LS2 is burning lots of oil. Any ideas?
05-30-2007, 08:51 AM
#1
LS2 is burning lots of oil. Any ideas? I bought a crate LS2 402 from SLP about a year ago. I also bought new AFR 225 heads at the same time. Form day one, this thing has burned tons of oil. When I say tons, I mean that I can go thru a quart of oil in like 10 WOT 1/4 mile passes. It's not nearly as bad while driving around daily under normal conditions.
PCV system is as follows. small breather on drivers side rear valve cover. big breather on fill oil fill neck. vacuum line from the nipple on the valley cover to the nipple on the passenger side valve cover. All the nipples on the intake and throttle body are plugged. When I had it in the stock configuration, I was getting oil in the intake. The breathers get damp with oil but they dont spray all over and make a mess like others that I have seen.
When pull my plugs, the threads are alwys wet with oil.
Is there a way to tell if the oil is coming from the valve guides w/o pulling the heads? Is there an additive that I can put in that will help if it is going by the rings? Any suggestions?
PCV system is as follows. small breather on drivers side rear valve cover. big breather on fill oil fill neck. vacuum line from the nipple on the valley cover to the nipple on the passenger side valve cover. All the nipples on the intake and throttle body are plugged. When I had it in the stock configuration, I was getting oil in the intake. The breathers get damp with oil but they dont spray all over and make a mess like others that I have seen.
When pull my plugs, the threads are alwys wet with oil.
Is there a way to tell if the oil is coming from the valve guides w/o pulling the heads? Is there an additive that I can put in that will help if it is going by the rings? Any suggestions?
05-30-2007, 11:59 AM
#3
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Originally Posted by 98Z28CobraKiller
I bought a crate LS2 402 from SLP about a year ago. I also bought new AFR 225 heads at the same time. Form day one, this thing has burned tons of oil. When I say tons, I mean that I can go thru a quart of oil in like 10 WOT 1/4 mile passes. It's not nearly as bad while driving around daily under normal conditions.
PCV system is as follows. small breather on drivers side rear valve cover. big breather on fill oil fill neck. vacuum line from the nipple on the valley cover to the nipple on the passenger side valve cover. All the nipples on the intake and throttle body are plugged. When I had it in the stock configuration, I was getting oil in the intake. The breathers get damp with oil but they dont spray all over and make a mess like others that I have seen.
When pull my plugs, the threads are alwys wet with oil.
Is there a way to tell if the oil is coming from the valve guides w/o pulling the heads? Is there an additive that I can put in that will help if it is going by the rings? Any suggestions?
PCV system is as follows. small breather on drivers side rear valve cover. big breather on fill oil fill neck. vacuum line from the nipple on the valley cover to the nipple on the passenger side valve cover. All the nipples on the intake and throttle body are plugged. When I had it in the stock configuration, I was getting oil in the intake. The breathers get damp with oil but they dont spray all over and make a mess like others that I have seen.
When pull my plugs, the threads are alwys wet with oil.
Is there a way to tell if the oil is coming from the valve guides w/o pulling the heads? Is there an additive that I can put in that will help if it is going by the rings? Any suggestions?
The way I tested for Valve guides is take the car up to 50 mph, down shift into a lower gear, take you foot off the gas pedal, and let the car coast for a while. Then press the gas pedal and look at the rear of the car or have somebody follow you, if there is a cloud of smoke, more than likely it is the valve guides. I have not tried this with a car with CATS. Have you done a compression test? I would also do that test and inject a little oil into the cylinders to see if the compression goes up – if so could be bad rings.
Just my two cents.
Thanks
Bill
05-30-2007, 01:40 PM
#5
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We posted this when the subject came up before. This will explain what is most likely happening with the engine. We had some issues with our short blocks and did a lot of research to find out what was happening.
Today’s Oil and What You Need to Know
Motor oil has had several significant changes in the last ten years and more importantly in 2004 a decision was made to reduce the sulfur and the zinc-phosphorus compounds (ZDDP). The ZDDP is used as the primary anti-wear agent for internal engine components. Beginning with the 2004 model of new vehicles, the Federal Government has asked auto manufacturers to warranty catalytic converters for 120,000-miles.
Most catalytic converters eventually fail from harmful gases emitted through the exhaust, and two of these are the phosphorous and sulfur which were a prevalent make-up of our older motor oils. All engines will consume some oil through the exhaust! While in most cases this is only a very small amount, the automakers decided it was time to change the chemistry of motor oil rather than adding to the cost of catalytic converters.
