Problem, new A&A shortblock tearing up
06-19-2006, 10:17 AM
#124
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I know Im saying it again, but easy, easy. Its not an excuse at all, but Andy is a busy guy and when I say busy I mean going in ten different directions every second of the day. He puts in 10-12 hour days that Ive seen personally.
So just be a little patient. Its no consolation, especially since its a huge issue in your life right now, and not so much for him (or at least it seems that way), but give him just a little time to come through.
So just be a little patient. Its no consolation, especially since its a huge issue in your life right now, and not so much for him (or at least it seems that way), but give him just a little time to come through.
06-19-2006, 01:48 PM
#125
Originally Posted by pakisho
I know Im saying it again, but easy, easy. Its not an excuse at all, but Andy is a busy guy and when I say busy I mean going in ten different directions every second of the day. He puts in 10-12 hour days that Ive seen personally.
So just be a little patient. Its no consolation, especially since its a huge issue in your life right now, and not so much for him (or at least it seems that way), but give him just a little time to come through.
So just be a little patient. Its no consolation, especially since its a huge issue in your life right now, and not so much for him (or at least it seems that way), but give him just a little time to come through.
I don't care what direction this guy is running.....he needs to run to the phone or camera and make this guy happy.
06-19-2006, 03:08 PM
#126
Originally Posted by MIGHTYMOUSE
does their phone ring?
can you call from another number and disguise your voice to get them on the line?
the things you have to do i swear..
can you call from another number and disguise your voice to get them on the line?
the things you have to do i swear..
.....This is killing me, I just want the car back on the road.
06-19-2006, 11:10 PM
#127
I got pictures just now from Andy.
They show one lifter all broke the F- up, a piston with a ruined skirt and a cylinder wall to match. I got no response as to what happens next or where we go from here and it's making me start to twitch...
They show one lifter all broke the F- up, a piston with a ruined skirt and a cylinder wall to match. I got no response as to what happens next or where we go from here and it's making me start to twitch...
06-20-2006, 04:59 PM
#130
Originally Posted by Andy@AandACorvette
I just got the first email about this last night and knew nothing about this thread until someone called me about it.
I've talked to the guys at CAM and told them to send it to me with the pan and timing cover still on the engine.
If there is no evidence of an oil pump "O" ring out of place, pump screen jammed against the bottom of the pan, oil pump spacers on backwards, contamination introduced from an oil cooler or old oil pump pickup screen, or any of the many other things that can happen during an installation, I'll replace or rebuild the motor at no charge AND help with the install.
Even if I DO find one of the above mentioned errors, I'll STILL replace or rebuild the motor at NO CHARGE but not help with the install labor. How much fairer than that can I be?
EDIT - <story of another person's issue removed>
It was definately an installation error. Maybe an oil pump "O" ring or one of the other things I mentioned above. I STILL replaced the motor at no charge.
That's just the way I run my business. It's just the right thing to do.
The only thing I didn't do was pay the install labor. I also think that was fair.
After this experience, I just want to make sure I get the motor back in a timely manner and have an honest chance to see what really happened.
Whether it's something that we did or not, we still need to find out exactly what happened to make sure it doesn't happen again.
In the last few years I've done just shy of 150 LS based engines. Sure, I've had a couple of problems, but I've taken care of EVERY one of them.
I've even sent replacement engines to guys (well, one, anyway) that never even sent the old one back!
Tuners have to be careful they are not totally taken advantage of, too.
Guys get on the internet and think if they badmouth someone or threaten to, that they can just get anything they want. Fair or not.
Diamond made a change in the piston design last year. The return holes in the oil ring ara were made much smaller. I had 12 engines that I installed that burned oil. It was quite a while before we figured out what the deal was.
I have taken out and rebuilt 11 of those engines at no charge, PARTS or LABOR. I have 1 more to do. I'll do that one at no charge too.
Again, that's the way I run my business and will continue to.
This engine in question will be dealt with in the fairest manner possible. No dragging it out or any other BS.
He actually mentioned in his email that he might be interested in moving up to a 402. No problem. My fault or not, I'll give him FULL credit towards the 402.
The only thing in question is the installation labor.
EDIT: <...TondSS section removed>
You tell me. Is this fair to all involved, or not?
