2006 Z06 Dyno with LG Pro Long Tube Headers
09-29-2005, 03:33 PM
#81
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Originally Posted by Spinmonster
First of all I have 2 really fast vettes C5 is about 625rwhp (475 all motor 348)on the bottle (C6 isn't done yet) and a track only car 426 hekim/dart (9500rpm at the traps and no titanium con. rods) that is always in the nines...built them all myself.
The cobra statement was simply that they built a really strong lower end that repeatedly stands up to 700+ to the wheels modded and I think the Chevy platform (even the base C6) should do that too since the car is 20k more to buy. That isn't too unreasonable.
There is no reason to start with profanity since I was just voicing my opinion. The Z06 is a great car. The motor is awesome. It just isnt any BETTER than anything that was available yesterday. If you're leaving it stock...buy it. If you want a higher performing car, you can beat it for much less money with a Z51 and a stroker motor/suspension....at least I did.
The cobra statement was simply that they built a really strong lower end that repeatedly stands up to 700+ to the wheels modded and I think the Chevy platform (even the base C6) should do that too since the car is 20k more to buy. That isn't too unreasonable.
There is no reason to start with profanity since I was just voicing my opinion. The Z06 is a great car. The motor is awesome. It just isnt any BETTER than anything that was available yesterday. If you're leaving it stock...buy it. If you want a higher performing car, you can beat it for much less money with a Z51 and a stroker motor/suspension....at least I did.
Secondly - I'm sure your cars are very fast. They sound badass.
It just seems like you are saying "GM should have done this, or GM should have done that" when it seems they actually have built an impressive street car. Buy a Z06 and keep it stock - have a fast stock car. Buy a Z06 and mod it - be able to get big gains with few mods. If someone wanted to put an LS7 in their Camaro I don't see what's wrong with that either. Maybe they want a stealth setup in a Camaro powered by a stock GM motor that is somewhat quiet and idles nice.
We haven't seen the maximum potential out of the LS7 yet either and I'm very curious to see what kind of power people will be able to get out of them N/A.
09-29-2005, 03:35 PM
#82
Is the engine all the hype that everyone says it is? Yep. We have yet to even scratch the performance potential with this package!
GM made 575 RWHP with 70 less cubic inches with these exact same heads and a bigger cam a year and a half ago with the CTS-VRs. That was the Destroked LS7 with stock heads, bigger cam, and a stock intake manifold.
Give it time.
GM made 575 RWHP with 70 less cubic inches with these exact same heads and a bigger cam a year and a half ago with the CTS-VRs. That was the Destroked LS7 with stock heads, bigger cam, and a stock intake manifold.
Give it time.
09-29-2005, 03:36 PM
#83
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Originally Posted by Spinmonster
I AGREE.
Actually that is exactly what my point is. It seemed like everyone was saying that...
I read: wow, I gotta get these heads (like they were the best that was ever made)....and wow those are great numbers....441.....
I started with a 427 motor observation asking what was the hype over it? Somehow it became a Z06 bashing which it isnt. It was an observation that you are getting what you paid for and it will not perform any better than an aftermarket forged motor. If youre saying that it is good for a production motor...I agree 100% with you. If you're saying it is the best one out there....100% disagree and it isn't even close, not even for the price.
I was just wondering why so many threads are in awe and I haven't seen any real numbers from one.
Hey if it puts down 630 with the stock heads ported I will buy one too.
I wasnt being a wiseazz and my opinion was taken as an attack.
Why no Z06 for me...stupid answer you will think but I want the removable roof. That is just my thing. It isn't good for rigidity but its what I wanted. If I read later that the Z06 roof can be made removable with some mod...I will probably get one myself in 3 years when I'm tired of this C6. Like my C5 and C6 tho....the warranty will be violated the first week. Thats just me.
Still not seeing anything better...just the best chevy put out.
Actually that is exactly what my point is. It seemed like everyone was saying that...
I read: wow, I gotta get these heads (like they were the best that was ever made)....and wow those are great numbers....441.....
I started with a 427 motor observation asking what was the hype over it? Somehow it became a Z06 bashing which it isnt. It was an observation that you are getting what you paid for and it will not perform any better than an aftermarket forged motor. If youre saying that it is good for a production motor...I agree 100% with you. If you're saying it is the best one out there....100% disagree and it isn't even close, not even for the price.
I was just wondering why so many threads are in awe and I haven't seen any real numbers from one.
Hey if it puts down 630 with the stock heads ported I will buy one too.
I wasnt being a wiseazz and my opinion was taken as an attack.
Why no Z06 for me...stupid answer you will think but I want the removable roof. That is just my thing. It isn't good for rigidity but its what I wanted. If I read later that the Z06 roof can be made removable with some mod...I will probably get one myself in 3 years when I'm tired of this C6. Like my C5 and C6 tho....the warranty will be violated the first week. Thats just me.
