DavidNJ

If you are using the Porsche G50, I might consider a shorter than stock stroke...3.50, may 3.25, maybe less. And then build the valvetrain for revs. Keeping the peak torque down and making the power with revs.

If you plan on many street miles, you may want to sacrifice some power for lower noise. A more muffled intake. Hydraulic lifters with some preload. Maybe a less violent cam.

Maybe an LS7 shortblock with de-stroked crank, AFR heads, etc.

Builder

Yikes! Okay, I guess that's a couple of good reasons not to sleeve. Although, it sounds like you had moderate success with your second setup.

Was your second setup the hyd roller LS2 on pump gas that made 553 rwhp?

What compression? I am stuck with 91 octane around here.

Anything low- to mid-500 rwhp will definitely work for me. That puts fwhp at around 600, which is about the max I can expect. With the solid-roller 402 and an ARE dry-sump, would you care to take a wild guess at potential output?

The transaxle is geared to make 7,500 rpm the optimal shift point. Is that reasonable for a 402 solid roller with any sort of lifespan? The car will see a couple of track-days per month (maybe 300 miles) and an additional 300-500 street miles.

Thanks, Mikey.

Builder

Yes, an SBC 377 was the original plan, which, as you are probably aware, is a "de-stroked" 400. I imagine the same over-square geometry will work in the LS2 (or LS7 for that matter) to facilitate higher rpm and relocate the torque band. It's a G50/52 transaxle with first regeared and hardened.

The noise will be glorious! I plan on using electric cut-outs (!!!) so I can also use a descent muffler with some big weed-burners.

speedracer5532

iTrader: (8)

Builder, here is the post from my 402 https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/309920-another-dominator-402-ls2-hits-streets.html. The CR is 11.5:1 and the engine was tuned on 93 octane pump gas. It is a N/A motor and I shift it at 6700 and the rev limiter is set at 7K. I do not have any experience with a solid roller or a dry-sump.

Builder

Sweet! I read that post. Awesome power and MPG! Must be a blast. Did you keep the GM PCM?

Sure wish we had 93/94 at the pump around here. In most cities, there's usually a couple of gas stations that have much higher octane at the pump (100 or 110). I have not found any around here, so I have to snag aviation low-lead whenever I can.

Nice job Mikey. Want to take a wild guess at power for this configuration? PM if you prefer...

Forged 402 LS2
91 Octane (-2cc pistons?)
Morel/Jesel Solid Roller
Shaft Adjustable Rockers
Dry-sump Oil System (ARE)
No emissions testing
FAST 90?
GM PCM (EFILive)?

N/A setup:
N2O setup with the juice on:
N2O setup with the juice off:

Thanks,

speedracer5532

iTrader: (8)

Yes, it is the factory LS1 PCM.

jrp

iTrader: (16)

steve doesnt have anything more or less vested in selling sleeves then any other sponsor here does selling there motors. steve doesnt work for darton, he is the co-developer and did most of the R&D on the sleeves. he knows what works and what doesnt. just because alot of shops offer sleeved motors doesnt mean they know how to do them correctly or even have the proper machinery to do it. blaming a problem on a motor that was improperly sleeved on the sleeve itself is like me blaming comp for destroying my motor because i installed the cam wrong.

i wouldnt even think of buying a sleeved motor from anyone other then steve himself.

Builder

Thanks, Speed.I am aware of that issue and agree with that line of thinking. If I decide to purchase a sleeved block (which is still very possible), Steve would be the first guy I would talk to.

At the bottom of post 38, I asked if anyone on this board has purchased a sleeved block from Steve. I have a couple of months before the decision is made, but nobody has stepped forward yet to say something like, "Yes, I have a 427 from XXX Motorsports in a sleeved block that was done by Steve. It's making XXX HP and torque and I run the the snot out of it every chance I get. I purchased about two years ago and have XX,XXX miles on it without ant major issues."

But, I'm in no hurry (even though I want to be) and it's only been a couple of days. So, we'll see what surfaces. If anyone knows someone with this kind of experience, please ask them post up.

Visceral

iTrader: (1)

I've had two sleeved blocks, a dry and a wet. The first dry sleeve setup dropped two sleeves and started using coolant. The second one (Darton sleeved) is using copious amounts of oil... though I cannot remove the heads from the equation... so to be fair, I cant swear its the shortblock.

Every vendor who jumped in early to the sleeve game had issues. Despite what folks say, even Steve Dmirjian had several failures before he worked out how the process needed to go. Unfortunately a few vendors took the ride with him too. I think Steve has it worked out OK now... but a simple fact remains...

For what Ive spent in transporting the car back and forth to/from warrantee work, extra parts, etc... I could have had a C5R block in the first place and never have been worrying about when the thing will fall apart. Lots of miles could have been put on the car enjoying it, etc.

Maybe when I finally get this engine working perfectly, I'll plop it in a Ultima GTR too. I like those cars

Builder

Hey, it would be great to have another Ultima owner in the club. Check this out, if you are interested in learning more about Ultima. It's our second meeting.

Sounds like you have had some really unpleasant experiences with sleeves...even granting the benefit of the doubt to your existing setup.

