I’ve never understood using BR7 plugs on an NA motor. There’s a Tr7ix if you want a colder plug with projected tip. Tr6 have been great goto plugs for LS motors for me, but I’ve not run one above 11.5:1 compression so I’m not sure when the 7 becomes preferred. I know there are some examples of the BR7 being better…but it makes zero sense.

Popping fuses…I think I remember something from way back. You’re using IGN-1A coils right?

Did you power them directly from the battery and a dedicated power relay?

If not..swap back to stock coils, or you need to make some wiring mods! I can’t link to Tick Performance I don’t think…I used their smart coil harness plus the power supply kit with a 75A solid state relay and big gauge wire.

 

I have run the same plugs on multiple high compression configurations. Running them on my 13:0 to 1 440 right now and previously on my 13:8 to 1 445 without issue.

 

I’m running the tr6, 12.6:1, no issues on pump or e85, plugs look great

 

TR7ix in my 434 Jacob. I tried the TR6 early on, but I like the 7 better. I did go from .040” gap to .035” gap (Oem coils) and it likes that even better.
I’ve seen folks try to clean fouled plugs, but in my opinion, once they foul, trash them. I fouled prolly 5 sets in early tuning stages with the Mast Electronics I use. It was a big learning curve, prolly much like what your dealing with using the Holley stuff. I keep a couple new sets in the tool box Justin Case.

 

TR6 to TR7 is worth about 6whp loss. I ran TR7s at about 12.2 comp with no issues.

How's your great dane pup? Any pics of how she's looking now?

 

I am running IGN1A. BUT I ran them on the stock harness, directly powered, and they were fine. And I did get the Holley to directly power them just fine. It was a settings error on my part. Coil on plug Active Low vs just Coil on Plug was the difference there. Holley also carries the powered harnesses, so I do know what you're talking about. I was going to order those if choosing the correct setting in the HP did not work.

I do think that the BR7's are not cleaning themselves off, and are fouling up, but I'll know more here soon.

Thanks for the recommendations! I ordered a set of TR7IX, just thinking there's no reason they won't work great. I cannot describe how badly I don't want to end up in spark plug R&D mode.

That's a good point. All the start up tuning I did when the fueling was not optimal may well have fouled them up, and they're done. I didn't think so when I looked at them before, but all it's done is idle since then too and from chasing problems, it has not gotten very hot.

 

If I remember right a standard BR7EF is WAY cheaper than the iridium version which is why they're so popular when a TR6 won't cut it.

 

Yeah, they are like $6 a plug or something

 

OK, so it turns out, I'm a complete dumbass... I had swapped over to TR7's from the BR7's and had COMPELTELY FORGOTTEN that I did it. When I pulled the plugs, I discovered they were severely fouled. As in all 8 were misfiring - exactly like Chevelle described. So now, I have a set of TR7's on the way and might do better with TR6. Right now, the plan is to install the new TR7's and see what it does. I'm quite sure it'll do much better. I'll be adjusting the tune to command a 16:1 idle. My thinking is the O2 sensor is reading false lean and the mixture is overly rich. I won't be surprised if I end up at 18:1 honestly.

Let me just say, y'all have NO IDEA how seriously good a resource Chevelle is on this forum.

 

You may want to try open loop idle to start and see what it likes, then try to dial in closed loop control.

 

A few tips I learned during the long and awful process of tuning my idle with Holley HP EFI

Injector End Angle (IEA) had a huge influence on engine torque at idle. LS engines have poor fuel atomization at idle, so it helps to spray fuel on the back of a hot intake valve. GM takes care of this for you, Holley does not. Default setting in Holley software sprays fuel way after that (closes injector at piston BDC). Try backing up your IEA to between -80° to -120° at idle. I tested engine torque by using my clutch to put drag on the engine. Engine would die with IEA at default setting of 0°, and engine would roll out on clutch with IEA around -90°. Tremendous difference in idle strength and off-idle torque! It's a bit tricky though bringing that IEA back to normal as engine RPM increases. Too fast a change in IEA and you'll skip a combustion cycle and engine have a hiccup in its pickup. Member @Project GatTagO can set you up with really good IEA tables.

