I want a built engine got 14K
01-04-2008, 03:04 PM
#61
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MID LS based blocks are still around $3500. I understand on the bill thing, it's why my car still isn't running. 
I think we mentioned the LSX being the way to go for your build. However, this guy is only looking for 500-550 rwhp, so the aluminum block will be fine for him.
I think we mentioned the LSX being the way to go for your build. However, this guy is only looking for 500-550 rwhp, so the aluminum block will be fine for him.Its stupid, for anyone, to not use an LSX block. Cost alone is all you need to look at. $1,500 can buy you a better set of heads, there, now you have the power to make up for that 114 lbs.
01-04-2008, 08:15 PM
#62
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After reading all that I'm not sure where to start. An extra 115 lbs in any street car would be a big deal to me. It affects all the things you do, stopping accelerating, turning, whatever.
I find it intresting how people make it seem like 600rwhp is common, or even 550 in a N/A street car. I wonder how many people who think that have lived with one? My last two cars have been fairly high hp N/A and I wouldn't want to be stuck in traffic in either.
A warranty is only as good as the shop issuing it. Unless things have changed, Katech has no warranty, but I'd take one of their motors. A lot of places find ways to void the warranty when you need it.
At 600rwhp traction is my problem. More power wouldn't do me any good before 5th gear, and I wouldn't build an N/A motor if I planned to go FI later. Spray would be easier at that point.
I would say to build the largest motor you can and pick heads and cam for the power level you're after. You might be able to make the same power with a 402, but there are always compromises, and for a street car everyones definition of drivabity is different.
I find it intresting how people make it seem like 600rwhp is common, or even 550 in a N/A street car. I wonder how many people who think that have lived with one? My last two cars have been fairly high hp N/A and I wouldn't want to be stuck in traffic in either.
A warranty is only as good as the shop issuing it. Unless things have changed, Katech has no warranty, but I'd take one of their motors. A lot of places find ways to void the warranty when you need it.
At 600rwhp traction is my problem. More power wouldn't do me any good before 5th gear, and I wouldn't build an N/A motor if I planned to go FI later. Spray would be easier at that point.
I would say to build the largest motor you can and pick heads and cam for the power level you're after. You might be able to make the same power with a 402, but there are always compromises, and for a street car everyones definition of drivabity is different.
01-04-2008, 10:13 PM
#63
Just a sig? I haven't found anyone that shallow yet. As for a year.... I wish. Try 2.5 minimum. The car hasn't even had a motor in it in 4 years. That's what families do to your hobbies. If you would have came to me the day I purchased this motor and told me in 3 years you'll have a $300k mortgage and 2 kids, I would have kicked you in the nuts, but that's life. The $45k bass boat I have parked in the back garage didn't help much either, but with the family, you need your free time. I can send you pictures of the parts in there resting places if you need proof.
Man, that's almost makes me chuckle. You can drag this out as long as you want, but the majority has said their piece. You obviouslly have diffrent opinions that can't be swayed, so stick with it. Cost difference is also around $800, not $1500 if you use a dry sleeve from R.E.D. Not sure what else I can say at this point. It just seems hopeless.....
Yes...BUT.......he also is NOT road racing and he is NOT drag racing. So the extra 114 lbs. is meaningless to him. So why should he spend $1,500 more for a weaker block with sleeves that can have issues and already has limits. And what if he wants to go big with FI later on, now that aluminum sleeved block is garbage and a completely useless TIMEBOMB. The iron block can be re-bored many times, the aluminum block cannot.
Its stupid, for anyone, to not use an LSX block. Cost alone is all you need to look at. $1,500 can buy you a better set of heads, there, now you have the power to make up for that 114 lbs.
Its stupid, for anyone, to not use an LSX block. Cost alone is all you need to look at. $1,500 can buy you a better set of heads, there, now you have the power to make up for that 114 lbs.
Last edited by Beast96Z; 01-04-2008 at 10:19 PM.
01-04-2008, 10:19 PM
#64
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Wow just wow. There is so much bullshit in this thread that I now have rectal cancer from all the smoke that has been blown up my ***. I know of several aluminum sleeved block motors making 600 HP or more. What did people do before the LSX block came out go slow because the block wouldn't take it? I think not a lot of the records for HP and ET have been posted before the LSX came out. Those cars were reliable and fast. Iron wieghs more and unless you are going to boost the **** out of the motor a complete waste of time and money. Go aluminum and pick a reputable shop that will listen to what you want and if they offer a warranty great if not then MAKE SURE it is a reputable shop. There are many shops that offer no warranty but it WOULD NOT stop me from buying a motor from them because they have a great reputation. Just my .02.