Still not seeing anything better...just the best chevy put out.
cool....we are in agreement then...i don't think anyone here praising the ls7/z06 means they think it is better than a quality shop built stroker...
i for one don't see anything that great in the ls7 shortblock compared to a shop built 427....other than the oiling system...id rather have a fully forged bottom end for the same cash...
i think the heads might have potential depending on the price and adaptability to the older LSX motors...
i wanna see the LS7 heads on a 402/408/422/427/etc...
09-29-2005, 03:42 PM
#84
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If you're leaving it stock...buy it. If you want a higher performing car, you can beat it for much less money with a Z51 and a stroker motor/suspension....
So basically this is what the last four pages of BS has been about.
Tell me something, is this something you just figured out? 'Cause a lot of people on here are already very much aware of this fact...
Jon
So basically this is what the last four pages of BS has been about.
Tell me something, is this something you just figured out? 'Cause a lot of people on here are already very much aware of this fact...
Jon
09-29-2005, 03:52 PM
#85
Originally Posted by Louis
Is the engine all the hype that everyone says it is? Yep. We have yet to even scratch the performance potential with this package!
GM made 575 RWHP with 70 less cubic inches with these exact same heads and a bigger cam a year and a half ago with the CTS-VRs. That was the Destroked LS7 with stock heads, bigger cam, and a stock intake manifold.
Give it time.
GM made 575 RWHP with 70 less cubic inches with these exact same heads and a bigger cam a year and a half ago with the CTS-VRs. That was the Destroked LS7 with stock heads, bigger cam, and a stock intake manifold.
Give it time.
I never knew anything like that about the platform and I'm glad there is a basis for the hype. All anyone had to do was show its verified performance. Big bore motors with small strokes typically are used in high rpm applications like oval track. The heads can breath up top and the stroke was apparently for street TQ and to bring back the 427 vette for marketing purposes.
This was the stock LS7 intake?
09-29-2005, 04:03 PM
#86
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what was your question?
you wanted proof about the performance of the ls7 head?
im pretty sure i said a cam, exhaust, tuned ls7 should break 600rw pages ago??? wtf
you wanted proof about the performance of the ls7 head?
im pretty sure i said a cam, exhaust, tuned ls7 should break 600rw pages ago??? wtf
09-29-2005, 04:43 PM
#87
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
Yes, the CTS program made 575 (or more) hp in a 35x inch motor a destroked crank, and the stock LS7 manifold.
I drive a car making 503 RWHP in a 347 that will rev to 7500 with a hyd. roller. The difference between it and a big inch motor is noticeable. In the Z06 Here is a stock motor that will rev to 7100 without aftermarket trick parts (as they are already in there). We had a B/SM motor in my shop that would go 9200 and it didn't have Ti rods whats the point. Anyway, put a cam and a set of headers on a car with heads that flow 370 right there, and you're looking at a motor that will make crazy power.
I'll use the car I drive as a simple example. If you extrapolate what a "max-effort" car makes just based on airflow alone, and the extrapolate that to the LS7 you're looking at a car that should make ~580 RWHP. with a set of headers and a cam change.
GM lightened up reciprocating mass on a production engine in a way that even the exotics are barely doing. If you can't give them credit on what a leap forward something like this is from a company like GM you have quite simply missed it.
You can do whatever you want provided you have cash. In this case GM is doing it all for you and doing it much cheaper than you or I could.
If you need me to dig up the GM press release which says Forged Pistons I can. Maybe the press dept. is wrong, but thats wha they released to the press, the magazines, etc...
As for the firms you mentioned regarding emissions requirements. Take those cars to California and put them on a tailpipe test. I would be willing to bet you they won't pass. You can pass many states OBDII test with no cats and o2 sims, and a car that is nowhere near truly EPA compliant.
The new Z06 is a LEV (Low emission Vehicle), it comes with a warranty, etc... I know folks who were involved in some of the R&D on the engine. Basically it is a light years ahead of anything from the aftermarket. I'll give you one example. Many of the components int the motor are more than capable of sustaning 8500 RPM. Thats how much leeway GM gave us....
If you want to believe the stroker packages from these other shops is on the same level as this engine, by all means, go right ahead. The engineering reality is it isn't.
What are the aftermarket guys doing, they are copying GM's head. There is nothing wrong with ET making a knockoff head. I have yet to see any hard numbers on it though. I'm sure it will make decent numbers, you'll have to come up with an itake though. A Hogan sheetmetal is $3K, a Kinsler and a HSV 8Tb are in the same neighborhood.
So, do me a favor. Calculate up what it would cost to build a C5R block, and your choice of C5 heads or ET heads, now fab up a manifold. Port the heads, put in Ti valves, and a Ti rods along with forged pistons. Throw a dry sump system in there while you are at it. Now, get back to me with the cost.
