What are the BEST HEADS for a N/A 346?
09-15-2008, 08:26 AM
#62
09-15-2008, 02:15 PM
#63
CARTEK Racing
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Not true, TEA, TFS heads from Vengeance Racing are all one price no bs, stage 1,2,3, 4 crap. and as far as flow the intakes on the Cartek are hogged out far greater than 215 cc head so the result is you loose daily driving low end grunt. you many have top end pull but 99.9% of the time no one drives at wot. my tea tfs heads outflowed and outpulled my lingenfelter ls6 cnc heads at every rpm from 2000 - 6500 no comparision. the dyno does not lie..people do.
I don't give myc ar 500HP to have low end power, I don't car how crazy fast it is on the street, hell I never get traction there. I drive it on the street all the time, I get good gas milage, and I shift under 3000rpm on the street. Obviosly not WOT on the street. I have no problem with lack of power below 3000rpm, like I said, that is all I need on the street.
But at the track, the only time my car is below 4500rpm is in the staging lanes, waiting to run... so my main concern with the heads I pick, is how they perform from 4500 to 7000+ because THAT is when I use them...
That was my point earlier...CARTEK heads are customers heads that CARTEK sends
out to have ported and to have the valves and springs installed. I've been to CARTEK and
when i was there they had boxes stacked on top of their flow bench..lol. I heard, but not
totally sure that Pat Musi does CARTEK's porting. Julio is a great tuner but they don't port
in-house. They dont have the overhead cost of casting heads like TrickFlow, AFR, or
Edelbrock which are cheaper than CARTEK. Personally NO HEAD cost $2700 neither custom castings or otherwhise. Just way too much!!
out to have ported and to have the valves and springs installed. I've been to CARTEK and
when i was there they had boxes stacked on top of their flow bench..lol. I heard, but not
totally sure that Pat Musi does CARTEK's porting. Julio is a great tuner but they don't port
in-house. They dont have the overhead cost of casting heads like TrickFlow, AFR, or
Edelbrock which are cheaper than CARTEK. Personally NO HEAD cost $2700 neither custom castings or otherwhise. Just way too much!!
CARTEK has been porting all their heads in house for as long as I have known then, (6-7 years)
Boxes on the flow bench? Ive never seen that, and I have never seen boxes on the porting bench...
09-16-2008, 03:14 PM
#64
Sorry that no one got back to you, you can email me direct at btooley@totalengineairflow.com or PM also. Thanks!
But thats a good problem to have..lol Thanks for the PM Brian. Take care.
09-16-2008, 03:19 PM
#65
I see your point, but I disaree with it completly.
I don't give myc ar 500HP to have low end power, I don't car how crazy fast it is on the street, hell I never get traction there. I drive it on the street all the time, I get good gas milage, and I shift under 3000rpm on the street. Obviosly not WOT on the street. I have no problem with lack of power below 3000rpm, like I said, that is all I need on the street.
But at the track, the only time my car is below 4500rpm is in the staging lanes, waiting to run... so my main concern with the heads I pick, is how they perform from 4500 to 7000+ because THAT is when I use them...
CARTEK has been porting all their heads in house for as long as I have known then, (6-7 years)
Boxes on the flow bench? Ive never seen that, and I have never seen boxes on the porting bench...
I don't give myc ar 500HP to have low end power, I don't car how crazy fast it is on the street, hell I never get traction there. I drive it on the street all the time, I get good gas milage, and I shift under 3000rpm on the street. Obviosly not WOT on the street. I have no problem with lack of power below 3000rpm, like I said, that is all I need on the street.
But at the track, the only time my car is below 4500rpm is in the staging lanes, waiting to run... so my main concern with the heads I pick, is how they perform from 4500 to 7000+ because THAT is when I use them...
CARTEK has been porting all their heads in house for as long as I have known then, (6-7 years)
Boxes on the flow bench? Ive never seen that, and I have never seen boxes on the porting bench...
were using a few companies to port their heads. But now that CARTEK is
100% family owned they really stepped up their game. Your car is a testiment
to CARTEK's quality.
