Cam info for Kip...
Thread Starter
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,058
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Well, just going by what you said how you lost 25 horsepower going to the TFS245 and a Comp Cams solid roller, I would be looking at the heads or anything that might have been changed or happened during the build or tune. I would look at everything. But, I have watched you on here, I know you will keep working until you find it.
I'm going to give the cam and heads a Holley Hi Ram to eat through and see what happens next.
TECH Junkie
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,092
Likes: 11
Here is what I find interesting comparing your motor with mine. I have an ls3 based 427 running the factory LS3 intake manifold with the "bars" modification. Ported factory LS3 throttle body. I am running a Cam Motion LLSR 244/252 with .650"lift at the valve. CNC LS3 heads that flow around 351cfm @ .600" lift. I think 358cfm @ .650" lift.
Now my motor makes peak power around 6600rpm. I would think that yours would be higher than the 5800rpm that you have.
Now my motor makes peak power around 6600rpm. I would think that yours would be higher than the 5800rpm that you have.
Yes. That will be what overlap will measure at the cam/lifter. The examples that I gave in --> Post 13 were "net duration" and "net overlap". I converted these for you so that you could more easily compare the valve events to your first hydraulic camshaft. Sorry if all that technical stuff is a bit much, but you seem like you are at the point now where you want to understand the fine details.
Thread Starter
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,058
Likes: 1
Here is what I find interesting comparing your motor with mine. I have an ls3 based 427 running the factory LS3 intake manifold with the "bars" modification. Ported factory LS3 throttle body. I am running a Cam Motion LLSR 244/252 with .650"lift at the valve. CNC LS3 heads that flow around 351cfm @ .600" lift. I think 358cfm @ .650" lift.
Now my motor makes peak power around 6600rpm. I would think that yours would be higher than the 5800rpm that you have.
Now my motor makes peak power around 6600rpm. I would think that yours would be higher than the 5800rpm that you have.
Yes, that is the smoking gun right there. There is a problem somewhere that must be found. Did you change valve springs when you went to the new head? What springs? What installed height? Seat pressure and open pressure?
The Hi Ram has shorter runner and more port taper than the Factory or FAST style intakes. It is going to want a camshaft with a sooner IVC. Something in the 50-52 degree range in order to maintain good torque at a reasonable RPM.
Yes. That will be what overlap will measure at the cam/lifter. The examples that I gave in --> Post 13 were "net duration" and "net overlap". I converted these for you so that you could more easily compare the valve events to your first hydraulic camshaft. Sorry if all that technical stuff is a bit much, but you seem like you are at the point now where you want to understand the fine details.
The Hi Ram has shorter runner and more port taper than the Factory or FAST style intakes. It is going to want a camshaft with a sooner IVC. Something in the 50-52 degree range in order to maintain good torque at a reasonable RPM.
Yes. That will be what overlap will measure at the cam/lifter. The examples that I gave in --> Post 13 were "net duration" and "net overlap". I converted these for you so that you could more easily compare the valve events to your first hydraulic camshaft. Sorry if all that technical stuff is a bit much, but you seem like you are at the point now where you want to understand the fine details.
It will be interesting to see the dyno graphs. The last LLR I did peaked at 7100 and was still making within 6 horsepower of peak at 7500 RPM. This was with 160/450 spring pressure and smaller duration and lift.
Thread Starter
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2003
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Thats more like what I would expect.
I talked to BT and we have come up with a few ideas to get power out of the combo.
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Verdad Gallardo Mr Tooley or as I like to call him "Hillbilly B", knows what I have so he should point you in the correct direction
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 328
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From: Baton Rouge La
11.5:1, 1 cylinder low on compression, TFS235s: (20 more rwhp than your cam, 10 more ftlb tq)
QXI/QXL Comp Cams Hydraulic Lobes:
249/265-114+5 Lift in 0.678 range/ great work by Martin on this one.
Change Heads and cam only:
11.5:1, TEA TFS245s:
Comp Cams SOLID ROLLER, not LOW LASH, 260/271-112+4: (700+lift) (5 less hp than your cam, 40 more ftlb) lash around 0.024-0.026
Rebuild same engine for compression issue:
13:1, TEA TFS 245s:
Cam Motion LLSR by Tick Performance(this was the worse combo of all, yet had more compression)
lash 0.0015 259/271-114+4 748/723 lift (which when degreed in about engine shop WAS NOT 4 adv, but 3 noting same comp cam above at same shop was exactly 4 deg advanced)
Just to clarify, I thought those cam specs Martin cam up with would be perfect. I am seriously questioning the TEA TFS 245s.