This change in engine oil has had a significant impact on the performance engine world, specifically engines with forged pistons and/or flat tappet camshafts. The lack of the zinc-phosphorus compounds has been a primary cause of premature failure in flat tappet camshafts and lifters. Current oils for gasoline engines have the ZDDP compounds reduced by 20% or more. We have seen an overwhelming increase in piston scuff and premature ring wear. We have torn down performance engines with less than 1500-miles and seen piston scuff and ring wear that looked as if the engine had 100,000-miles! All caused from super low viscosity oils with poor anti-wear characteristics and a lack of following proper break-in procedures.
If you have purchased a custom built short block with forged pistons and a performance ring package it is imperative that you choose engine oil with a significant amount of ZDDP. Forged pistons with moly rings or HD steel rings and engines with flat tappet camshafts we suggest an engine oil with a minimum ZDDP content of the following;
Approximate Percentage by Weight
Zinc – 0.120
Phosphorus – 0.115
Suggested Oils;
Shell Rotella-T 15W40 API Specification CI-4 Plus
Valvoline NSL Racing Oil 10W30 (Conventional Motor Oil, excellent for break-in!)
Pennzoil 25W50 Racing Motor Oil
Today’s Oil and What You Need to Know
Motor oil has had several significant changes in the last ten years and more importantly in 2004 a decision was made to reduce the sulfur and the zinc-phosphorus compounds (ZDDP). The ZDDP is used as the primary anti-wear agent for internal engine components. Beginning with the 2004 model of new vehicles, the Federal Government has asked auto manufacturers to warranty catalytic converters for 120,000-miles.
Most catalytic converters eventually fail from harmful gases emitted through the exhaust, and two of these are the phosphorous and sulfur which were a prevalent make-up of our older motor oils. All engines will consume some oil through the exhaust! While in most cases this is only a very small amount, the automakers decided it was time to change the chemistry of motor oil rather than adding to the cost of catalytic converters.
This change in engine oil has had a significant impact on the performance engine world, specifically engines with forged pistons and/or flat tappet camshafts. The lack of the zinc-phosphorus compounds has been a primary cause of premature failure in flat tappet camshafts and lifters. Current oils for gasoline engines have the ZDDP compounds reduced by 20% or more. We have seen an overwhelming increase in piston scuff and premature ring wear. We have torn down performance engines with less than 1500-miles and seen piston scuff and ring wear that looked as if the engine had 100,000-miles! All caused from super low viscosity oils with poor anti-wear characteristics and a lack of following proper break-in procedures.
If you have purchased a custom built short block with forged pistons and a performance ring package it is imperative that you choose engine oil with a significant amount of ZDDP. Forged pistons with moly rings or HD steel rings and engines with flat tappet camshafts we suggest an engine oil with a minimum ZDDP content of the following;
Approximate Percentage by Weight
Zinc – 0.120
Phosphorus – 0.115
Suggested Oils;
Shell Rotella-T 15W40 API Specification CI-4 Plus
Valvoline NSL Racing Oil 10W30 (Conventional Motor Oil, excellent for break-in!)
Pennzoil 25W50 Racing Motor Oil
05-30-2007, 05:51 PM
#6
Originally Posted by Bill's 02 Z-28 SS
Hi 98Z28CobraKiller
The way I tested for Valve guides is take the car up to 50 mph, down shift into a lower gear, take you foot off the gas pedal, and let the car coast for a while. Then press the gas pedal and look at the rear of the car or have somebody follow you, if there is a cloud of smoke, more than likely it is the valve guides. I have not tried this with a car with CATS. Have you done a compression test? I would also do that test and inject a little oil into the cylinders to see if the compression goes up – if so could be bad rings.
Just my two cents.
Thanks
Bill
The way I tested for Valve guides is take the car up to 50 mph, down shift into a lower gear, take you foot off the gas pedal, and let the car coast for a while. Then press the gas pedal and look at the rear of the car or have somebody follow you, if there is a cloud of smoke, more than likely it is the valve guides. I have not tried this with a car with CATS. Have you done a compression test? I would also do that test and inject a little oil into the cylinders to see if the compression goes up – if so could be bad rings.
Just my two cents.