09-16-2008, 04:28 PM
#67
09-17-2008, 07:49 PM
#68
Staging Lane
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I'll give Cartek some props, they have some good running cars. Some other sponsers on the board sell flow numbers (cough PRC) that don't really run like they should according to the numbers and dyno's posted.
My pick would be TFS 215's on a NA 346.
My pick would be TFS 215's on a NA 346.
09-17-2008, 07:57 PM
#69
Launching!
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When I perform a seach of PRC results, I see results that are where I believe they should be. Time and time again I see results that are above average. There is plenty of customer dyno numbers on this board that backs this up.
09-18-2008, 12:24 PM
#71
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fasttagurl 10.74@125.92; 2000 Trans Am (346); 4L60E; Yank PT4000; AFR 205; Crane 224/232; 3000 lbs; 06/08
JNorris 10.74@125.90; 98 Camaro Z28 (346); 4L60E; TCI-4000; Trick Flow 215; LG 230/230; 3370lbs; 02/07
pirate3 11.16@121.95; 00 Z28 (346); TH350; TCI 4200; self ported heads; 242/248/.610/.615/111; 3350lbs; 4/08
4psi 11.368 @ 120.77; 1999 Z28 Camaro (346); A4; TCI 4400;PRC 5.3 stage 2.5/ms3; 3300lbs; 9/08
HEAVY CAR that make for about .3-.4th over my car.
GTO1_OHIO 11.768@118.12; 2004 GTO (346); A4 Rossler; Vig 3200; AFR 205; FTI 224/228; 3745lbs; 11/2007
Last edited by holley505; 09-18-2008 at 12:35 PM.
09-18-2008, 03:46 PM
#72
Since i'm in nj i've seen some monster CARTEK cars....Their n/a cars are unbelieveable.
And their FI setups are sick!!! I remember a few years ago a guy from CARTEK his
screen name was SCOTT WS6. CARTEK installed a F1 procharger and their custom heads/cam and he ran low 10's and it was a perfect street car....that awesome Cartek
has some good programs.
And their FI setups are sick!!! I remember a few years ago a guy from CARTEK his
screen name was SCOTT WS6. CARTEK installed a F1 procharger and their custom heads/cam and he ran low 10's and it was a perfect street car....that awesome Cartek
has some good programs.
09-21-2008, 09:26 AM
#74
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Only reason I posted all this is b/c I saw the response saying the TFS heads flow bench data was exaggerated (Id like to see proof on that cause thats not a right way to do business) well I just wanted to confirm from real world setups that they are not exaggerated one bit.
Your information (which seems more your opinion honestly) is not accurate. IF we are comparing numbers from a SuperFlow style bench the TFS numbers are in fact very exaggerated on the exhaust side (30 CFM or so), but alot closer on the intake side (within 5-10 CFM) assuming we are comparing numbers on the SAME flow testing equipment. The industry standard is still SuperFlow as far as I'm concerned (and most would agree) and that is NOT what TFS (or TEA) use to flow and advertise their heads on. Hell, Ive personally griped to the guys at TFS about this situation at one of the tradeshows (but ultimately advertised flow numbers help sell heads).
Are they good heads....yes they are....very good heads I might add and anyone with the right combination can make big power with them (same with AFR....same with ETP), but like I said earlier a few posts above, there are some minor differences and advantages one brand may have over the other based on what your trying to accomplish.
Here is an interesting comparison for you....
Recently another forum member (9secondsflat) had a 383 built by the same shop that helped you coincidentally with the TFS 215's and ALL the goodies including an electric water pump, ported FAST 92, etc., etc....basically ALL the options and small details which help to make big power....and it did in fact make big power producing the third highest output I have ever seen posted from a 383 cubic inch LS combination at 532 HP and 470 RWTQ.
Now I believe I personally still hold the number one output related to a pump gas 383 LS knocking down mid/high 540's on my last trip to the chassis dyno (with a solid roller very streetable combination) but this one is the one that I feel makes for a better comparison against the TFS headed combo.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...460&highlight=
With a set of our 205 heads, a smaller cam, a mechanical water pump, and a very safe tune, this car punched 535 RWHP and 508 RWTQ....easily the highest torque output ever recorded from a 383 to my knowledge and all of this was conducted on the west coast with two points less octane than you are privileged to use back east. If I could have cranked some more compression in this combo I would have done so in a NY minute but knowing we have our limitations here I choose to keep the final CR in the low 11's. More compression would have fattened the torque output even higher as well as added to the final power output as well.
