Really disheartening to see the rust on the valve seats. I have been running pump e85 for the last couple years, and I dont have any rust on the valve seats. This is on gm ls3 heads though. Wouldnt think that as expensive as these heads are, that they would come with worse valve seats.

 

Methanol produces the same results, possibly worse at attracting moisture. I dont believe methanol is crap either, IMO. That's why I suggested fogging. Its proven and works and takes little effort. Obviously you prefer not to use E85 which is completely fine. To each his own. All I was saying was if you did not try fogging the engine, you would not see its effectiveness. My $.02 Good luck with the new combination hope it turns out well.

 

we got a 5 gallon additive...I'll go get the name, next break it's in the BM's somewhere...

Its What the PRO stock NA runs using unleaded in Australia...

 

Found this, later someone spoke on its use...

 

That looks like serious stuff. A couple gallons in a tankful will jack the octane nicely!

 

Was told by killer Cam they don't like to use or breakin a engine using Corn E85 and dumping more fuel in the cylinder. May Washout the rings. Tune has to be spot on...

Future reference..

On the gas G..I've look up everything beginning to usage. I'm getting there. Kind bored with this, with no more questions.

 

Not arguing and thanks, me too!
I ran Outlaw 10.5 in 1999 thru 2001 with a blown SBC on methanol. 400" w/ 14* Pro Action heads, 14-71 SSI hi-helix making 35# of boost. I used copper berrylium seats and coated Ti valves and did not have problems with corrosion. It is all about using the right parts or maintaining. Even then the bores looked like crap after awhile, etched and stained. As long as the rings seal it doesn't really matter. I ran many other methanol combos with roots blowers before that one. Most of time with Methanol fuels you use a top lube mixed in the fuel to help with lubricating the engine on the induction side. I preferred cotton candy fragrance. LOL

IMO, the seats used in the Frankenstein heads are nothing special and not suitable for E85 or other dry fuels. Going to need to upgrade. Stock OE LS head casting use seats that are more tolerable to dry fuels, of course since they support flex fuel. The proof is in the pictures I posted. Again, 8 pulls from BRAND NEW, less than a few weeks from running to tear down in a very moderate climate. Just sharing info.,,,

 

Damn, thats a nice nova!

 

I agree w/ everything said so far and thank you for sharing real world results. I am positive a LOT of people are thankful for the info, just not vocal about it. It's straight up sad that FED, as much as they come on here promoting their products, bragging about big power per cube, cannot even make a simple comment on this. This is their products in action. They even made you pay for a re-do, which, is questionable that if it was any fault of yours, at all. Wishing you all the best w/ the builds. Next time maybe some Brodix BS7's or CID's FTW.

 

Just think of others who also purchase those heads that do not have the skill set or know how helicoil has. I know for a fact something like that would have never been a thought it my mind probably like most.

 

Hey guys, Gavin from FED here. I'd like to shed some light on this issue...

First off, I'd like to add that the F-Series heads were designed far from what an OEM head is used for. These were not designed to run on your daily driver street car to run to work and back so yes, they don't use an oem style guide or seat. For starters, the bronze guides...they're soft. We can run a tighter guide clearance with the use of these guides, but...they wont last as long as a powdered metal guide found on OEM heads. The valve seats, also from CHE (these guys only make the best guides and seats in the industry, no big deal) are a ductile IRON. And unless you already know, Iron is porous. Meaning it absorbs very easy whether it be oil orrrr....WATER. Everyone knows that E85 can contain water as does Methanol. The issue here isn't that it only ran 8 dyno pulls...the issue is that it ran 8 dyno pulls and then SAT for who knows how long. I was the salesman that took care of this order to refresh the heads and I don't recall how long the engine sat but i know the words "quite a while" was used. Anyone that runs ethanol should know that if you're not going to run the vehicle for some time, that the fuel should be drained and a petroleum based fuel such as pump gas should be run through for a few minutes to coat everything in the system such as fuel pumps, filters, seals, the lines themselves, injectors or carb jets, as well as engine parts like valve guides, valves, valve seats, cylinder walls, and piston rings. Ethanol is literally alcohol. It washes out everything in its path and leaves moisture behind. Those running ethanol should also know that you need to change your oil much more often as alcohol is very thin and gets past the rings fairly easily.