01-04-2008, 10:33 PM
#65
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[QUOTE=raceme@you'dlose.com;8424806]Wow just wow. There is so much bullshit in this thread that I now have rectal cancer from all the smoke that has been blown up my ***. QUOTE]
Now thats funny
.
Now thats funny.
01-04-2008, 10:45 PM
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yes, it is pretty funny.
drive a car with 125 lbs extra over the nose and tell me you wont notice it. braking/handling/acceleration...all will be affected.
personally i'd rather have a car with ~ 15-25 less rwhp and 125 lbs lighter. the car will be just as fast in a 1/4 mile, and for sure will be faster in braking and handling.
the lsx block is great but its only better for 1k+ hp.
what is the alloy of choice for GM in their top dog zo6, the to be zr1, and the c5/c6r's? GM is not dumb, they know durability more than any of us ever will.
drive a car with 125 lbs extra over the nose and tell me you wont notice it. braking/handling/acceleration...all will be affected.
personally i'd rather have a car with ~ 15-25 less rwhp and 125 lbs lighter. the car will be just as fast in a 1/4 mile, and for sure will be faster in braking and handling.
the lsx block is great but its only better for 1k+ hp.
what is the alloy of choice for GM in their top dog zo6, the to be zr1, and the c5/c6r's? GM is not dumb, they know durability more than any of us ever will.
01-04-2008, 10:49 PM
#67
FormerVendor
Some of what you and NewLS1er are saying is true but some of these first LSX blocks have been pretty rough as well. I know since we have gone through plenty first hand ourselves but the core block is a very nice part. It will only get better with time. If you think you can just "bore and hone" a block like this though at this stage in it's development and put it together like the LSX then you haven't really ever built anything much like this.
I just hope that GM can redo the LSX normal deck deal to have a little more cylinder length and I would be much happier. They also need to countersink the cam plate bolts for timing chain clearance and use some real gaskets. They could also offer it in more than 3.990 bore so you aren't spending a day and a half boring it out. Who in the hell runs them at 4.000! They could also supply some normal cam bearings instead of the dovetailed number 3 stockers but hey they are free with the block anyway.
On another note the LS1 aluminum blocks are certainly great blocks for anything short of extreme power adder usage. I do like the iron stuff when it's done right but if built right the aluminum block LSx stuff seems to work pretty well to. We've done tons of them and many are running single digit quarter mile times or are people's 100K street engines. On a crazy all out extreme power adder the LSX would probably be better with the all iron construction.
Last edited by racer7088; 01-07-2008 at 06:01 PM. Reason: overly harsh language
01-04-2008, 11:03 PM
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Well Damn so I was hoping to be able to do an engine N/A to put out what mine puts out on the spray for around $10k just for the long block(520ish RWHP) but now it seems like I am smoking crack....
And for those of us that are into handling and not just straight line I would never even dream about going iron LSX or iron block period for that matter. I know we are power jaded having the worlds best engine but 1,000 hp to the tire is not easy or something you want to daily drive!
And for those of us that are into handling and not just straight line I would never even dream about going iron LSX or iron block period for that matter. I know we are power jaded having the worlds best engine but 1,000 hp to the tire is not easy or something you want to daily drive!
01-04-2008, 11:07 PM
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yes, it is pretty funny.
drive a car with 125 lbs extra over the nose and tell me you wont notice it. braking/handling/acceleration...all will be affected.
personally i'd rather have a car with ~ 15-25 less rwhp and 125 lbs lighter. the car will be just as fast in a 1/4 mile, and for sure will be faster in braking and handling.
the lsx block is great but its only better for 1k+ hp.
what is the alloy of choice for GM in their top dog zo6, the to be zr1, and the c5/c6r's? GM is not dumb, they know durability more than any of us ever will.
drive a car with 125 lbs extra over the nose and tell me you wont notice it. braking/handling/acceleration...all will be affected.
personally i'd rather have a car with ~ 15-25 less rwhp and 125 lbs lighter. the car will be just as fast in a 1/4 mile, and for sure will be faster in braking and handling.
the lsx block is great but its only better for 1k+ hp.
what is the alloy of choice for GM in their top dog zo6, the to be zr1, and the c5/c6r's? GM is not dumb, they know durability more than any of us ever will.
01-05-2008, 02:33 PM
#70
An LSX is not only overkill, but not even available.