Here is a hint go look at Colonel's car as his was almost exactly this setup. I think conservatively he had about $60K in getting it setup including R&D time.
What I'm trying to point out is you are taking a non-emission compliant. Non-warratied "package" car and trying to compare it to a true production car.
When the first "package" Z06's come out try comparing that to the 427 and 441's you are citing. You'll see it won't add up.
I drive a car making 503 RWHP in a 347 that will rev to 7500 with a hyd. roller. The difference between it and a big inch motor is noticeable. In the Z06 Here is a stock motor that will rev to 7100 without aftermarket trick parts (as they are already in there). We had a B/SM motor in my shop that would go 9200 and it didn't have Ti rods whats the point. Anyway, put a cam and a set of headers on a car with heads that flow 370 right there, and you're looking at a motor that will make crazy power.
I'll use the car I drive as a simple example. If you extrapolate what a "max-effort" car makes just based on airflow alone, and the extrapolate that to the LS7 you're looking at a car that should make ~580 RWHP. with a set of headers and a cam change.
GM lightened up reciprocating mass on a production engine in a way that even the exotics are barely doing. If you can't give them credit on what a leap forward something like this is from a company like GM you have quite simply missed it.
You can do whatever you want provided you have cash. In this case GM is doing it all for you and doing it much cheaper than you or I could.
If you need me to dig up the GM press release which says Forged Pistons I can. Maybe the press dept. is wrong, but thats wha they released to the press, the magazines, etc...
As for the firms you mentioned regarding emissions requirements. Take those cars to California and put them on a tailpipe test. I would be willing to bet you they won't pass. You can pass many states OBDII test with no cats and o2 sims, and a car that is nowhere near truly EPA compliant.
The new Z06 is a LEV (Low emission Vehicle), it comes with a warranty, etc... I know folks who were involved in some of the R&D on the engine. Basically it is a light years ahead of anything from the aftermarket. I'll give you one example. Many of the components int the motor are more than capable of sustaning 8500 RPM. Thats how much leeway GM gave us....
If you want to believe the stroker packages from these other shops is on the same level as this engine, by all means, go right ahead. The engineering reality is it isn't.
What are the aftermarket guys doing, they are copying GM's head. There is nothing wrong with ET making a knockoff head. I have yet to see any hard numbers on it though. I'm sure it will make decent numbers, you'll have to come up with an itake though. A Hogan sheetmetal is $3K, a Kinsler and a HSV 8Tb are in the same neighborhood.
So, do me a favor. Calculate up what it would cost to build a C5R block, and your choice of C5 heads or ET heads, now fab up a manifold. Port the heads, put in Ti valves, and a Ti rods along with forged pistons. Throw a dry sump system in there while you are at it. Now, get back to me with the cost.
Here is a hint go look at Colonel's car as his was almost exactly this setup. I think conservatively he had about $60K in getting it setup including R&D time.
What I'm trying to point out is you are taking a non-emission compliant. Non-warratied "package" car and trying to compare it to a true production car.
When the first "package" Z06's come out try comparing that to the 427 and 441's you are citing. You'll see it won't add up.
09-29-2005, 05:24 PM
#89
I agree with your post.
except:
As far as beating the crate motor for 12.5K....yes you can and the quality is better. The beauty of the LS7 will be its very cheap block compared to the C5r block or even a darton resleeve. Buying the same crank, rods, and better pistons will be as easy. I'm betting less than 1500 for this block. We will see. A darton releev of a Ls2 is available at 2600 so the silly 6500 c5r block isnt in the works.
The sheetmetal intake is not an issue as for the third time, the ET performance heads come available in both LS7 and LS1,2,6 intake port configurations without the silly rocker arm issue.
I do appreciate the quality and cost effectiveness of the entire package if that is what you are getting at. I asked what all the hype was about and I got everything from a head/intake manifold lecture to cost effective performance with a tiny cam. It wasn't what I asked and I asked what all the hype was for on a motor that hasn't shown anything yet. If you think a motor can't be built that matches or exceeds the performance of the crate LS7 for LESS than 12,5k, we disagree on that.
"I'll use the car I drive as a simple example. If you extrapolate what a "max-effort" car makes just based on airflow alone, and the extrapolate that to the LS7 you're looking at a car that should make ~580 RWHP. with a set of headers and a cam change." We saw the 480 with the headers now lets see the 100hp cam swap.
except:
As far as beating the crate motor for 12.5K....yes you can and the quality is better. The beauty of the LS7 will be its very cheap block compared to the C5r block or even a darton resleeve. Buying the same crank, rods, and better pistons will be as easy. I'm betting less than 1500 for this block. We will see. A darton releev of a Ls2 is available at 2600 so the silly 6500 c5r block isnt in the works.