Thanks
Bill
I do not have cats and run a true dual 3" exhaust with crossover dumped right before the rear.
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05-30-2007, 07:11 PM
#8
I was told if you use stock rockerarms w/AFR heads it will wear out the valve guids.Is this true,I don't know. Why would you use 5-w30 oil in a pefrormance motor? I ran 20-50 for a long time and it never burned oil. w/10-30 i burned 1/2 to 3/4 qt every 3,000mi.
05-30-2007, 08:14 PM
#9
TECH Resident
I have a LS6 forged motor, the leak down numbers are great, but it smokes like a house on fire when you let off of the gas at 6000. I put new valve guide seals on, no help, tried several PCV changes and no PCV, it's better at WOT, now smokes at idle and mid. Have always used Valvoline racing oil. Bottom line, the oil rings are not working. LS1 has low tension rings. They are way too low for me, they don't work.
05-31-2007, 11:06 AM
#11
Originally Posted by mike c.
I was told if you use stock rockerarms w/AFR heads it will wear out the valve guids.Is this true,I don't know. Why would you use 5-w30 oil in a pefrormance motor? I ran 20-50 for a long time and it never burned oil. w/10-30 i burned 1/2 to 3/4 qt every 3,000mi.
I just thought that 5-30 or 10-30 is what you are supposed to use. As far as the stock rockers+AFR heads, I will find out from Mamo today.
05-31-2007, 11:08 AM
#12
Originally Posted by racecar
I have a LS6 forged motor, the leak down numbers are great, but it smokes like a house on fire when you let off of the gas at 6000. I put new valve guide seals on, no help, tried several PCV changes and no PCV, it's better at WOT, now smokes at idle and mid. Have always used Valvoline racing oil. Bottom line, the oil rings are not working. LS1 has low tension rings. They are way too low for me, they don't work.
05-31-2007, 11:46 AM
#13
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Originally Posted by 98Z28CobraKiller
Brian, Great info!!!!! Makes perfect sense. So, by switching to one of those oils, should I see my oil consumption go down, or is it too late for me? I run Mobil1 5-30.
Brian
05-31-2007, 12:00 PM
#14
Not trying to pass the buck but Carlos doesn't sound like he is having valve guide oiling issues based on his symptoms. It would burn more oil driving around at high vacuum than it would at WOT which is usually more indicative of ring sealing issues. Plus, he had issues with the oil consumption right away with perfectly tight valve guides. It takes a fair amount of time to wear the guides enough to consume the type of oil he is claiming.
Concerning the rockers, you can use our heads with stock rockers or aftermarket....if using aftermarket we like the Crane gold or the new Yella Terra Ultra Lite's.
I would be looking more closely at the shortblock....seems to me its not sealing up properly. A leakdown would be the first thing I would take the time to do, but you could still have an OK leak down and still have oiling issues. The LS1's have a lot les oil tension than the Gen I and Gen II engines and are very finicky about sealing up. The wrong hone can wreak havoc on oil consumption.
Good luck....keep us posted!
Try the leakdown first....its good info to have
Tony
Concerning the rockers, you can use our heads with stock rockers or aftermarket....if using aftermarket we like the Crane gold or the new Yella Terra Ultra Lite's.
I would be looking more closely at the shortblock....seems to me its not sealing up properly. A leakdown would be the first thing I would take the time to do, but you could still have an OK leak down and still have oiling issues. The LS1's have a lot les oil tension than the Gen I and Gen II engines and are very finicky about sealing up. The wrong hone can wreak havoc on oil consumption.
Good luck....keep us posted!
Try the leakdown first....its good info to have
Tony
05-31-2007, 12:47 PM
#15
I'd look into the shortblock and heads
1) Do a leakdown first and foremost.
2) Id yank the heads and have the valve guides/seals etc checked out. I had a problem with my new AFR's a few years ago that machine shop fixed and has been fine since
1) Do a leakdown first and foremost.
2) Id yank the heads and have the valve guides/seals etc checked out. I had a problem with my new AFR's a few years ago that machine shop fixed and has been fine since
06-03-2007, 01:02 AM
#16
TECH Resident
I have been told by ring manufacturers that low tension rings are the standard with LS1 motors. The standard LS1 ring thickness of 1.5-1.5-3mm is the first clue. Small blocks were 1/16-1/16-3/16. I hope that you are right about the seals. I replaced mine, it didn't help. My leak down numbers are great, my oil rings are just not working.