Sure, an iron block would be more stable than aluminum (dartons or not), but the difference is negligable in a 600hp streetcar. A factory LS7 is perfectly adequate in this situation. It's light, moderately priced, and could acheive larger displacements without the concerns of a factory LS2/LS3 block. It it was a 1000hp NA or F! motor, I'd go LSX, but thats not the application here.
I vote LS7.
Sure, an iron block would be more stable than aluminum (dartons or not), but the difference is negligable in a 600hp streetcar. A factory LS7 is perfectly adequate in this situation. It's light, moderately priced, and could acheive larger displacements without the concerns of a factory LS2/LS3 block. It it was a 1000hp NA or F! motor, I'd go LSX, but thats not the application here.
I vote LS7.
01-05-2008, 04:08 PM
#71
Some of what you and NewLS1er are saying is true but some of these LSX blocks have been total POS's as well with crazy out of spec cam tunnels and out of spec machining big time. I know since we have had the displeasure of having to go through it first hand ourselves but the core block is a nice part. It will only get better with time. If you think you can just "bore and hone" a block like this at this stage in it's development and put it together like the LSX then you haven't really ever built anything much like this.
There's at least one guy on LS1tech here that when I told him about checking the line hones on these LSX deals found out his number 5 main was like .010 big! Now I have heard of another like that so these aren't perfect yet. I'm glad GM built the block but they should have asked some real engine builders about the architecture earlier in the process because there is some seriously wierd stuff going on in that block as well. I am sure most of it will all get straightened out in the next go round.
I just hope that GM can redo the LSX normal deck deal to have a little more cylinder length and I would be much happier. They also need to countersink the damn cam plate bolts and have some real gaskets. They could also offer it in more than 3.990 bore so you aren't spending a day and a half boring it out. Who in the hell runs them at 4.000! THey could also supply some real cam bearings instead of the crappy dovetailed number 3 stockers.
On another note the LS1 aluminum blocks are certainly great blocks for anything short of extreme power adder usage. I do like the iron stuff when it's done right but if built right the aluminum block LSx stuff seems to work pretty well. We've done tons of them and many are running single digit quarter mile times or are people's 100K street engines.
There's at least one guy on LS1tech here that when I told him about checking the line hones on these LSX deals found out his number 5 main was like .010 big! Now I have heard of another like that so these aren't perfect yet. I'm glad GM built the block but they should have asked some real engine builders about the architecture earlier in the process because there is some seriously wierd stuff going on in that block as well. I am sure most of it will all get straightened out in the next go round.
I just hope that GM can redo the LSX normal deck deal to have a little more cylinder length and I would be much happier. They also need to countersink the damn cam plate bolts and have some real gaskets. They could also offer it in more than 3.990 bore so you aren't spending a day and a half boring it out. Who in the hell runs them at 4.000! THey could also supply some real cam bearings instead of the crappy dovetailed number 3 stockers.
On another note the LS1 aluminum blocks are certainly great blocks for anything short of extreme power adder usage. I do like the iron stuff when it's done right but if built right the aluminum block LSx stuff seems to work pretty well. We've done tons of them and many are running single digit quarter mile times or are people's 100K street engines.
What is your shop using for cam bearings in the LSX cast iron block? Are you replacing the factory bearings that are installed in the aluminum blocks?
D.J.
01-05-2008, 05:21 PM
#72
FormerVendor
DJ,
Yes we used 5 sets of regular "LSx" cam bearings to get it right. The LSX just uses the number 3 position bearing in all 5 holes. We use Durabond and Federal Mogul and the race versions depending on what is being done but to tell youy the truth we've had no cam bearing problems in 800 engines so they all work pretty well.
Yes we used 5 sets of regular "LSx" cam bearings to get it right. The LSX just uses the number 3 position bearing in all 5 holes. We use Durabond and Federal Mogul and the race versions depending on what is being done but to tell youy the truth we've had no cam bearing problems in 800 engines so they all work pretty well.
01-05-2008, 07:08 PM
#73
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This is really well spoken, and unlike tuners who may offer a 24k warranty GM has to honor a 100k powertrain warranty. They know very quickly when they do durability testing what the limits of the block are. Ford found out and gave the Termi's iron blocks and trust me the general would do the same if it found a block integrity problem.
01-05-2008, 08:52 PM
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Haha, and hopefully there won't be another war started on the fact that the turbo is.... a rear mount! Hmmm.... LS2 AND BUTT MOUNT. 
Sorry just had to.