Andy
I've talked to the guys at CAM and told them to send it to me with the pan and timing cover still on the engine.
If there is no evidence of an oil pump "O" ring out of place, pump screen jammed against the bottom of the pan, oil pump spacers on backwards, contamination introduced from an oil cooler or old oil pump pickup screen, or any of the many other things that can happen during an installation, I'll replace or rebuild the motor at no charge AND help with the install.
Even if I DO find one of the above mentioned errors, I'll STILL replace or rebuild the motor at NO CHARGE but not help with the install labor. How much fairer than that can I be?
EDIT - <story of another person's issue removed>
It was definately an installation error. Maybe an oil pump "O" ring or one of the other things I mentioned above. I STILL replaced the motor at no charge.
That's just the way I run my business. It's just the right thing to do.
The only thing I didn't do was pay the install labor. I also think that was fair.
After this experience, I just want to make sure I get the motor back in a timely manner and have an honest chance to see what really happened.
Whether it's something that we did or not, we still need to find out exactly what happened to make sure it doesn't happen again.
In the last few years I've done just shy of 150 LS based engines. Sure, I've had a couple of problems, but I've taken care of EVERY one of them.
I've even sent replacement engines to guys (well, one, anyway) that never even sent the old one back!
Tuners have to be careful they are not totally taken advantage of, too.
Guys get on the internet and think if they badmouth someone or threaten to, that they can just get anything they want. Fair or not.
Diamond made a change in the piston design last year. The return holes in the oil ring ara were made much smaller. I had 12 engines that I installed that burned oil. It was quite a while before we figured out what the deal was.
I have taken out and rebuilt 11 of those engines at no charge, PARTS or LABOR. I have 1 more to do. I'll do that one at no charge too.
Again, that's the way I run my business and will continue to.
This engine in question will be dealt with in the fairest manner possible. No dragging it out or any other BS.
He actually mentioned in his email that he might be interested in moving up to a 402. No problem. My fault or not, I'll give him FULL credit towards the 402.
The only thing in question is the installation labor.
EDIT: <...TondSS section removed>
You tell me. Is this fair to all involved, or not?
Andy
I was told in no uncertain terms that he would.
06-21-2006, 01:58 PM
#133
Originally Posted by Frost
I was told in no uncertain terms that he would.
Turns out the engine is destroyed. It had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with me. It broke a lifter PERIOD. There are no spun bearings, no broken anything other than the lifter and camshaft. The lifter and camshaft shrapnell got into everything. Every bearing is full of crap, the pistons and bores are all scored up. The oil pump is all scarred up. It's all from chunks of metal from the lifter.
If it was a bearing that tore up first and contaminated everything, we'd have a spun bearing or at least one that's chewed to pieces. That's not the case. They're all just torn up from metal getting into them.
I didn't sell him the lifters or camshaft and I certainly didn't install them.
He got on this Forum and started this thread before he ever called me. That's a horrible thing to do to a business. Particularly when it turns out that the problem was not at all related to anything I did. Do I see an appology anywhere in this thread? I don't think so. That would be the right thing to do.
You guys think that every time a person has a problem that we should just roll over and pay shipping, labor, and every related cost even if it's not our fault. Post it all on the Forum and he'll have to pay up!
I've always stood behind my work and gone out of my way to take care of stuff that's not even my fault. I'd gladly fix this if it were possible. If all I had to do was replace the crank and bearings and reassemble it, I'd do it without hesitation.
I'm presented with an engine that is complete junk. ( the bores are scored and it's already 3.905", the crank is scored too bad to polish, the pistons are worn way beyond useable limits) It's not even good as a core.
The failure was in no way related to anything I did. Absolutely No way.
So because you guys jumped on the bandwagon and don't have a clue what really went on, I should just fork over $4000? ( the price of the short block, core and shipping) How is that fair?
There has to be a limit as to how much you can intimidate a vendor into backing down from what is actually fair and equitable.
He wants a 402 now. I'll give him one at my cost. That's fair and equitable.
Look at the lifter. There is no way you could possibly turn this around to make it my responsibilty.
