When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
For starters I'll give a little information about what goals I have and where I have been stuck and am seeking the knowledge of some members here. I have a 84 s10 that I'm in the process of rebuilding. I've already done the molly cage. Has Ladder bars, shocks. Have fuel system etc. As I'm waiting for the odds and ends to come through, I've been brainstorming about the engine. As for the use of the truck. It will be for no prep. Some time on the track but the focus is the 1/8. Street cruising but no real extensive highway use. The plan is to put the ls in with around 480whp n/a and shake it down. Later when turbo have it be safely about to go up to 800whp with pump e85. The setup with be turbo ls, th400, 12 bot, ladder bars. The issue I'm having is which direction I should go in. Build vs Buy. I have a couple ideas I've been comparing costs of. In hopes of some guidance on possible oversights I may have made or under estimating costs(highly likely) I thought I would list them out.
#1 Build it the summit way 408 580+hp $12,000????
I used their Project 1000 as a template to calculate costs. I would buy a block instead of ordering one which should save $1,500 in itself. As for the heads, they will either be the 317,821/823 off marketplace with new springs and trunnion upgrade. I was suggested to go to CT Performance in Vineland, NJ. To my knowledge an very reputable machine shop. It will cost $3,000 for the machine work as well as assembly of the short block(Including cam etc)
#2 Borowski Boost Ready - 6.0 600hp $15,300
Same as tsp, no FDA's. Would also have to pay shipping.
#3 Texas Speed 408 620hp with Terminator X $17,800
This 408 has no front drive accessories. I'd also have to pay shipping which will probably add around another $1,000 I'd say to be safe. The cost may be reduced as I would try to get it without the DBW TB pedals etc
#4 Borowski 427 Aluminum block 708hp with Terminator X $20,000
Same as other two engines shipping no FDA's etc
I wasn't expecting to run on this long I do apologize. I just didn't want to be super vague with a basic "tell me what to buy to get x hp" question. All help would be appreciated as I'm a little hesitant about pulling the trigger because its a large chunk of change haha. As with everyone I assume the cheaper the better am I right. With that said sensible money spent is worth saving a bit more. I have 4yrs into this truck whats a couple more months.
If all you want is 800hp you can use whatever shakes out of the junkyard.
I just put together a ls3, all stock short block, mild Port work on heads, chamber softened, 1/2” head studs summit cam, the usual other sbe upgrades and couldn’t give the thing away so now it’s in my hard tire car. It sneezed out over 800whp at like 18 psi with minimal effort on tuning.
04+ ls motors aren’t made of 50% butter 5% beer cans and 45% steel like sbcs are. 03 and earlier will also survive 800whp but its a narrower margin.
its all in the tune.
Option #5. used good compression alum 5.3 or 6.0 gen4 for under $1k. Add BTR LS9 style head gaskets, head studs, turbo cam, new lifter trays, IWIS timing chain, front/rear main seals, pushrods/dual springs (BTR), larger injectors (Bosch 210's for future growth) and suitable intake manifold with WARR 92mm throttlebody (cable) or 90mm LS2/LS3 DBW TB. Tops around $4K in parts or so. Then add a turbo for the power you want and stock exhaust manifold flipped forward with a Y pipe connecting it to the turbo and make as much power as the heads will keep down (1200hp+).
Here's my truck manifold single turbo setup with 2.25" crossover to the turbo, 60mm Wastegate, Precision GTS76 turbo (older unit rated at 1150hp), and 3.5" transitioned to 4" downpipe. All used parts... I'm running a Trailblazer 180K mile alum 5.3 with the above mods and LS6 intake with Holley 160lb injectors. Should easily make 1000rwhp on pump e85. I did splurge on a Holley Dominator EFI. The top pipe is the 60mm wastegate discharge which is 2.5" diameter and ties back into the 4" downpipe by the bottom of the firewall.
A
Pete Harrell (Harrell Engine & Dyno) every now and again has Beer Money Edition L33 block short blocks on FB for around $6000 (builds it in iron as well) and I think would put a set of small bore MAST heads on it for around another $4-5k. I can promise you that setup would far exceed what your current goal appears to be a good amount less.
Pete Harrell (Harrell Engine & Dyno) every now and again has Beer Money Edition L33 block short blocks on FB for around $6000 (builds it in iron as well) and I think would put a set of small bore MAST heads on it for around another $4-5k. I can promise you that setup would far exceed what your current goal appears to be a good amount less.
Appreciate the suggestion. I’ll be sure to look into that👍
Damn man that 428 must sound awesome! 880 HP all motor is wild
My instagram is my nick - jayyyw
I have a few videos of it screaming to almost 9000rpms!
