NO-OPTION-2002

iTrader: (2)

I don't seen either block ending up in many of cars with those usages.
... are going to be the MAJORITY of the customers buying EITHER block.

You may be the exception, Quicken.

trumperZ06

You asked where the 127 lbs. came from...

and we provided you an ANSWER, Quicken !!!

Chevy's lightest big block listed in the 2006 GM High Performance book weighs 258 lbs. P/N25534362, the heaviest block listed, P/N 24502502 weighs 296 lbs.

Looks like the new LSX iron block has a nice weight reduction (225 lbs.)... but it still is 127 lbs. heavier !!!

Simple fact, not "belaboring points" !

Weight is a major consideration in all types of racing, especially weight taken off the front end of a front engine/rear wheel drive vechicle.

We all agree... if maxinium hp. is the goal, the iron block is stronger. It's cheaper too!

The alumium block does offer a significant weight advantage... and for some applications... will be the block of choice !



Cya @ the Track,

Trumper

Quickin

Thats cool, I just think 127 pounds or the 80 pound difference between a complete LSX engine (454ci) and a factory LS7 engine is just no big deal at all, compared to the benifits.




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Quickin

Thats agreeable, since the most power possible is pretty much everyones goal in ALMOST every type of racing. I would think an additional reliable 100 hp would be more desirable than NOT being able to have that extra reliable 100 hp, and be 127 pounds lighter.
100 pounds = .10 in the 1/4 mile (basic rule)

What will 100 extra hp do for ya while be 127 pounds heavier?????


.

trumperZ06

Hhmmmm... can you get an extra 100 hp. (NA) using GM's LSX iron block?

The extra strengh in the iron block lends itself to supercharging or turbocharging. I don't know how much additional power (with a NA engine)you can get from GM's LSX vs. Warhawk, with the same cubic inches?

Maybe Merlin can chime in ?

On road courses, normally aspirated engines are the prefered choice. Unless you have factory support (ie. Audi, Porsche,etc), it's hard to develop a turbo-charged engine that will stand up to the punishment.

There are so many variables in track (road course) racing that it's hard to respond with a simple answer. Races range from sprints ~ 45 minutes or less, up to enduro's lasting 24 hours.

Engine choice depends on:

1. Rules... hp/weight being just one

2. length of race... is it a sprint or an enduro

3. Budget... does the engine have to survive an entire season... or like NA$CAR, just 1 race.

We also look for reliability as a major goal... to finish first you 1st have to finish ! Some races can be up to 24 hours.

Weight is an enemy to...

1. Tires.... wear & traction
2. Brakes... wear & traction
3. Suspension... shocks,springs, etc. have to work harder... more likely to fail
4. drive train... additional wear & tear on:
A. tranny
B. rear end
C. wheel bearings
D. steering
E. etc
5. fuel mileage ie. more pit stops

I'm sure others can add/expand on this list...

Someone has already pointed out that these blocks are not designed for the average guy who's interest is drag-racing from stoplight to stoplight.



Cya @ the Track,

Trumper

Quickin

Thats some cool info. I guess I should have just said that 127 pounds is meaningless to me since all I'm interested in is roll races in a straight line. I'll even venture to guess it'll help being a bit heavier up front, aerodynamics-wise anyway.

383ss

iTrader: (14)

thank you for your verification. the 98lb spec was was pulled from this thread

https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...7&page=3&pp=20

post # 50 . just so you guys don't think I'm pulling numbers out of my a$$


I'm not sure the 227lb LSX weight even includes main caps either.

Sean Collins

Thanx for saying this Cary.

I think the bigger issue is while you can build a 4.5 inch stroke engine there are sevral crankshaft design issues that will pound you on the head.

First harmonics. a 2.6 inch main journal with a 4.5 inch stroke does not leave alot of journal to counter wieght overlap. This will result in a crank that will ring like a bell. If you wanted to run a crank with this much stroke you would really need to step up to a 2.850 or 3inc main journal to have good harmonic behavoir from what i have read on crankshaft design. the other issue is crankshaft flex. Read above there really isnt enough counter wieght support for a long arm to run reliably over say 6000rpm for long term usage.

while the LSx block does offer more bore the 4.40 bore centers these engines are built on will only leave .150 bewtween the cylinder walls. this is going to relagate this engine to moderate cylinder pressue as holding the gasket in between the bores will be near impossiable. Expericne speaks on this one. even at that with moderate cylinder pressures i have seen failures.

the World block offers some serious design improvements mostly in main bearing support and cap intergrity. while i think the LSx is going to be good bang for the $$$ i think the Merlin block is designed off things learned from there other large bore small blocks likes the Motown etc.

there are alot of things to consider. I personally think the World block from what i have had a chance to see since i have asked for information adress's sevral of what i feel are design flaws in the GM design. One of those designs flaws is the location of the bay to bay breathing holes. I think Gm is claiming more power then the block is actually capable of. and from the cross sections i have seen of the block there certianly is not enough iron between the liners where they meet up like i would see in any opther high output race block.

I feel there are design issues that have not been adressed on GM's end. what the actual power level it can hold up to is yet to be seen. the same goes for the world block but i have noticed that WP is not claiming 2000hp. It takes one hell of a block to hold that power level. I am not truly convinced on a 2.6 inch main journal that we are going to see cranks living at that power level at least not for long anyways.

anyways I am done ranting.

