Wow, that is surprisingly low!

 

the better the chamber and efficient it gets the lower the number

 

This isn't the first time I have seen issues with seats in FED heads. I had a buddy of mine pull the heads off his 376 boost motor for end of season inspection and the valve seats were trashed. He bought them before the new and improved M311 FI (or whatever) heads were introduced. The new and improved M311 FI (or whatever) heads come with CHE valve seats which is pretty standard practice for heads made in the USA. We decided it was better to fix and sell the M311s and order some CID heads. Not a problem since.

 

Spent a lot of years on cars running straight E100, or Methanol.
Mechnical Kinsler/Hillborn fuel injection. I'd be surprised if some of it didn't apply to efi.

The only way I've seen this corrosion issue avoided is to run a top end lube designed to work with alcohol.
I use Klotz, others at the track use other products but we all run something. It makes a huge difference in
keeping the fuel system in good shape.

Also ,, we "back the fuel system down" before we even load the car in the trailer after a race night.
This consists on a sprint car of disconnecting all the injectors, and engaging the trans and pushing
the car backwards to force the mechanical pump to suck the fuel back to the tank.
Then we disconnect the fuel line between the pump and metering block on the injection
and we have a small can of e-free race gas with a shot of the top end lube in it that we use a
pump to push back through all the engine plumbing to the injector lines.

When we get the car back to the shop, THAT NIGHT we pull the injectors and they go in a sonic cleaner.
Even by then, with a magnifier you can see the methanol crystals in the injector screens.
Then we dump the oil out of the dry sump and pan, That's like 4+ gallons of synthetic .. and its shot. 60 to 90 minutes of run time.
We happen to run redline racing oil.. but about everybody runs a boutique oil of some sort.
We put it in a clear tank to check for junk and there is usually visible alcohol in the oil once it sets for few minutes,
the oil is left there so it can separate and settle any metal out for checking later, we also cut the main oil filter and pull
the oberg filter. The oberg screen goes in the sonic as well.

Many sprint racers chase DNF's trying to leave the fuel in the lines,, you end up with lines/metering blocks/injectors clogged with crystals. even a week and its a mess. Sometime you get lucky,, but eventually .. its 4 hours of dismantling itty bitty parts and cleaning them and running brushes through fuel lines..

but its still darn fun..

 

This photo caught my attention a couple of months back when I ran into my issue..This is another forum members F710 headed engine which I believe ran on gas, dyno time only. Notice the rust on the valve and seat.




Most know CHE is a quality vendor of cylinder head parts, but every manufacturer has a line of cheaper components. I would assume the logic used by Frankenstein is to keep costs down to stay somewhat competitive in the market place, but if there are problems that are evident I would hope adjustments come to their product..

Here is a stock 6.2L L92 head I machined last week. Not all, but the majority of these I see use this seat material. They wear very little and seem to never have the corrosion issues I saw on my F710s so early in their life. FWIW.


Not bashing on FED with this info, but I am not sure the quality of their chosen valve seat materials seems to compare to the quality of their machine work and castings. Even the coated steel valves used seem to rust up prematurely..

 

I'll try to post up a picture of the heads we pulled off that turbo car and post them up. They're even worse. Its really about the time lost. He missed a major race because of it. I'm sure the heads flow great, the car made plenty of power and we weren't even leaning on it. BUT all that but that does us no good if they're broke.

 

Here is the picture of the head. 14 degrees of timing, race fuel and 20lbs of boost.

 

So your rust issues could have not really been from the e85, if That other one you posted was only on race gas? Would mixing a top end lube in the fuel help with the rust in the valve seats?

 

My issues were likely related to the E85.
I will pay close attention to how it responds to the C14 this time around.

 

Where is the issue here?

 

Look between the valves, aluminum is missing. The valve seats are moving around in the head.

(Not pictured) If you shine a flash light down the exhaust runner, you can see daylight around the valve. The valve seats are trashed.

 

Damn, O.K. - daylight through the ports is not good!
What was the outcome?

 

They're out getting fixed and we bought some CID heads.

We are putting legitimate valve seats in the M311 heads and theyll be for sale. We cant keep having failures. If the valve seats are that cheap, what does that say about the rest of the head?

 

The material missing between the seats is a result of high heat in an area that doesn't have much material. Our F-Series now have interlocking seats to prevent this, though its hardly an issue. The seats moving around, which is more likely that the valve or valve seat angle of the seat is tuliping, could be a result of lots of things to include insufficient spring seat pressure or too heavy of a valvetrain for the application. (just one example). We haven't had any issues with seats moving around on F-Series heads or M311 heads for that matter.

Sorry to see you feel this way, though i'm sure the guys over at CID will take care of you.