Went 178 in the half mile and "should" trap upper 150s in the 1/4mi
My instagram is my nick - jayyyw
I have a few videos of it screaming to almost 9000rpms!
Went 178 in the half mile and "should" trap upper 150s in the 1/4mi
If you are building this engine yourself, then your math is way off. I built a turbo LC8 (6.0L) last year for about $6k. It has stock crank, rods, heads, and intake. I had to bore it out due to rusty cylinders, so it ended up with forged pistons (.030" over). The only real "upgrades" were main and head studs, and the Summit "Ghost" cam. Everything else was either stock or stock replacements. All the new parts and machine shop costs were still half of what you are talking about. Even with this mild of a build, the engine made 490hp at the crank on pump gas. With 8psi of boost, it will be over 800hp easily, and run on pump gas.
I don't understand why people think full engine builds need to cost over $10k. My next engine will likely be a 416-418 stroker. With the parts I have now, the expected machine shop costs, and the parts I still need to buy, I'm expecting this engine to cost about $6500. If you take your time and shop around, you can put an engine together for way less than what you see on Hot Rod, or Engine Masters. If you pay someone to build an engine for you, and buy everything brand new, then yeah, it's gonna cost $15k or more. Do it yourself, use stock/used parts where possible, and it should be around $6k or less. It just depends on your available time and capability.
#1 is what it is. Built short blocks are around $5500 from the research I've done. Find some used heads and install new springs, etc. Get a cam.
#2, I've found that machine shops can be way backed up for building motors. I am building my own LS, and so the machine shop will just do the machining in between other jobs. And that leads to #3, what is your personal goal? For me, I've raced for a long time, and I've had two professionally built motors, so at this point, I want to build it myself just to build it myself. It's a personal goal for me to build as much of my car as possible and reasonable, except of course for boring the block, or balancing the crank, since I can't do that myself, and I will have someone else build the TH400.
800 wheel at 3,000# is capable of like 5.50s in the 1/8, and for no prep that's pretty fast and you must be a very serious racer. Since you are running a turbo, you don't need some higher cubic inch motor, or need to spend a bunch there. Just good rods and forged pistons, and you are good to go. Running E85 is a good choice, as it will keep your intake air temps down, and people a lot of times overlook the importance of keeping IATs down.
If you want it done quick and you have the cash, then a built short block makes sense, and then find some used heads and throw it together yourself.
And what's this front drive accessories talk about, with your option 3? Get rid of that stuff, run a manual steering rack. Man, my build, I can't imagine if I had a bunch of accessories to work around too. I try to build things clean and easy to work on. You are building a drag car that you can drive to a cruise in if you want to. What turbo setup are you going to run? What is the fitment going to be like? The more accessory stuff you have the bigger challenge it will be and the harder it will be to work on.
I like option #5, but it just depends on what you want to do yourself and what your timeline is. Your build is similar to mine, basically a race car/hot rod that can be driven on the street some.
I don't plan on building the short block myself. If I buy a short block by the time I get one shipped and with taxes it will be a bit over $7,000 from what I've found on websites. I can get a rotating assembly for $2,500 and machine shop costs of around $1,500 for machining with the option for assembly including cam etc for $1,000. Costing $2,000 less with no additional charges. That is with all summit type internals though. 800whp reliable probably would be a better way of putting it. I do plan on turning up the boost but unsure to what extent in the future but don't want to cross my fingers well I'm doing so.
I was going to go to the machine shop but when I seen Borowski has options with the terminator X and the engine tuned it made me second guess the route I was intending to take. I came to the forums with this question because I have no experience with the cost of machine shops. I've heard there is a lot of cost that's unforeseen. To what extent I don't know which is why the other options of turn keys engines are quite a higher price point on paper.
Yes, there can for sure be unforseen costs simply because with a used block/heads there may be things that come up. If you want to get this thing done and get racing it, then a long block of some type is the way to go. Nothing at all wrong with doing that. And if you have a cage in your car, odds are you will want to go faster and faster, so you want something that's "over built." Do it right the first time.
TSP has a long block, 376, that would be $12,300 shipped with all the goodies, like head studs, main studs etc.
I would consider something like that if you are really going to flog the #### out of this thing. Like you wrote above: fast, cheap, reliable. Choose two. Trying to save money on a race engine rarely saves a person money in the long run. I have three used LS blocks, and when I add it all up in the end, I probably could have bought a long block, lol, but my thing is I want to build it myself, just because that's what I want to do. And I am going to build the other two engines, too, just for fun.
My uncle always says, "When it comes to racing, there's no substitute for cubic dollars."
