Quiet Cam Help for LSX454
06-11-2020, 07:37 PM
#21
I totally understand where the OP is wanting to go. I too have no tolerance for a cam that is the cause of less than smooth performance. Really no need for it especially if you're starting with 454 cid and not wanting everything that comes with a max effort cam. Not a fan of the wide LSA stuff either. Yes, a wide LSA will help get a smooth idle and good manners, and you can have big valve events without a whole lot of overlap. It will also get you into a very lazy street ride. Figured I'd throw a cam out there. Disclaimer: I do my own stuff cam wise on stock cube LS engines blown or NA. Have no experience with big cube stuff. I'd look at something like a 230/238 114+ whatever it takes to get a DCR in the mid 8's. Lift on the high side.
With that, madam chairman, the ******* from Texas yields the remainder of his time.
With that, madam chairman, the ******* from Texas yields the remainder of his time.
The following users liked this post:
G Atsma (06-11-2020)
06-14-2020, 11:50 AM
#22
Launching!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have the 228/240 Cammotion cam in a 416 with LS7 small bore heads and 12:1 compression also... I can say that it is VERY mild.... in a 454 I would honestly say it is just too small. I would go a couple steps up.... considering an LS1 with basically 100 cubic inches less can run a 228/228 and it idles/drives great...
OP,take note what the above members have said.
I get the feeling you are a bit pissed off/annoyed with the way the engine idles etc and just want it to drive smoothly.
I wouldn't think your current camshaft would be that bad in a 454.
Mick had a 239/254 114 LSA in his 454 and this drove great and his car is also manual.
This is with 18 degrees of overlap.
The absolute smallest I would go in that size engine is the 242/254 117LSA+4 camshaft I mentioned before.
14 degrees of overlap is NOTHING for a 454 and any competent tuner should be able to get it to drive very smooth with zero bucking/surging with a manual transmission.
With your compression also, it makes more sense to run a camshaft to suit.
With aftermarket cylinder heads the air speed etc would be higher which in turn helps with driveability when using larger camshafts.
I get the feeling you are a bit pissed off/annoyed with the way the engine idles etc and just want it to drive smoothly.
I wouldn't think your current camshaft would be that bad in a 454.
Mick had a 239/254 114 LSA in his 454 and this drove great and his car is also manual.
This is with 18 degrees of overlap.
The absolute smallest I would go in that size engine is the 242/254 117LSA+4 camshaft I mentioned before.
14 degrees of overlap is NOTHING for a 454 and any competent tuner should be able to get it to drive very smooth with zero bucking/surging with a manual transmission.
With your compression also, it makes more sense to run a camshaft to suit.
With aftermarket cylinder heads the air speed etc would be higher which in turn helps with driveability when using larger camshafts.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't get me wrong it drives great now actually, but the idle sound is too too much. I guess that is exactly what cams do. More air in + more air out = Louder engine.
I heard Z06 with nothing but headers and they sound beautiful at idle. You know that low Magnaflow V8 rumble. Its sexy. and doesn't sound like a 70s car.
Might sell the whole engine and have LME build me one for boost. Twin turbo will be from UPP.
Other than the cam motion LS7 S2 mentioned, this recommendation from spanks is the only other cam in this thread that actually meets the OP's request:
The OP has made very clear his tolerance for idle BS. I have worked with people who had -6 (negative six) overlap cams in 408's and STILL felt the cam was too choppy. I have also seen what 16 degrees overlap does in a 427, and it will still have some chop to it, and you can't tune all of it out. Yes a 454 will absorb some of that, but it won't suddenly make it act stock. And as to relying on tuning to tame a cam, go read the PCM section to find all you need to know about how often that is truly successful. Good tuners are getting rarer.
What makes speccing cams for other people so difficult is that it is difficult to avoid super-imposing your own preferences into the equation. This is a case where you err on the small side. This is not a customer who is going to potentially complaint because the cam left 10 hp on the table, but does have the potential to complain if the cam is still choppy after doing a cam swap.
The OP has made very clear his tolerance for idle BS. I have worked with people who had -6 (negative six) overlap cams in 408's and STILL felt the cam was too choppy. I have also seen what 16 degrees overlap does in a 427, and it will still have some chop to it, and you can't tune all of it out. Yes a 454 will absorb some of that, but it won't suddenly make it act stock. And as to relying on tuning to tame a cam, go read the PCM section to find all you need to know about how often that is truly successful. Good tuners are getting rarer.
What makes speccing cams for other people so difficult is that it is difficult to avoid super-imposing your own preferences into the equation. This is a case where you err on the small side. This is not a customer who is going to potentially complaint because the cam left 10 hp on the table, but does have the potential to complain if the cam is still choppy after doing a cam swap.