The sheetmetal intake is not an issue as for the third time, the ET performance heads come available in both LS7 and LS1,2,6 intake port configurations without the silly rocker arm issue.
I do appreciate the quality and cost effectiveness of the entire package if that is what you are getting at. I asked what all the hype was about and I got everything from a head/intake manifold lecture to cost effective performance with a tiny cam. It wasn't what I asked and I asked what all the hype was for on a motor that hasn't shown anything yet. If you think a motor can't be built that matches or exceeds the performance of the crate LS7 for LESS than 12,5k, we disagree on that.
"I'll use the car I drive as a simple example. If you extrapolate what a "max-effort" car makes just based on airflow alone, and the extrapolate that to the LS7 you're looking at a car that should make ~580 RWHP. with a set of headers and a cam change." We saw the 480 with the headers now lets see the 100hp cam swap.
09-29-2005, 06:53 PM
#93
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I said the same thing almost 6 months ago and got told that I was crazy.
The proof was pretty easy, since you had 550rwhp 402 strokers for crying out loud with over 500rwtq, great driveability, hydrualic cams, with 340CFM ported LS6 heads choked down to under 300CFM with the FAST 90 intake attached.
Now you have a purpose built 427 motor, titanium this, forged that, large port heads whihc have offset rocker just so the intake port can be wide enough, a 2.20" intake valve and what, over 365CFM of flow with 300CFM at a fairly low lift point. The intake manifold desingned for the heads,
my guess is yes 600rwhp will be a reaility with out changing the heads. This with a hydraulic cam. More will be had with a solid cam.
And I am also willing to bet some money that someone can get 400CFM out of these heads with increases at all lift points over .200". I did not say that welding material was out of the question.
The proof was pretty easy, since you had 550rwhp 402 strokers for crying out loud with over 500rwtq, great driveability, hydrualic cams, with 340CFM ported LS6 heads choked down to under 300CFM with the FAST 90 intake attached.
Now you have a purpose built 427 motor, titanium this, forged that, large port heads whihc have offset rocker just so the intake port can be wide enough, a 2.20" intake valve and what, over 365CFM of flow with 300CFM at a fairly low lift point. The intake manifold desingned for the heads,
my guess is yes 600rwhp will be a reaility with out changing the heads. This with a hydraulic cam. More will be had with a solid cam.
And I am also willing to bet some money that someone can get 400CFM out of these heads with increases at all lift points over .200". I did not say that welding material was out of the question.
09-29-2005, 08:32 PM
#96
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The ZO6/LS7 elevates GM to worldclass status. Some people are missing this point. The engine is part of the overall package that will give prancing horses (Ferrari), turtles (Porsche) and all the snakes (Cobra, Viper etc.) fits on the streets and the tracks. This engine is incredible for a stock engine and to compare a stock engine to a built aftermarket shop engine is a compliment in itself. Just take it for what its worth ($70,000) that this is the best engine put in the best platform by the best in the world. And yes I would buy one at $12.5k to put in my Monza 2+2 just so I can say that I have the best of the best.
bill
bill
09-29-2005, 08:58 PM
#97
Originally Posted by Nine Ball
Spinmonster, I think ALL of us get your point. Please give it a rest now. You are preaching to the choir here. Just appreciate this car for what it is, not what you wish to compare it to.
Tony
Tony
Spin. It is OK to have an opinion and to state it. It is another thing to argue it to a point where we get sick of hearing it.
This is a great piece of Motor Engineering. Tuner motors are great, but this motor has a lot of potential, and the parts are watched closely for Reverse-Engineering it into the other LSX platforms. The Block is of main interest to me. The Heads/ Intake might be the best thing for us in a long time.
A sheet metal intake is fine for High HP output, but this intake is designed for Average power and power under the curve. Only the FAST has gone into making a truelly better intake in this aspect.
You are saying that it's not all that impressive. What #'s would impress you? I'm not be an *** in this point, I'm truelly curious?
I believe I saw a Cartek 427 making about (725 Flywheel)and was a costly build up and made for durability. That may be the best engine to compair it to.
09-29-2005, 09:05 PM
#98
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I believe I saw a Cartek 427 making about (725 Flywheel)and was a costly build up and made for durability. That may be the best engine to compair it to.
bill
09-29-2005, 09:19 PM
#99
Guys, we all know and fully understand that it is easy to exceed these hp/tq numbers for less money. Thats not the point of this thread. Please just drop the coulda-woulda-shoulda arguments and be thankful that we have dedicated sponsors and Z06 buyers that are willing to test out these new cars and share their results with us.
Like I said, appreciate the car for what it is, and quit trying to compare it to everything else.
Like I said, appreciate the car for what it is, and quit trying to compare it to everything else.