I understand you being proud of the product you are using and I have no problem telling you you that you made a good choice, but the reality is choosing between ANY of the top three is splitting hairs when it comes to outright performance. At this level some of the finer details of the purchase start coming into play such as customer service and other attributes (ease of installation, your value of a CARB legal head, stock of aftermarket valvetrain geometry, port volume effecting low speed part throttle and WOT performance, etc.). Look around at the cross section of dyno numbers and performance results and tell me there is a clear winner....I say there are a number of clear winners and who's flag you (or a particular shop) chooses to wave is more of a personal decision and (regarding shops), sometimes those decisions are made out of economics and not so much a clear superiority between brand names. If you don't think that's the case then you haven't spent much time in the inner circles of performance related business. The almighty dollar still carries big weight....
The good news is now you folks do have some choices and choices always force companies to sharpen their pencils and strive to make a better product....and hopefully offer better customer support of that product as well.
(Tony Mamo)
Your information (which seems more your opinion honestly) is not accurate. IF we are comparing numbers from a SuperFlow style bench the TFS numbers are in fact very exaggerated on the exhaust side (30 CFM or so), but alot closer on the intake side (within 5-10 CFM) assuming we are comparing numbers on the SAME flow testing equipment. The industry standard is still SuperFlow as far as I'm concerned (and most would agree) and that is NOT what TFS (or TEA) use to flow and advertise their heads on. Hell, Ive personally griped to the guys at TFS about this situation at one of the tradeshows (but ultimately advertised flow numbers help sell heads).
Are they good heads....yes they are....very good heads I might add and anyone with the right combination can make big power with them (same with AFR....same with ETP), but like I said earlier a few posts above, there are some minor differences and advantages one brand may have over the other based on what your trying to accomplish.
Here is an interesting comparison for you....
Recently another forum member (9secondsflat) had a 383 built by the same shop that helped you coincidentally with the TFS 215's and ALL the goodies including an electric water pump, ported FAST 92, etc., etc....basically ALL the options and small details which help to make big power....and it did in fact make big power producing the third highest output I have ever seen posted from a 383 cubic inch LS combination at 532 HP and 470 RWTQ.
Now I believe I personally still hold the number one output related to a pump gas 383 LS knocking down mid/high 540's on my last trip to the chassis dyno (with a solid roller very streetable combination) but this one is the one that I feel makes for a better comparison against the TFS headed combo.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...460&highlight=
With a set of our 205 heads, a smaller cam, a mechanical water pump, and a very safe tune, this car punched 535 RWHP and 508 RWTQ....easily the highest torque output ever recorded from a 383 to my knowledge and all of this was conducted on the west coast with two points less octane than you are privileged to use back east. If I could have cranked some more compression in this combo I would have done so in a NY minute but knowing we have our limitations here I choose to keep the final CR in the low 11's. More compression would have fattened the torque output even higher as well as added to the final power output as well.
I understand you being proud of the product you are using and I have no problem telling you you that you made a good choice, but the reality is choosing between ANY of the top three is splitting hairs when it comes to outright performance. At this level some of the finer details of the purchase start coming into play such as customer service and other attributes (ease of installation, your value of a CARB legal head, stock of aftermarket valvetrain geometry, port volume effecting low speed part throttle and WOT performance, etc.). Look around at the cross section of dyno numbers and performance results and tell me there is a clear winner....I say there are a number of clear winners and who's flag you (or a particular shop) chooses to wave is more of a personal decision and (regarding shops), sometimes those decisions are made out of economics and not so much a clear superiority between brand names. If you don't think that's the case then you haven't spent much time in the inner circles of performance related business. The almighty dollar still carries big weight....
The good news is now you folks do have some choices and choices always force companies to sharpen their pencils and strive to make a better product....and hopefully offer better customer support of that product as well.
(Tony Mamo)
Last edited by holley505; 09-22-2008 at 08:29 AM.