Oh, I think back to the original post which if i remember was one of those "what should I do to reach 600 ish rwhp and a bit over 10k in cash" and I would say that you're goals are not unrealistic for an aluminum or iron block. I will mention however, that if you do decide on a power adder... boost is addictive. Think of your goal, then think of giving yourself a little room to get greedy. If you're looking for 600, aluminum will do you just fine with plenty of room to grow. If you start talking 1k+ at the wheels, I'd start looking into options again and maybe consider iron. Now, this isn't saying you can't do it on aluminum, just that you might start researching what options are out there.
I have always been a fan of aluminum block with aluminum heads. I'm no science guy, but the heat expansive properties of the metals would seem to be a possible issue with aluminum on iron. Once again, i'm no science guy or engine builder... just my thoughts. Good luck with your choice, go with a sponsor, read some posts and feedback, and give some of the sponsors a call to speak with them. That should help you out in your decision.
Sorry just had to.Oh, I think back to the original post which if i remember was one of those "what should I do to reach 600 ish rwhp and a bit over 10k in cash" and I would say that you're goals are not unrealistic for an aluminum or iron block. I will mention however, that if you do decide on a power adder... boost is addictive. Think of your goal, then think of giving yourself a little room to get greedy. If you're looking for 600, aluminum will do you just fine with plenty of room to grow. If you start talking 1k+ at the wheels, I'd start looking into options again and maybe consider iron. Now, this isn't saying you can't do it on aluminum, just that you might start researching what options are out there.
I have always been a fan of aluminum block with aluminum heads. I'm no science guy, but the heat expansive properties of the metals would seem to be a possible issue with aluminum on iron. Once again, i'm no science guy or engine builder... just my thoughts. Good luck with your choice, go with a sponsor, read some posts and feedback, and give some of the sponsors a call to speak with them. That should help you out in your decision.
01-06-2008, 04:54 AM
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Pay close attention to the mph at the end of each run. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3S03lsdNjk Here is another vid to look at too while we are at it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnpEG8dGkQY Oh well the cast iron vs. aluminum debate will go on, they bolth have their advantages & dis-advantages. Like you said look at the current goal and make a decision.
01-06-2008, 12:17 PM
#76
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I just had a motor built not too long ago in Lewisville TX by Real Performance Motorsports, with a new 6.0 block, diamond pistons, diamond rings, crower rods, eagle crank, clevitte bearings, machine work, timing chain, all gaskets...seals...etc, 42lb injectors, inline fuel pump, tubular k member, R&R, ARP head bolt kit, and my car detailed LOL for 8,800...and that's not including the heads.
Through a 6 speed made 554rwhp/512tq daily driven.
Just my two cents on where to go and by people who have been fast with proven setups.
<-JermyM
Through a 6 speed made 554rwhp/512tq daily driven.
Just my two cents on where to go and by people who have been fast with proven setups.
<-JermyM
01-07-2008, 06:44 PM
#79
FormerVendor
I changed my post about the LSX up top since it was overly harsh on the LSX blocks and we have had good luck with the ones we have actually received so far besides the small issues that seem to be getting resolved over time. Since then as well I talked with Thom Bates from GM and he is a great guy as well to have on the LSx side of GM for us. He said that the LSX blocks are on backorder and they are making some small fixes on them like the cam plates etc and they will only get better. It's good to know that GM is listening to the LSx community and making things better so I am glad of that since quite a few big companies could care less and they do definitely care.
On another note the lifter bosses and oiling system of the LSX block are a big step up as is the much larger bore that can be run in the LSX block. They also have made many small changes which are well documented and very nice. The GM guys have been really great to give us the LSX block so I look forward to working with them as well to make it better any way I can.
On another note the lifter bosses and oiling system of the LSX block are a big step up as is the much larger bore that can be run in the LSX block. They also have made many small changes which are well documented and very nice. The GM guys have been really great to give us the LSX block so I look forward to working with them as well to make it better any way I can.
01-07-2008, 10:04 PM
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I'm going through this exact process now and have placed all the orders, it should be in that 11-14k range.
I'm going with an LME 440, TFS 235's, a 25x/25x cam, and a ported Fast 90 and ls2 tb.
From what I've been seeing, it seems like the cathedral port stuff is making the best average power. May want to consider this style.
I'm going with an LME 440, TFS 235's, a 25x/25x cam, and a ported Fast 90 and ls2 tb.
From what I've been seeing, it seems like the cathedral port stuff is making the best average power. May want to consider this style.