 

Same story we got on the phone. Of course its not your fault..... These are a perfectly good Chinese head and valve seat combo. Sorry to see you feel this way? You weren't sorry when you took our money for these heads. Nor anyone else in this thread that has purchased FED products and are having / had issues.

• Intake Valve Seats – Ductile Iron
• Exhaust Valve Seats – Ductile Iron

^^^^^^^^^^ This was copied straight from FEDs website pertaining to the M311 heads. What brand valve seats are they? Be careful before you say CHE because we called CHE first thinking they were CHE and they told us that these valve seats are NOT CHE. A very well respected individual in the LS world told us that these valve seats came on the heads when they came from china. Care to dispute that? When we sent them to our machine shop to be fixed, the machinist used the words "dog ****" and "worse than factory" to describe the seats.

Casting outsourced overseas. Engineered, Machined and Assembled by FED in the USA. <<<<<< Right off the FED website. Yeah Yeah we missed it. Our mistake. Figured since it was on your website, you wouldn't mind me posting it here. Valve seats look familiar.....

https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...c7c7370eTnfous

^^^^^^^ Look familiar too?

This is a quote from the Alibaba (China) website.
Features
1.T6-aluminum castings are T6-heat-treated, low-silica alloy. This makes them similar in strength to 6061-T6 billet and the capability to be machined and welded is also notable.
2.A raised runner design on both intake and exhaust ports is said to allow for more efficient cylinder filling, resulting in better high-rpm operation without sacrificing low- and midrange performance.
3.The exhaust-port exit is on center with the valve, which results in substantially better flow characteristics.

This is a quote from FED. Right off the website. F710 heads specifically.
A357 T6 Aluminum Castings – T6 heat treated, low silica alloy. Similar in strength, machine-ability and weld-ability to 6061-T6 billet.
Raised runner design on both intake and exhaust – Raised runner design allows for more efficient cylinder filling, better high-rpm operation without sacrificing low and mid-range performance.
Exhaust port exit is on center with valve – Substantially better flow characteristics.

Who is copying who here? Just a coincidence?

When we called FED and ordered them, we told FED what the application was, FED spec'd the heads and we even opted for the better inconel exhaust valve. Its not like we told FED that they were going on grandma's Camaro, we told FED it was a turbo car. Everything on this head was bought from FED and for the application as discussed on the phone. FED valve seats, FED valves (inconel exhaust and stainless intake), FED locators, PAC springs, all of it. So if its a valvetrain issue, its still an FED parts problem. Let me be clear here, we don't want anything more from FED. We learned our lesson, we moved on. I just wanted to let readers know and see what exactly is going on here. Every time there is a problem with an FED head, its not FED's fault, it's the customers fault. Then the answer is always "buy the F series head." Apparently when you buy the F series head, its still not their fault. Glad we didn't pull the trigger on that.

The heads made good power. Credit where credit is due. But again, that does us no good if they're broke after about 10 races.

 

Sorry for the hijack, just upsets me to see multiple people going thru the same **** and then to have someone from FED come in and tell us its our fault and not the heads just pushed me over the edge.

I'll lay off.

 

so i obviously understand the wording coincidence in the link, but the f710 is an ls7 port not an ls3 port. head does look similar tho, but other than those 2 things is there something else im missing here? i was highly considering the f710 at one point and now im on the fence

 

I'm just putting information that is readily available online, asking questions and stating my personal experience. You definitely need to shop around. Call CID, Tony Mamo, Mast, WCCH and all the other head companies and get prices and more importantly, listen to what they're saying. Are they interested in your build or are they just trying to push heads out the door? What are others experiences with the company?

I chose CID for the turbo car I was talking about and for my personal car. John answered the phone and was genuinely interested in my build and I felt like he wanted to be a part of it. I didn't just get a guy on the forum or a dedicated "answer the phone" guy. He texts and calls me to just check in and see how the build is going. I've known Tony Mamo to do the same thing. I like doing business with people like that. I had to choose between Mamo and CID and I chose CID. Both are great, well respected companies and they know what they're doing. Both are class act individuals but John at CID cut me a better deal on a set of heads that were every bit as good as Mamo's so I went with CID heads. Hell, you might talk to Richard at WCCH and buy a set of his bad *** All Pro heads.

Point is to call and talk to these people and do your research. Don't get wrapped up in marketing.

 

appreciate the input and you clarifying.

when shopping around for options potentially for my second na build, i emailed wcch, i think cid, and fed. fed was the only one who responded quickly, responded to my second email saying ill get more info to specifically answer my questions, never heard back. between cid and wcch, one didnt respond, and the other took about 14 days to respond with what you would expect from a salesman.

 

I've never been an emailer, I want to talk to someone so I can get to know them. I can PM you John at CID's number if you'd like.

I think I have Tony Mamo's number too if you want it also.