06-21-2006, 02:39 PM
#134
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I also don't see how anyone could expect A&A to pay for any of this? That would be like me buying a new motor and leaving a socket in the cylinder while I start it up then being pissed off about it.
Sounds like if anyone is at fault its CAM
Sounds like if anyone is at fault its CAM
06-21-2006, 02:56 PM
#135
Wait a minute now.... That quote of me came after reading what you wrote.
I haven't seen any of the bearings, nor has anyone else, that's why I asked: Given the fact that the oil pressure was never what was expected from first startup and continued to worsen (though within GM spec) how do I know about what came first, chicken or egg.... or even the cam for that matter?
Hmmm... I bought a shortblock and the price included a degreed, installed cam. I told you about my turbo kit and we agreed on a nice reverse split grind. I still have the email that has it's specs. I got the shortblock with some boxes... started looking at the boxes and found a timing chain. I thought it was odd since it should have already been on the engine. Looking further I found a cam box. I figured it must have just been tossed in. But wait.... it's heavy. I open it up and figured I just had to eat it and pay CAM to install and degree it. After looking at it, it wasn't what we agreed on at all. It was an off the shelf blower cam, 224-228/114. What did I get when I asked about it? I'm sorry.
Did you read the first post? I DID contact you first, and I NEVER pointed a finger... it wasn't even started in this section, the post was in the FI section to gather opinion and draw on collective experience, it got moved.
I only thought that was the case because you said you'd take care of it regardless, right here in this thread even.
I did not make it so, I was just going by what you had said here.
Well it's certainly not what I was hoping for, but .... When I get back home (I'm out of state for work) I'll arrange payment to have what's left shipped back to me.
Originally Posted by Andy@AandACorvette
I said that I would help fix it even if was an installation error.
Turns out the engine is destroyed. It had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with me. It broke a lifter PERIOD. There are no spun bearings, no broken anything other than the lifter and camshaft. The lifter and camshaft shrapnell got into everything. Every bearing is full of crap, the pistons and bores are all scored up. The oil pump is all scarred up. It's all from chunks of metal from the lifter.
If it was a bearing that tore up first and contaminated everything, we'd have a spun bearing or at least one that's chewed to pieces. That's not the case. They're all just torn up from metal getting into them.
Turns out the engine is destroyed. It had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with me. It broke a lifter PERIOD. There are no spun bearings, no broken anything other than the lifter and camshaft. The lifter and camshaft shrapnell got into everything. Every bearing is full of crap, the pistons and bores are all scored up. The oil pump is all scarred up. It's all from chunks of metal from the lifter.
If it was a bearing that tore up first and contaminated everything, we'd have a spun bearing or at least one that's chewed to pieces. That's not the case. They're all just torn up from metal getting into them.
Originally Posted by Andy@AandACorvette
I didn't sell him the lifters or camshaft and I certainly didn't install them.
Originally Posted by Andy@AandACorvette
He got on this Forum and started this thread before he ever called me. That's a horrible thing to do to a business. Particularly when it turns out that the problem was not at all related to anything I did. Do I see an appology anywhere in this thread? I don't think so. That would be the right thing to do.
Originally Posted by Andy@AandACorvette
You guys think that every time a person has a problem that we should just roll over and pay shipping, labor, and every related cost even if it's not our fault. Post it all on the Forum and he'll have to pay up!
I only thought that was the case because you said you'd take care of it regardless, right here in this thread even.
Originally Posted by Andy@AandACorvette
....He wants a 402 now. I'll give him one at my cost. That's fair and equitable.
Look at the lifter. There is no way you could possibly turn this around to make it my responsibilty.
Look at the lifter. There is no way you could possibly turn this around to make it my responsibilty.
I did not make it so, I was just going by what you had said here.
Well it's certainly not what I was hoping for, but .... When I get back home (I'm out of state for work) I'll arrange payment to have what's left shipped back to me.