Over building is the train of thought for sure. I don’t know how well stock ls parts hold up but I know how I plan on driving it lol I was looking more into 408+ for out of boost power and needing least amount of psi to hit targeted hp goals. If my thinking isn’t wrong which is highly possible going fully forged I might as well go 408 since 364 vs 408 is a difference of the cost of boring.
id like some solid n/a power as well since I’ll be running it n/a at first because it’s a complete rebuild of the s10. I’ve never done a turbo car so I’d like to make sure I get a solid base for suspension and get used to the terminator x system before going all in.
The difference is not in the bore. A 364/376 has a 3.622 stroke, and a 408 has a 4.000 stroke.
The crate engines that GM builds, for example the LSX 376 B15 that's built for boost, has a 3.622 stroke. There are reasons why a shorter stroke motor is better than a stroker. We have a Hellcat, and Dodge put a 6.2 (376 ci) in those rather than their 6.4 (392 ci). There may have been tooling reason for this, but also a shorter stroke engine is going to reduce piston speed, which means all things being equal, the engine will be stronger, and there's less side loading and a better rod ratio, at least that's my understanding, but I'm not an engineer nor am I a professional engine builder.
I don't think the 408 is worth the extra 25-50 NA power you would make anyway, and there are clearly benefits to a shorter stroke motor. BTW, the bore is a 4.00 bore for the 376 which is good to help the heads breath and for boost, too.
And that TSP crate engine has Johnson 2110R lifters, too. For the crate motors you have to look very close at them. Do they have ARP studs? What lifters are included? What about the front and rear and top covers, etc.
The difference is not in the bore. A 364/376 has a 3.622 stroke, and a 408 has a 4.000 stroke.
The crate engines that GM builds, for example the LSX 376 B15 that's built for boost, has a 3.622 stroke. There are reasons why a shorter stroke motor is better than a stroker. We have a Hellcat, and Dodge put a 6.2 (376 ci) in those rather than their 6.4 (392 ci). There may have been tooling reason for this, but also a shorter stroke engine is going to reduce piston speed, which means all things being equal, the engine will be stronger, and there's less side loading and a better rod ratio, at least that's my understanding, but I'm not an engineer nor am I a professional engine builder.
I don't think the 408 is worth the extra 25-50 NA power you would make anyway, and there are clearly benefits to a shorter stroke motor. BTW, the bore is a 4.00 bore for the 376 which is good to help the heads breath and for boost, too.
And that TSP crate engine has Johnson 2110R lifters, too. For the crate motors you have to look very close at them. Do they have ARP studs? What lifters are included? What about the front and rear and top covers, etc.
Some of that info is not correct. Yes, the 364/376 has a 3.622 stroke, and a 408 has a 4.000 stroke. The 408 also has a 4.030 bore. So you would have extra machining costs with the 408. You might be thinking of the 402, which has a 4.0" bore and 4" stroke. If you add a 4" stroke to the 376, it becomes a 415 CID. The 376 is not a 4" bore. It has a 4.065" bore.
If you want good N/A power for now, and an engine that can make 800whp later on boost, then I would start with an LS3 long block with forged rods, pistons, and extra ring gap. The stock crank is fine. The stock heads are fine. Just use main and head studs to keep everything clamped down. The extra cu in will help spool a turbo faster, so a 408 is not a bad idea either. Ex: if you take a 1,000 hp turbo, and put it on a 408, then run it on a 376, the 408 will spool up faster than the 376. They will both make about the same hp, but the 408 will do it sooner (lower rpm).
I don't plan on building the short block myself. If I buy a short block by the time I get one shipped and with taxes it will be a bit over $7,000 from what I've found on websites. I can get a rotating assembly for $2,500 and machine shop costs of around $1,500 for machining with the option for assembly including cam etc for $1,000. Costing $2,000 less with no additional charges. That is with all summit type internals though. 800whp reliable probably would be a better way of putting it. I do plan on turning up the boost but unsure to what extent in the future but don't want to cross my fingers well I'm doing so.
I was going to go to the machine shop but when I seen Borowski has options with the terminator X and the engine tuned it made me second guess the route I was intending to take. I came to the forums with this question because I have no experience with the cost of machine shops. I've heard there is a lot of cost that's unforeseen. To what extent I don't know which is why the other options of turn keys engines are quite a higher price point on paper.
You might as well order a complete long block from TSP. It will come assembled, and with all machine work already done. Just install your choice of intake and wiring harness, and you're done. This would have been my only option a few years ago. Over the last few years, I built a small shop in my backyard, bought some tools/equipment, and can now build any LS combo I want. If you don't have this capability, then purchasing an engine is your only option. Unfortunately, it's gonna be very expensive no matter which company you buy an engine from.
06-02-2024, 09:26 AM
Build vs Buy 