09-21-2008, 09:54 AM
#75
Dont care about DYNO numbers... Track Times are my concern. I am 3150 lbs
fasttagurl 10.74@125.92; 2000 Trans Am (346); 4L60E; Yank PT4000; AFR 205; Crane 224/232; 3000 lbs; 06/08
JNorris 10.74@125.90; 98 Camaro Z28 (346); 4L60E; TCI-4000; Trick Flow 215; LG 230/230; 3370lbs; 02/07
pirate3 11.16@121.95; 00 Z28 (346); TH350; TCI 4200; self ported heads; 242/248/.610/.615/111; 3350lbs; 4/08
4psi 11.368 @ 120.77; 1999 Z28 Camaro (346); A4; TCI 4400;PRC 5.3 stage 2.5/ms3; 3300lbs; 9/08
HEAVY CAR that make for about .3-.4th over my car.
GTO1_OHIO 11.768@118.12; 2004 GTO (346); A4 Rossler; Vig 3200; AFR 205; FTI 224/228; 3745lbs; 11/2007
fasttagurl 10.74@125.92; 2000 Trans Am (346); 4L60E; Yank PT4000; AFR 205; Crane 224/232; 3000 lbs; 06/08
JNorris 10.74@125.90; 98 Camaro Z28 (346); 4L60E; TCI-4000; Trick Flow 215; LG 230/230; 3370lbs; 02/07
pirate3 11.16@121.95; 00 Z28 (346); TH350; TCI 4200; self ported heads; 242/248/.610/.615/111; 3350lbs; 4/08
4psi 11.368 @ 120.77; 1999 Z28 Camaro (346); A4; TCI 4400;PRC 5.3 stage 2.5/ms3; 3300lbs; 9/08
HEAVY CAR that make for about .3-.4th over my car.
GTO1_OHIO 11.768@118.12; 2004 GTO (346); A4 Rossler; Vig 3200; AFR 205; FTI 224/228; 3745lbs; 11/2007
The weight on the cars is all pretty close but the fastest speed and quickest ET is the lightest car Alll 4000+ stalls as well but the top of the list is running AFR 205's
09-21-2008, 05:00 PM
#76
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today on a private highway ( lets say its private funded with tax payers dollars- lol) i had the honor of sitting side by side a 07 z06, headers, cam and tune. from 30-140 i had pulled him over 6 cars, the owner of the z06 filmed this and i should be getting it soon. when we pulled off the highway on to a side street, he could not believe i was only on motor and didnt have the bottle or supercharger. i told him what was done to my car and he still didnt believe me that it was just a 383, he swore up and down that i had to have an engine bigger than his....tfs make big power.
09-21-2008, 06:40 PM
#77
WS6TransAm01,
Like i stated earlier your car is bad and you can shift your *** off, but
how can you expalin that your car runs the same or better ET's and MPH than
car's with more cubes, or with turbos/blowers and nitrous? Heads and cam can only do
so much and since your car is super fast i'm really curious how you can out run the
cars i just mentioned? Is your car logged out? I would appreciate it if you can shed
some light on this. Thanks.
Like i stated earlier your car is bad and you can shift your *** off, but
how can you expalin that your car runs the same or better ET's and MPH than
car's with more cubes, or with turbos/blowers and nitrous? Heads and cam can only do
so much and since your car is super fast i'm really curious how you can out run the
cars i just mentioned? Is your car logged out? I would appreciate it if you can shed
some light on this. Thanks.
09-22-2008, 08:28 AM
#79
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Thanks CRAZY.... I would not want to speak for you or have Tony Speak for you.
"but I have a feeling you wont be getting either.. I smell it. LOL"
"but I have a feeling you wont be getting either.. I smell it. LOL"
09-22-2008, 08:45 AM
#80
today on a private highway ( lets say its private funded with tax payers dollars- lol) i had the honor of sitting side by side a 07 z06, headers, cam and tune. from 30-140 i had pulled him over 6 cars, the owner of the z06 filmed this and i should be getting it soon. when we pulled off the highway on to a side street, he could not believe i was only on motor and didnt have the bottle or supercharger. i told him what was done to my car and he still didnt believe me that it was just a 383, he swore up and down that i had to have an engine bigger than his....tfs make big power.