I've not experienced much difference of idle quality with changes of AFR other than just keeping the plugs healthy. My engine is fairly immune to large swings in AFR at idle.

As far as timing, I ran the timing up and down to find the inflection points in MAP readings. Be sure timing is retarded from where engine makes peak vacuum or else the spark-based idle control feature won't have much influence on idle. Ignition timing had a lot more effect on my idle quality than fuel.

Eventually you'll probably want to run open loop at idle. Any RPM where the O2 sensor is confused is probably going to run better open loop. You can set an RPM to disable learning, but that learning feature seems to have a far reach and will bleed over into the next two or three adjacent cells in the fuel map. I've had to extend non-learning all the way up to 1800 rpm on my engine or else the learning function bleeds over to lower RPM cells and screws up my fueling at low rpm. It takes time for that to happen but it does happen. I have some areas of my fuel map that are super sensitive to changes (very low throttle, low rpm) and that learning function was my nemesis until I figured out what was happening.

 

Fake news. Collusion. I’m calling BS.

 

Lol, there is a sensor most of us have that does a good job of letting us know if the car is running over rich. It's called the Mark 1 Nose.

 

Time for another update. Mixed news, but I'm pretty relieved.

I installed brand new plugs at stock heat range, increased dwell to 5.3 ms (and the coils took it without popping fuses, which is nice), Set the idle fueling to 18:1 AFR and fired it up. Engine ran noticeably better. Wife even ran out side to tell me how much better it sounded. So I came around front to listen, and all that racket is back. Wife says it didn't do it until i came around front. So, I asked her to go in the car and push the clutch in. let it out. Repeat. Yup the noise is coming from behind the flywheel. Which is really good news though, because it means I'm done chasing engine gremlins. I think as loud as the noise is that it is coming from the bellhousing area, because I deleted the dust covers, and it's a pretty open shot to the front of the car for any noises.

My guess on the noise right now is that the slave cylinder came loose and when I push the pedal it naturally stabilizes the slave and it quits knocking around. I can feel it banging even up at the throttle, and even that goes away with the clutch pedal pressed.

Car ran maybe three minutes, and I shut it down, because I could not just hear that noise and ignore it and tune through it. Pulled a few plugs to evaluate fueling. The headers were WAY hotter than last time I ran them. Definitely on the right track. The plugs however, after three minutes of running still carboned up quite a lot for only running a few minutes. So at this point, I think I'm going to keep cutting fuel until the engine just won't run and then add back a little bit. Then I'll just disable the closed loop at idle and be done with it. Also of note, I came inside and went back inside to make a call. After that I went back out to the garage, and the typical hours of residual fuel stench was notably absent. It definitely ran a lot more like it used to run on the OE computer.

After talking with Andrew (GatTagO) and Scott (Chevelle) I feel like I'm no longer grasping at straws and know what the car is doing.

 

Sounds like Darth's FGQ (feel-good quotient) just went up a few notches.
Glad to hear it man!

 

i have afr at 10.4/1 at idle after o2 adjustment of 14%. With so much overlap it pumps fuel straight out the exhaust when at idle

 

I meant to get this update in yesterday, but here goes...

I scaled the VE in the idle airflow regions bigtime, targeting 10 lb/hr of fuel flow. I also put it in open loop at idle so that the ecu doesn't start "helping". Now, before everyone throws rocks at me, I know the numbers i'm about to report indicate exhaust leaks, etc, but at this point, I think the cam is so big, it does not matter if the exhaust leaks.

I'm commanding a cold idle of 1200 rpm. 18 degrees of base timing, which I might increase, but for now, it's what I'm using based on how I got the engine running stable on the stock ECU.