QXI/QXL Comp Cams Hydraulic Lobes:
249/265-114+5 Lift in 0.678 range/ great work by Martin on this one.
Change Heads and cam only:
11.5:1, TEA TFS245s:
Comp Cams SOLID ROLLER, not LOW LASH, 260/271-112+4: (700+lift) (5 less hp than your cam, 40 more ftlb) lash around 0.024-0.026
Rebuild same engine for compression issue:
13:1, TEA TFS 245s:
Cam Motion LLSR by Tick Performance(this was the worse combo of all, yet had more compression)
lash 0.0015 259/271-114+4 748/723 lift (which when degreed in about engine shop WAS NOT 4 adv, but 3 noting same comp cam above at same shop was exactly 4 deg advanced)
Just to clarify, I thought those cam specs Martin cam up with would be perfect. I am seriously questioning the TEA TFS 245s.
Thread Starter
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2003
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Hi, I saw your post when you sent it, but I wanted to give this thought before responding. Thank you for your offer and I hope you meant it sincerely. Remember I'm the guy paying for this mess, so I had to give it some thought. And, yes, I realize your loss would be turning new heads in to used ones if they fail and wow, I can't believe you would do that.
We both know if those heads work out, I would likely end up buying them though ->
Will those heads fit over my Wiesco dome pistons? I have 67-68 cc chambers now.
Will my Crower Rockers work w/those?
heads would need to be setup for solid roller spring pressures.
Do you have an estimate of PR length required?
Let me poke around and see what I can do about rockers and an intake before I commit myself. I think I may have access to a FAST102 for testing.
I'll try and call you on Thu.
We both know if those heads work out, I would likely end up buying them though ->
Will those heads fit over my Wiesco dome pistons? I have 67-68 cc chambers now.
Will my Crower Rockers work w/those?
heads would need to be setup for solid roller spring pressures.
Do you have an estimate of PR length required?
Let me poke around and see what I can do about rockers and an intake before I commit myself. I think I may have access to a FAST102 for testing.
I'll try and call you on Thu.
NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE SPECIFIC BUT.......................
You guys crack me up.
Its been proven that the TFS245 will make plenty of steam.
My turd would go well over 150 at sea level on motor.
How the hell can the heads be the problem???
Instead of changing you whole program , spend some time and figure out the current one.
If for some reason the ls3 heads don't meet your expectations, are you going to wait and see if someone offers up some Ls7 casting to try next????
P.S.
I RUN A CAMMOTION SOLID ROLLER THAT BOB AND I BRAINSTORMED ON TOGETHER SO THE CAM ISNT BROKE EITHER
You guys crack me up.
Its been proven that the TFS245 will make plenty of steam.
My turd would go well over 150 at sea level on motor.
How the hell can the heads be the problem???
Instead of changing you whole program , spend some time and figure out the current one.
If for some reason the ls3 heads don't meet your expectations, are you going to wait and see if someone offers up some Ls7 casting to try next????
P.S.
I RUN A CAMMOTION SOLID ROLLER THAT BOB AND I BRAINSTORMED ON TOGETHER SO THE CAM ISNT BROKE EITHER
Thread Starter
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,058
Likes: 1
NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE SPECIFIC BUT.......................
You guys crack me up.
Its been proven that the TFS245 will make plenty of steam.
My turd would go well over 150 at sea level on motor.
How the hell can the heads be the problem???
Instead of changing you whole program , spend some time and figure out the current one.
If for some reason the ls3 heads don't meet your expectations, are you going to wait and see if someone offers up some Ls7 casting to try next????
P.S.
I RUN A CAMMOTION SOLID ROLLER THAT BOB AND I BRAINSTORMED ON TOGETHER SO THE CAM ISNT BROKE EITHER
You guys crack me up.
Its been proven that the TFS245 will make plenty of steam.
My turd would go well over 150 at sea level on motor.
How the hell can the heads be the problem???
Instead of changing you whole program , spend some time and figure out the current one.
If for some reason the ls3 heads don't meet your expectations, are you going to wait and see if someone offers up some Ls7 casting to try next????
P.S.
I RUN A CAMMOTION SOLID ROLLER THAT BOB AND I BRAINSTORMED ON TOGETHER SO THE CAM ISNT BROKE EITHER
Don't get nervous for the TFS company, I am going to try and put a Mast intake on there instead of the Holley, if I can figure out the drive by wire stuff.