The issue here is far from the heads. It's from not being diligent on maintenance with the use of ethanol...

Those needing physical proof of what happens with iron and water, leave any vehicle outside in the rain for a few days and then go look at your brake rotors. Sorry, but I feel that this is common sense...


As far as us not covering this "re-do", lack of maintenance is not covered by any kind of warranty by anybody. In fact, aftermarket parts are never warrantied, however, we do our best to make things right if in fact there is an issue with our product on our part. In this case, it's not. That's like taking a head from us out of the box and running it on an offshore powerboat in salt water then telling us we need to warranty something because the water rusted seats and corroded the heads.

Sorry if I come off rude or defensive, but we try VERY HARD to keep customers happy and we take pride in our products and customer service. When not all the info is shared, it can definitely make us look bad when the issue isn't even our fault. If something is in fact our fault (trust me, there have been mistakes. We are human.) we make it right. Our sales/tech team goes to bat for our customers every single day here.

 

As long as everyone learns from something and how to correct a problem before hand... what's the problem it's a mechanical experiment.

Heli moved on...Show what not to do or what to do so this Doesn't happen again. No blame game And it's all good. **** Happens..

 

Sorry I didn't mean to play the Blame Game, though fingers were already being pointed at FED for the use of our valve seats and not covering the rebuild bill.

 

Understand my post was not finger pointing in any way, shape, or form. I was simply making a point in terms of the dumbed down scenario where some speed shop is going to sell (perhaps install) these very heads to someone with zero know how and potentially end up in the same scenario. I'd almost be inclined to add some type of verbiage in your "General Recommendations for Frankenstein Cylinder Heads" section stating some type of disclaimer about the use of fuel(s) and or potential risks.

* Due to the use of today's ethanol based fuels it is highly recommend that the engine be exercised with a petroleum based fuel between short and extended periods of use.

 

I apologize if I took the post a bit too personal. We do have a green disclaimer in each both with TONS of warnings and recommendations, however, a warning of such should really come from the fuel manufacturer. Ductile iron seats are used not only in FED heads, but PRC, Mast, Dart, Brodix, TFS, Edelbrock, and more. Aside from powdered metal, its the most commonly used valve seat in the automotive industry.

IMO the seat isn't the issue, it's the fuel. For what it's worth, I don't dislike E85. I use it in my own vehicles.

 

We live and learn ....

We all are Lsx family who want to out shine the competition
351 stock block is funny...

 

Hi Gavin, thanks for chiming into my thread. Dyno results coming next week, still really interested to see what these heads will do. Willing to share all my information. I have done similar 416"-427"s with LS7 heads. I checked out the F710's at PRI, read up on them and decided to give them a whirl.
All valid points you made. I don't recall seeing any E85 notices in the paperwork, but I am not too concerned, I didn't read the Frankenstein website or do much researching on your product in regard to DRY fuels, pretty familiar with them. Been at this game I believe longer than yourself. lol. Just sayin'! (all in fun)
I ran what I wanted to run and test on, not really upset about it. Hopefully my thread doesn't portray that. I definitely did not expect to see the consequences I did, that is for sure. I knew the heads had iron seats up front.

I just wanted to add clarity to your statement above in regards to this part,
The issue here isn't that it only ran 8 dyno pulls...the issue is that it ran 8 dyno pulls and then SAT for who knows how long. I was the salesman that took care of this order to refresh the heads and I don't recall how long the engine sat but i know the words "quite a while" was used.
That is not accurate information.. As stated in my thread. The engine was dyno'd back to back 2 consecutive days. First day on E85, second day on C23. I brought the engine sealed up back to my climate controlled shop where it was assembled. I certainly could have, but did not spray the exhaust ports after pulling it off the dyno - my bad., but what I have represented is 100% accurate. I am a detailed kind of guy, lol. I am meticulous with my engine work and builds and mostly interested in the data, more than anything and want to learn and improve.