She started up and ran at 700 rpm with full corrective spark advancing the spark to 32 degrees. WB read 35:1. Not joking. I let it run briefly like this and see how it did as it warmed up, but the noise from the clutch is too much. I can't listen to it and not react. The raw fuel smell was completely gone, though I didn't get a chance to pull a plug after this, but I'm betting they cleaned up significantly even from that short run.

From this point, I was pretty much interrupted the rest of the weekend with out of town visitors, and I flew out of town this morning, so I'm kind of stuck until I get back home. But my plan is this -- I'm going to slowly creep up on fuel until idle reaches the correct speed AND the spark averages the target spark value. Then, I'll verify the plugs and lock that in for the idle region.

I hope all that makes sense.

 

Dumb question, but just to confirm … “open loop at idle” means PE mode until 1200 rpm?

 

No it's way easier on the Holley. You can tell it not to go into closed loop under a variety of conditions. One of those is rpm. I just set it to stay open loop until 1500 rpm.

 

I found with a cam with 30 degrees overlap in a little 6.0 litre, it likes lots of timing at idle and part throttles. My AFR on wideband jumps around between 14 - 15:1 . It doesn't like being any richer. When i first got it running i thought i'd over done it and this cam will never idle properly. With enough messing with the tune the car now drives around barely different to a little 224/224 cammed deal other than the higher idle speed, and the sound of it. The 0411 pcm is all i need.

Base spark in drive ....

° 0 400 800 1200 1600 2000 2400 2800 3200 3600 4000 4400 4800 rpm
0.08 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 32 34 34 34 34 34 34 34
0.12 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 32 34 34 34 34 34 34 34
0.16 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 32 34 34 34 34 34 34 34
0.2 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 32 34 34 34 34 34 34 34
0.24 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 32 34 34 34 34 34 34 34
0.28 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 32 34 34 34 34 34 34 34
0.32 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 34.989010989011 34.989010989011 34 33.010989010989 33.010989010989 34 34 34
0.36 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 32 32 32 31.8901098901099 32 32 31.8901098901099
0.4 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
0.44 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
0.48 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
0.52 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
0.56 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
0.6 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
0.64 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
0.68 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
0.72 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
0.76 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
0.8 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
0.84 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
0.88 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
0.92 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
0.96 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
1 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
1.04 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
1.08 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
1.12 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
1.16 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
1.2 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30.989010989011 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
g


Throttle cracker airflow vs rpm...

0 0 1.88340221639972 5.62695476998434 7.51035698638405 7.51035698638405 7.51035698638405 7.51035698638405 7.51035698638405 7.51035698638405 7.51035698638405 7.51035698638405
2.81347738499217 3.75905380639449 5.62695476998434 7.51035698638405 9.39375920278377 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287
3.75905380639449 3.75905380639449 6.10749360709044 8.45593340778638 9.39375920278377 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287
3.75905380639449 4.69687960139188 6.57253119138666 8.45593340778638 9.39375920278377 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287
3.75905380639449 4.69687960139188 6.57253119138666 8.45593340778638 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287
3.75905380639449 4.69687960139188 7.51035698638405 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287
4.69687960139188 5.16191718568811 7.51035698638405 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287
4.69687960139188 5.62695476998434 8.45593340778638 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287
5.62695476998434 6.10749360709044 8.45593340778638 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287
6.10749360709044 6.10749360709044 8.45593340778638 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287
7.04531940208783 7.51035698638405 8.45593340778638 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287
7.04531940208783 8.45593340778638 8.45593340778638 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287
7.04531940208783 8.45593340778638 8.45593340778638 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287
7.04531940208783 8.45593340778638 8.45593340778638 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287
8.45593340778638 8.45593340778638 8.45593340778638 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287
8.45593340778638 8.45593340778638 8.45593340778638 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287
8.45593340778638 8.45593340778638 8.45593340778638 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287 12.695526051287