06-12-2007, 06:34 PM
#17
I finally got around to doing a leakdown test last night. I did the entire drivers side and all were well below 10%. Closer to 5% actually. I put the drivers side back together and moved to the passenger side. As soon as I removed the rockers I noticed that the top of the valve (first one on passenger side) showed some pitting. After closer inspection, I noticed that the top of the valve was worn down abit as well compared to the rest of the valves. I stopped right there and remembered the recall on the AFR 225's that was posted in November. I sent Tony Mamo an e-mail (this morning) and got a reply (this afternoon) stating that it looked like that was indeed the case. He hooked me up with one of his sales guys (Jeremy) and they provided me with an RMA and a UPS Acct# to ship it back on. They also provide compensation for labor and fluids and provide the new headgaskets. This is the kind of support that everyone should provide but almost no one does. BIG PROPS TO TONY AND CREW @ AFR!!!!! Tony is going to make sure that the guides are OK and they are going to replace the seals as well as test the rest of the valves for proper hardness.
Well, since I am pulling the heads, I am going to have the block gone thru and replace the rings and bearings because I am sick of the oil burning and I will be damned if I am going to have this thing apart and not resolve this issue. The guy that is going to go thru it builds all the Mosler motors and does great work with the LS motors from what I have seen locally. None of the others that this guy has built have had oil consumption issues like mine. Unfortunately, I did not find out about this guy until after I had already put in my SLP crate motor.
Well, since I am pulling the heads, I am going to have the block gone thru and replace the rings and bearings because I am sick of the oil burning and I will be damned if I am going to have this thing apart and not resolve this issue. The guy that is going to go thru it builds all the Mosler motors and does great work with the LS motors from what I have seen locally. None of the others that this guy has built have had oil consumption issues like mine. Unfortunately, I did not find out about this guy until after I had already put in my SLP crate motor.
06-21-2007, 06:28 AM
#18
Originally Posted by 98Z28CobraKiller
I finally got around to doing a leakdown test last night. I did the entire drivers side and all were well below 10%. Closer to 5% actually. I put the drivers side back together and moved to the passenger side. As soon as I removed the rockers I noticed that the top of the valve (first one on passenger side) showed some pitting. After closer inspection, I noticed that the top of the valve was worn down abit as well compared to the rest of the valves. I stopped right there and remembered the recall on the AFR 225's that was posted in November. I sent Tony Mamo an e-mail (this morning) and got a reply (this afternoon) stating that it looked like that was indeed the case. He hooked me up with one of his sales guys (Jeremy) and they provided me with an RMA and a UPS Acct# to ship it back on. They also provide compensation for labor and fluids and provide the new headgaskets. This is the kind of support that everyone should provide but almost no one does. BIG PROPS TO TONY AND CREW @ AFR!!!!! Tony is going to make sure that the guides are OK and they are going to replace the seals as well as test the rest of the valves for proper hardness.
Well, since I am pulling the heads, I am going to have the block gone thru and replace the rings and bearings because I am sick of the oil burning and I will be damned if I am going to have this thing apart and not resolve this issue. The guy that is going to go thru it builds all the Mosler motors and does great work with the LS motors from what I have seen locally. None of the others that this guy has built have had oil consumption issues like mine. Unfortunately, I did not find out about this guy until after I had already put in my SLP crate motor.
Well, since I am pulling the heads, I am going to have the block gone thru and replace the rings and bearings because I am sick of the oil burning and I will be damned if I am going to have this thing apart and not resolve this issue. The guy that is going to go thru it builds all the Mosler motors and does great work with the LS motors from what I have seen locally. None of the others that this guy has built have had oil consumption issues like mine. Unfortunately, I did not find out about this guy until after I had already put in my SLP crate motor.
06-21-2007, 12:29 PM
#19
I been trying to find time to pull the heads. I got the drivers side head out today. Combustion chambers, cylinder walls and piston tops look good. I had such a hard time getting this head out that I am going to wait a couple of days and drop the entire K member at my buddies house with his lift. It's just not worth all of the extra work. If I pull the other head and it looks the same underneath, I am not going to have the motor taken apart. I am going to let them mill the heads and replace my springs with the upgraded ones. Tony said that he will inspect the guides for me and replace all of the seals. Since I am doing a tranny conversion to a TH350 while it is down, it will be easier to drop the whole thing.