06-21-2006, 04:14 PM
#137
anybody ever seen a lifter do that?
i dont think anyone expected AA to cover anything, but thought that it was delightful for you to claim you would reguardless of the result...and equally dissapointing for you to renig.
bare minimum you refund the agreed installation cost since you claim no responsibility (nor actually did the work)
i believe a 402 is all that is/was available for you to sell/send him. not true?
i can't remember if frost payed for a new engine or not, but if 'new' engine then it is not his problem that the bores are out to far to clean up.
i am defnitely a fan of buying engines complete from one place.
i would get in touch with comp and show them the photo. there is always an outside shot that the roller was not heat treated or some defect etc. that the consumer not be responsible for and at least be settled in claims.
i dont think anyone expected AA to cover anything, but thought that it was delightful for you to claim you would reguardless of the result...and equally dissapointing for you to renig.
bare minimum you refund the agreed installation cost since you claim no responsibility (nor actually did the work)
i believe a 402 is all that is/was available for you to sell/send him. not true?
i can't remember if frost payed for a new engine or not, but if 'new' engine then it is not his problem that the bores are out to far to clean up.
i am defnitely a fan of buying engines complete from one place.
i would get in touch with comp and show them the photo. there is always an outside shot that the roller was not heat treated or some defect etc. that the consumer not be responsible for and at least be settled in claims.
06-21-2006, 04:28 PM
#138
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Originally Posted by Andy@AandACorvette
If there is no evidence of an oil pump "O" ring out of place, pump screen jammed against the bottom of the pan, oil pump spacers on backwards, contamination introduced from an oil cooler or old oil pump pickup screen, or any of the many other things that can happen during an installation, I'll replace or rebuild the motor at no charge AND help with the install.
Even if I DO find one of the above mentioned errors, I'll STILL replace or rebuild the motor at NO CHARGE but not help with the install labor.
Even if I DO find one of the above mentioned errors, I'll STILL replace or rebuild the motor at NO CHARGE but not help with the install labor.
Originally Posted by Andy@AandACorvette
If there is no evidence of an oil pump "O" ring out of place, pump screen jammed against the bottom of the pan, oil pump spacers on backwards, contamination introduced from an oil cooler or old oil pump pickup screen, or any of the many other things that can happen during an installation, I'll replace or rebuild the motor at no charge AND help with the install.
Even if I DO find one of the above mentioned errors, I'll STILL replace or rebuild the motor at NO CHARGE but not help with the install labor.
Even if I DO find one of the above mentioned errors, I'll STILL replace or rebuild the motor at NO CHARGE but not help with the install labor.
Originally Posted by Andy@AandACorvette
If there is no evidence of an oil pump "O" ring out of place, pump screen jammed against the bottom of the pan, oil pump spacers on backwards, contamination introduced from an oil cooler or old oil pump pickup screen, or any of the many other things that can happen during an installation, I'll replace or rebuild the motor at no charge AND help with the install.
Even if I DO find one of the above mentioned errors, I'll STILL replace or rebuild the motor at NO CHARGE but not help with the install labor.
Even if I DO find one of the above mentioned errors, I'll STILL replace or rebuild the motor at NO CHARGE but not help with the install labor.
06-21-2006, 06:16 PM
#139
You guys continue to air everything out on the forum.
Did you see the lifter? Does anyone here in any way think this was my responsibility?
I was totally hoodwinked, in my opinion.
The post was made about my engine coming apart and I didn't even know about it. That was just wrong. Later on we find out that it had absolutely NOTHING to do with the engine. Still he continues to post on this thread to keep it going.
I was told that it had low oil pressure and had metal in the oil filter. There was "no noise" or anything. Based on this I figured I'd just fix it or exchange it and fix it later. I was then presented with an engine that is absolutely destroyed. Tell me how there could be "no noise" when this happened.
All I can save out of it is the rods. So I should eat the whole thing? That's totally not right.
I was going to sell him a new 402 and take this one back (again, assuming it was fixable) for about $2000 difference.
Now I've offered to sell him a new 402 for $3200 (giving him credit for the rods) So I'm pitching in $1800. I'm wrong for this?
This whole engine is only costing him $1200 more than if he bought the 402 in the first place. (other than the labor) I think that's a bargain.
This whole thing has been tainted to make me look like the bad guy.
It was weeks before they sent the engine back, but it was made to look like I've been stroking him since early May. They were supposed to send it back complete so I could see what went on. They took the timing cover off and cam out before it came back.
It was about 4 days after it came back before I got it on an engine stand and tore it down. That's the only delays that have been on my end.