Fair enough.
It sounds to me it's the surge the OP wants to get rid of going by the tone of his post.
I don't think he means he wants it to sound like a 100% stock engine.
Stock like characteristics can mean different things to everyone.
14 degrees of overlap is nothing though.
It will only have a little note but drive smooth with a competent tuner.
Going from 28 degrees overlap to -1 is a huge change.
OP, can you elaborate on what you mean by stock like characteristics?
If you are wanting something with negative overlap, lower overlap etc...
Or do you just want to get rid of the surging as your main focus with a smoother idle than before?
It sounds to me it's the surge the OP wants to get rid of going by the tone of his post.
I don't think he means he wants it to sound like a 100% stock engine.
Stock like characteristics can mean different things to everyone.
14 degrees of overlap is nothing though.
It will only have a little note but drive smooth with a competent tuner.
Going from 28 degrees overlap to -1 is a huge change.
OP, can you elaborate on what you mean by stock like characteristics?
If you are wanting something with negative overlap, lower overlap etc...
Or do you just want to get rid of the surging as your main focus with a smoother idle than before?
I totally understand where the OP is wanting to go. I too have no tolerance for a cam that is the cause of less than smooth performance. Really no need for it especially if you're starting with 454 cid and not wanting everything that comes with a max effort cam. Not a fan of the wide LSA stuff either. Yes, a wide LSA will help get a smooth idle and good manners, and you can have big valve events without a whole lot of overlap. It will also get you into a very lazy street ride. Figured I'd throw a cam out there. Disclaimer: I do my own stuff cam wise on stock cube LS engines blown or NA. Have no experience with big cube stuff. I'd look at something like a 230/238 114+ whatever it takes to get a DCR in the mid 8's. Lift on the high side.
With that, madam chairman, the ******* from Texas yields the remainder of his time.
With that, madam chairman, the ******* from Texas yields the remainder of his time.
06-14-2020, 06:09 PM
#24
06-14-2020, 11:29 PM
#25
TECH Senior Member
The LS7 cam has WAY too much LSA to make it useful. It's almost as lousy as the LS9 cam, which has slightly more LSA.
06-15-2020, 09:11 AM
#26
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: My own internal universe
Posts: 10,446
Received 1,838 Likes
on
1,146 Posts
How does the ls7 lsa compare to the ls6 lsa?
06-15-2020, 10:04 AM
#28
TECH Senior Member
Early LS6 (204/211, .525/.525) LSA is 116
Late LS6 (204/218, .555/.551) LSA is 117.5
LS7 (211/230, .593/.589) LSA is 120
Late LS6 (204/218, .555/.551) LSA is 117.5
LS7 (211/230, .593/.589) LSA is 120
06-15-2020, 10:40 AM
#29
06-15-2020, 02:28 PM
#31
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: My own internal universe
Posts: 10,446
Received 1,838 Likes
on
1,146 Posts
There were two Ls1 cams. Early was 119.5 Lsa. Later was 116 lsa.
06-15-2020, 04:48 PM
#32
TECH Senior Member
Not even similar. There are four LS1 cams, all between 196-199 intake duration and 207-209 exhaust duration. The widest LSA was 119.5 for the 1998-2000 F body cam (198/209, .498/.497)
06-15-2020, 05:46 PM
#33
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: My own internal universe
Posts: 10,446
Received 1,838 Likes
on
1,146 Posts
LS7 cam - 210/230-120-3 (that's MINUS 3)
Made Up - 230/230-115+2
VE-------LS7---------230/230
IVC........48...............48
IVO......-18................2
EVO.......52..............52
EVC.......-2................-2
Three out of four valve events are exactly the same. The only thing that changes is the intake valve open. So, is the wide LSA the issue, or is the tiny duration on the intake lobe the real issue? Or.... Is the intake valve opening too late, resulting in BOTH the wide LSA and low intake duration?
The following users liked this post:
old motorhead (06-16-2020)
06-15-2020, 06:21 PM
#35
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: My own internal universe
Posts: 10,446
Received 1,838 Likes
on
1,146 Posts
There was a guy - Redbird555 I believe - that got past 520 on the stock LS7 cam and what one can only call max effort bolt ons.
06-16-2020, 11:02 AM
#37
Launching!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
06-16-2020, 12:22 PM
#40
TECH Senior Member
You KNOW they're getting the NTH degree when they spec 118.5 LSA.
Not 118 or 119. 118.5.
And 2.5 advance.
Not 2 or 3. 2.5.
You can't argue with that kind of hair-splitting! LOL
Not 118 or 119. 118.5.
And 2.5 advance.
Not 2 or 3. 2.5.
You can't argue with that kind of hair-splitting! LOL