, no matter hot or cold! SO much better!
His car still kind of ticks, but we just chocked it up to the MS4 being so damn big. We also did a set of LS7 lifters.. Talk abotu doing a job twice! We ahd to basically re do the whole thing.. Take the heads BACK OFF, replace the lifters, then it was the PR's... then it was rip the front of the motor appart again to replace the Oil pump O ring...
.. F*K that was a lot of work!! Mostly because we didn't do the MOST research in the first place and didn't spend the $25 fot a push rod length checker...
09-12-2007, 04:53 PM
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god i love the net....lmao......
oh at the tourqe part.....sounds like improper pr length.....lifters shouldve pumped up as soon asd the top end got oil pressure.....
oh at the tourqe part.....sounds like improper pr length.....lifters shouldve pumped up as soon asd the top end got oil pressure.....
09-12-2007, 08:30 PM
#16
Originally Posted by bayer-z28
I have a vid of the erratic oil pressure at idle, but I cant acess Youtube at work. Search on there for MS4 Oil pressure vid title.... or 35057, my account name.
At startup ALL THE TIME, cold or hot the oil pressure would be 40, then PLUMMIT to 25, then up to 30, then to 60 then to 40, then PLUMMIT to 25 again...and so on and so fourth..... The Oil pick up tube O ring helped a LOT!!! The oil pressure sits FIRM at 60 now, no matter hot or cold! SO much better!
At startup ALL THE TIME, cold or hot the oil pressure would be 40, then PLUMMIT to 25, then up to 30, then to 60 then to 40, then PLUMMIT to 25 again...and so on and so fourth..... The Oil pick up tube O ring helped a LOT!!! The oil pressure sits FIRM at 60 now, no matter hot or cold! SO much better!
09-17-2007, 03:01 PM
#18
Alright, now I am pissed. My oil pressure was fluctuating on the dyno and I was worried, but figured I'd replace the oring after it was tuned. Now I can't get my tune, it is a nasty noise. I thought it was the rockers, its only on the one side. I replaced them and still the same ****. Is there a difference in the o-rings from year to year or what? I know it was on right. There was two different ones that came with the pump, I installed the one that was closest to the stocker.
The pressure is fine when you start it up, but once it warms up the pressure drops and the noise gets excessive, and only on the one side.
The pressure is fine when you start it up, but once it warms up the pressure drops and the noise gets excessive, and only on the one side.