I don't come to this forum at all and the only reason I'm here today is because it was brought to my attention that this thread was still being perpetuated.
I'm certainly not blaming the installer either. It was a parts failure. A part that I did not install or supply. That's it, period.
Did you see the lifter? Does anyone here in any way think this was my responsibility?
I was totally hoodwinked, in my opinion.
The post was made about my engine coming apart and I didn't even know about it. That was just wrong. Later on we find out that it had absolutely NOTHING to do with the engine. Still he continues to post on this thread to keep it going.
I was told that it had low oil pressure and had metal in the oil filter. There was "no noise" or anything. Based on this I figured I'd just fix it or exchange it and fix it later. I was then presented with an engine that is absolutely destroyed. Tell me how there could be "no noise" when this happened.
All I can save out of it is the rods. So I should eat the whole thing? That's totally not right.
I was going to sell him a new 402 and take this one back (again, assuming it was fixable) for about $2000 difference.
Now I've offered to sell him a new 402 for $3200 (giving him credit for the rods) So I'm pitching in $1800. I'm wrong for this?
This whole engine is only costing him $1200 more than if he bought the 402 in the first place. (other than the labor) I think that's a bargain.
This whole thing has been tainted to make me look like the bad guy.
It was weeks before they sent the engine back, but it was made to look like I've been stroking him since early May. They were supposed to send it back complete so I could see what went on. They took the timing cover off and cam out before it came back.
It was about 4 days after it came back before I got it on an engine stand and tore it down. That's the only delays that have been on my end.
I don't come to this forum at all and the only reason I'm here today is because it was brought to my attention that this thread was still being perpetuated.
I'm certainly not blaming the installer either. It was a parts failure. A part that I did not install or supply. That's it, period.
Last edited by CorvetteAndy; 06-21-2006 at 06:29 PM.
06-21-2006, 06:52 PM
#140
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Originally Posted by Frost
This is my first LSx project, but not my first all together. I put together my share of SBCs in the past...
With that said, there really weren't any symptoms, or at least none that I took as such. The oil pressure had been about 26-28psi at idle when the engine was up to temp like I mentioned. The pressure would rise with RPM as you would expect. I left to go down the road to get a log from a 4th gear pull with a friend holding the laptop. I made a log from about 3K-5K with very little timing, and was on the way back and the oil pressure fell to about 2-3psi. I cut the car off and coasted back to the driveway. The car had plenty of very clean looking oil, the engine made no ticking, knocking, or any other noise, nor did it smoke. After 1/2 hr or so, I started it back up and it had about 20psi at idle. I was close to home so I limped home keeping it under 1500 RPMS and minimizing load. It maintained about 10-12psi per 1000 RPMs. After I got it home and double checked oil level and let it cool for awhile, I started it up. 40psi at cold start. As it came up to temp the pressure fell dramatically. This is in the span of a few minutes. The car idles at 800 RPMs, and when it got to about 9-10 psi I cut it back off. I trailered it from the drive back to CAM, where it wasn't started again. They cut the filter and found the bearing material.
With that said, there really weren't any symptoms, or at least none that I took as such. The oil pressure had been about 26-28psi at idle when the engine was up to temp like I mentioned. The pressure would rise with RPM as you would expect. I left to go down the road to get a log from a 4th gear pull with a friend holding the laptop. I made a log from about 3K-5K with very little timing, and was on the way back and the oil pressure fell to about 2-3psi. I cut the car off and coasted back to the driveway. The car had plenty of very clean looking oil, the engine made no ticking, knocking, or any other noise, nor did it smoke. After 1/2 hr or so, I started it back up and it had about 20psi at idle. I was close to home so I limped home keeping it under 1500 RPMS and minimizing load. It maintained about 10-12psi per 1000 RPMs. After I got it home and double checked oil level and let it cool for awhile, I started it up. 40psi at cold start. As it came up to temp the pressure fell dramatically. This is in the span of a few minutes. The car idles at 800 RPMs, and when it got to about 9-10 psi I cut it back off. I trailered it from the drive back to CAM, where it wasn't started again. They cut the filter and found the bearing material.
From the damage Andy described, the above seems a bit strange don't you think. No noise, clean oil, no smoke etc.