With your knowledge and experience, and considering the process has been improved, would you purchase another sleeved setup?

Thanks,

JOHN LAWSON

iTrader: (3)

I have a Cartek prepared Darton wet sleve 427, that is about 2 years old. That thing will run 10.30s on the strip all day long, and I can drive it any where. Ive had no problems with it what so ever. Thank John.

jrp

iTrader: (16)

you are correct, steve went through many blocks and different gaskets in the R&D process to get where he is at. however i dont believe he used the public for R&D (ala patriot), the bad blocks werent sold and buit upon. also most vendors dont have the proper attachments (coolant hoses) for there machinery to hold the tolerance needed for proper clearances. hence why some blocks are out of round, ect.

Steve does blocks for honda's and vipers and some of them are running upwards of 1000rwhp w/o issue.

FWIW steve has done alot of repairs and fixes of blocks that have come from other sponsors.

Builder, i live 30 minutes away from steve so i get to see all the machinery, blocks, sleeves, ect. i've also learned alot from him on why you here alot of problems with sleeves done by other vendors.

But remember, a block is just a block, even if you've got a top of the line c5r block if the builder doesnt know what he's doing and clearances are all out of wack, ect. the motor will still have problems.

Builder

That's great, John. Please tell me more about your setup, if you would.

What model car is it in?
What C/R and octane are you running?
How many miles have you logged?
Heads and manifold?
a 10.3 would put your RWHP at around 650?

Thanks,

JOHN LAWSON

iTrader: (3)

Its a 2000 C5 COUPE WITH AN Rossler A4. Ls6 heads, TPIS modifed Oval intake with an Oval TB, CR is around 11 to 1 on pump gas. I proably have around 10,000 miles on this engine.

Builder

Jeremi, your logic is sound. It would not be a good business move to use real customers as the test-bed for a new sleeving technology...without their consent. I have to believe that Steve wouldn't do that.

At this point, I've read enough to warrent placing a call to Steve to get his perspective. Perhaps he has this system down now and can state a clear definition as to the maximum capabilities in an endurance-type engine.

In the same way it's true that injectors should not exceed 80 percent duty cycle, I believe the engine should be constructed with the same reserves. I am not going for a maximum-effort engine. And, I think an over-square sleeved block would have an easier time reaching 7500 rpm than a 402 stroker.

I have to mention that I have been saving my pennies and working my a$$ off to afford this car and drivetrain. I can't afford to buy the engine twice. If there's a significantly greater than normal possibility (beyond that of any system pushed to 80 percent) that this setup will break, I can't go there. That said, I am still going to give it every consideration with an open mind when I speak with Steve.

Please keep the scenarios coming...

Builder

Nice! Glad to hear you are driving it like it should be driven.

What octane?
Have you taken her for a dyno tune?
Are you using a GM PCM?

Thanks,

chuntington101

hey Builder, very nice car by the way. are you a member of gassing station on piston heads? loads of ultima guys are, but cant remember seeing you on there. anyway nice project.

have you spoke to Brammo about their twin turbo unit? not sure about cost, but the kit/engines (not sure if they would do a kit, turbo, header, inlet, e'boxes) do look good. and you would easaly see way more BHP than your after. i would suggest you talk to American Speed but i dont dout you already have;-)

have you seen mark koch's turbo car (www.markkoch.net)? i think he is amimg for similar power level as you, but he's going FI on a pretty standard (for the time being) ls1.

anyway mate, keep us posted on what you go for.

Thanks Chris.

Visceral

iTrader: (1)

Is there a shop nearby to yourself and Steve there that you would recommend doing a shortblock R&R? In the case that I have to have Steve redo my setup, I'd like to drive the car down, and then have it taken apart there.

Chris

JOHN LAWSON

iTrader: (3)

I use Shell 94 Octane. Cartek done all of the tuning on a factory PCM. 530 rwhp, 511 rwt. Its a real blast on the street. Thanks John.

Builder

Hey Chris, PM sent...

Thank you. Yes, I am on that board.Yes, I have spoken with Brammo...$50k. Correct, I don't really want 1300 horsepower in my 2200# street-legal car. The GTR will pull through 200 mph on 600 hp without breathing too hard. That's way fast. My top gear is really an overdrive gear to help with economy. Gears 1-4 are designed for the track and will get me to 180 in a hurry. BTW, the driver of that TT car backed out of the throttle at 229 with another gear to go. Kurt said it was getting a little light.

I have spoken with American Speed. They have a very nice package for the GTR. But, I prefer the LSx series to the SBC, aluminum over iron (for the GTR), and EFI over carbs. Also, their pricing is a little steep for my $$$.Yes, it's running now, but I don't think it's on the road yet. Can't wait to go for a ride in that rocket.Will do. BTW, I probably would not be this far along the Ultima path if not for the PistonHeads board. (plug) There are folks on that board that have had Ultima cars on the road for 5-6 years. If anyone reading this is interested in seeing what all of Europe and Great Britan is doing in high-performance cars, PistonHeads is the place. There's some cool stuff up there...and, quite a few LSx and SBC swaps (along with BMW, Ferrari swaps, etc.)

Regards,