I leaked it down the following day trying to determine why it didn't produce the HP I was expecting, not even thinking about the effects of E85 honestly at the time. I got around to disassembling it within a couple of weeks from that point, probably less. This engine did not sit for any unknown length of time as you summarized. The MAX would have been about two weeks from the time I put it together to when I broke it down after dynoing. This wasn't some long, drawn out kind of build. I feel that is important to be known.

Any who, I contacted you with what I found and asked some questions and sent some pics. I was told (based on the pics I sent) the heads had been hot, as in an aggressive tune/over-timed, you focused on the discoloration of the aluminum from where the spark began igniting the fuel coming from the intake valve and the 'appeared' erosion in the casting.- Illusions of photos. Then there was speculation of tulip'd exhaust valves. Neither was the case, I knew that, but you only had pictures to reference. I had spark plugs, 4 sets to look at, which I also sent you pictures of when the theories of running the engine HOT (ignition lead) were being tossed around. At the time, you commented you shared the pics with Chris and determined all the above. I appreciated all the effort you provided. Customer service was good. I also mentioned to you what ignition timing numbers I had ran. I read the plugs and I knew that was not the issue. FWIW, these heads require quite a bit less than the normal 12* Ls7 stuff I have ran in the past..

You were very accommodating and quick to respond (much appreciated) and convinced me to send the heads in, which I did, no real regrets. The service work you guys do is priced on the high side for sure, but you are a top notch, state of the art shop, so kind of expected. Hindsight, I would have likely handled what I had done locally to save some money. I was mainly interested to see if there was 'the human error' factor causing my leaks..

My reason for sending them in was to have you guys touch the seats off. I believe based on what you communicated that there was interest on your side to see them. I was not able to verify the seat concentricity without cleaning the rust off, but I didn't want to touch anything if I was going to be sending them to you. I knew I could not replicate the seat angles on the heads, I even asked for specs on the valve job looking to find a cutter, or have one made for my VGS 20, which I didn't expect to get. I also knew they were done on a CNC/Newen seat machine..
I was also told Frankenstein would not stand behind the heads if I worked on them. Hindsight, I would have likely handled what I had done locally to save some money. I was mainly interested to see if there was 'the human error' factor you referenced then and now causing my leaks..

All in all you were very good to deal with. No problems here, I paid for everything I got. I am just hoping these heads produce the HP I was told they would, my own scientific experiment if you will. I have yet to see any real convincing build threads with supporting data that matches the HP numbers shared, even on the FB forums for NA builds like this one.. They heads look great on paper and the workmanship is second to none - props!

No harm, no foul. Forums are meant to share info. I suppose the argument here, (if someone wanted to argue (because I don't - lol) is that people running E85 need to do their due diligence when they turn the engine off. I think for many, that is not something they will want to do, I know I wouldn't want to -the juice isn't worth the squeeze IMO, but to each their own.

It might be easier as a product manufacturer to use seat materials like GM uses in many stock LS2/3 head to cover the bases. Not really sure what the cost difference would be, but I wouldn't think GM is spending big dollars on valve seats for the hundreds of thousands of LS heads they produce.

 

Really hope you make the numbers your looking for this second time around, and hope mine don't end up disappointing. What did you end up for timing?

 

​​​​​​Thank you for taking the time to reply. I understand what you are saying and you guys do have a top notch facility. I also think that somebody totally missed the point when they selected the valve seat material for those heads. It's not about being " OEM" and maintenance in a performance specific motor is expected, but when E is the basically the affordable race gas and I would venture to say at a bare minimum 30% of the customers running your heads is running on E be it NA or FI, I would expect that concern to be somewhere in the mix. Nobody's perfect, but put yourself in the shoes of Helicoil. You had your own shop before, you know what it feels like, I'm sure. I'm not trying to be a dick, but when you plunk down 6k+ on heads/valvetrain, you do have certain expectations.

 

20 degrees