Buy what you can afford that best fits your needs.

Chicago Crew UnderBoss

iTrader: (1)

Isn't one huge difference that the GM iron LSX block can easily be taken out to an overbore of 4.25 with plenty of meat left over and I even read 4.30 bore should not be a problem, where the WARHAWK alum block can only be taken out to 4.125 overbore (like a C5R block)?


I have my sights on a 482 cid perfectly square LSX GM motor with 4.25 bore and 4.25 stroke with some killer L92 affordable heads, nice street/strip cam, 11:25 compression, making an easy 650 to the wheels N/A!!! If only it was a year later!

Quickin

That does sound quite sweet


.

Louis

iTrader: (7)

You guys miss the point, a lot.

These blocks are not all going to get MAX, Boosted HP, bored and stroked to the MAX. The shortdeck has its advantages in small cube builds, such as 310ci, 335ci, 358ci (Ala, NASCAR) ect. A short deck will out accelerate the same cube, tall deck.

The stock blocks have their limitations for race use. These fill the voids.

The weight savings is indeed a very big deal. 100#s on the nose is a LOT. I squak at 10#s. In Road Racing, you have to stop it, turn it, and accelerate it. Many laps in a row. Back in Trans Am days, we had a CNC program for lightening GM Race blocks that cost 4k PER BLOCK. MACHINE WORK that cost 4k to take a few pounds off. Ill gladly pay 5-8k for a light weight, strong block. 2-4k is very cost effective.

So, pick your goals, find the block that fits them, and do it. Dont speculate on the internet, or bench race on something that has never been on the market. You guys kill me sometimes.


Louis

dhdenney

iTrader: (53)

This has turned into a big pissing contest. Buy whichever block suits you and your budget.

TurboGibbs

iTrader: (6)

I know that the World block came before the LSX but damn, don't you think that one or the other(GMPP) would have made sure that the new head bolt design had the same pattern!?!? I can't help but compare this to Ford engineering in the 60's and their 6+ engine combos and limited interchangability. That is why the sbc & bbc did so well. Same distributor, flywheels, and bellhousing patters for 30 years. Hell Toyota even designed their nascar engine to accept a chevy bolt pattern.

Both blocks are great designs and products but my prediction is one (LSX or Warhawk) will die eventually because of the head bolt revision being different.

MerlinPro

MTI,
Just like to correct a misconception: "...where the WARHAWK alum block can only be taken out to 4.125 overbore (like a C5R block)?" Not so: Cary and Eric have built ours to 4.185 and made 850 N/A. We are "only" going to 4.125 in our preliminary builds. We will have 454 and 481 in the tall deck. Later, we will evolve into more aggressive building and testing I'm told.

Quicken and 383
Louis sums it up best: "So, pick your goals, find the block that fits them, and do it. Dont speculate on the internet, or bench race on something that has never been on the market."
We are just hoping to join all the other quality mfgrs. who make LS parts and offer what we feel are desirable improvements or alternatives to the OE design. We can't be all things to all people. Some say we'll charge too much for their taste or needs (we haven't sold a thing yet!) others feel we're a bargain for a quality piece with solid improvements.
We respect our detractors and are grateful to our supporters.
We would just prefer that some would say "your stuff doesn't meet my needs" rather than "you guys dropped the ball, it's a piece of crap". That does a disservice to two guys who have over 60 years experience between them, who have and do race, build and design engines, and are expert tooling, casting and CAD engineers, machinists and very savvy businessmen in our field. I'm very lucky to work with them.
Valid discussion of design alternatives is always welcomed. Positive criticism is always respected.
In the LS field, you have to swim 100 mph just to stay where you were yesterday. We're trying to be one of the fastest swimmers with our best rivals. You guys have a great marketplace to pick your favorites.

MerlinPro

Turbo,
The General intentionally altered our bolt pattern. I'm told it's a matter of mm's and the heads will accomodate either block without much effort.
Niether block will "go away".

MerlinPro

Sean Collins makes some very valid points in post #68.
We can't say our block lives at xxxxHP because we and no one else has built and tested other than E/T. We can say our block lives at 850 which is what they achieved in preliminary testing. It's up to you guys to find our blocks limits if that's your main criteria. We do not have a test-to-destruction program. These are brand-new parts.
FWIW, Billy Laskowski has run our Man O'War Windsor (iron) to 2800HP and gotten a 10.5" tire mph record (188). Built by MME in Delaware, it eats 42psi of boost. The cam broke on the motors fourth pass and took everything else with it but the block. The point?
The same two guys designed Man O'War and Warhawk. We think they know how to make blocks handle big power.

Sean Collins

Its ok I have one of your Billet Capped Motowns in the 427ci Twin Turbo SBC small block warroir 92 camaro. Not up and running yet but I have used them before in other big hp applications and never been disapointed.

LSX-Racer

I like the head bolt location on the GMPP block. Right at the deck surface. Not too thrilled with pulling head bolts at the cam tunnel like the Merlin.

383ss

iTrader: (14)

1st time I've heard that. very good to know.

dhdenney

iTrader: (53)

Is it safe to say a machine shop could alter either head for either block?