New turbo set up! Group buy
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: LITH, IL.
got it, unlocked converter would definitely throw my gear numbers off and skew the graph (hard with that much torque) to the left. That 350 horse number is actually conservative then. Cool beans. I figure about $3850 with shipping if 3-5 go for it. Not sure if any taxes apply, but I can treat myself a little. Put me on the list and let me know how much to send Kevin.
Staging Lane
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
got it, unlocked converter would definitely throw my gear numbers off and skew the graph (hard with that much torque) to the left. That 350 horse number is actually conservative then. Cool beans. I figure about $3850 with shipping if 3-5 go for it. Not sure if any taxes apply, but I can treat myself a little. Put me on the list and let me know how much to send Kevin.
There will be no tax on our part. But who knows what those wonderful people at the boarder will want.
You wont be disappointed at all. You get on it, and the power is right there. Smokes the tires straight thru first well into second. No lag at all. Its quite a transformation. Im more than certain you will enjoy it. In fact, ill bet the farm.
Later on when you feel in the mood for more juice, you can upgrade it. I think thats great. Not every one has 5400 bucks to spend at once. So why not do it affordable chucks.
Good luck! if you could pm me with your contact info please. Just an email for now.
Cheers
Staging Lane
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,029
Likes: 0
From: LITH, IL.
sending the info now. I was not interested in the full kit as it was overkill for me. More power than I would be able to use. This turbo-lite kit is perfect and if I decide later to upgrade, I can!
Hi,
I fully understand your concern. Really.
But the entire downpipe would have to be cut off the DT headers. The rear header would have to be cut only inches from the head and a cross pipe made to reach the turbo. Im certain this can be done in an entirely custom setting. But you must consider 2 things. 1) It will be expensive! 2) There is zero performance gains to be had using such a setup.
It also negates the whole point of the kit. Affordability. The out cry from the LS4 community was they wanted a cheaper option. That void has now been filled. This was the goal.
If you fully understood the operation of using a turbo as your forced induction source, you would clearly understand why it would be of no benefit to employ headers.
Sorry I dont mean to be arguementative about it at all. But it is what it is. He will simply not be able to produce an affordable kit that uses headers.
However, the first out cry was for more affordability. This was met. But who knows, maybe someone will pick up the challenge and make a retro fit kit.
Cheers
I fully understand your concern. Really.
But the entire downpipe would have to be cut off the DT headers. The rear header would have to be cut only inches from the head and a cross pipe made to reach the turbo. Im certain this can be done in an entirely custom setting. But you must consider 2 things. 1) It will be expensive! 2) There is zero performance gains to be had using such a setup.
It also negates the whole point of the kit. Affordability. The out cry from the LS4 community was they wanted a cheaper option. That void has now been filled. This was the goal.
If you fully understood the operation of using a turbo as your forced induction source, you would clearly understand why it would be of no benefit to employ headers.
Sorry I dont mean to be arguementative about it at all. But it is what it is. He will simply not be able to produce an affordable kit that uses headers.
However, the first out cry was for more affordability. This was met. But who knows, maybe someone will pick up the challenge and make a retro fit kit.
Cheers
People spent some money (buying them, getting them installed, etc.) on the headers. I cannot conceivably see the same set of people spending more money to get them removed and purchasing this kit with the hopes that someone will buy their used headers. If anything, I see these same people moving towards intake and camshaft swaps.
I hope you see my angle here and understand the kind of [community] split I was talking about.
I think people want upgrade paths, not complete forks in the road.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,029
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From: LITH, IL.
I was looking at the full kit install instructions and I see they have the alky injection set up to flow at 5 psig and above boost. Since this lesser option is not intercooled and it seems we are looking at 5 psig of boost as a wastegate maximum, is the injection point set at a lower boost level or just rarely going to pop on? I run big miles on the highway and idle a lot on the job site, obviously low/no boost levels and am trying to get a handle on how often I would have to add methonal/alcohol/water.
That would defiantly be a fork in the road. You need to make up your mind on which way to go. Just my 2 cents, how much will it cost for intake conversion, and a cam? And then your only adding to the top end. The turbo will add low end torque top end hp end every thing in between, you'll never be out of the power. But then if you go turbo how much is the tranny going to cost?
Oh and there not F-body headers. There's not 500 companies selling LS4 headers. They should sell pretty quick.
I just reread this and it sounded kind of dickish its not meant to be I'm just trying to help.
I was looking at the full kit install instructions and I see they have the alky injection set up to flow at 5 psig and above boost. Since this lesser option is not intercooled and it seems we are looking at 5 psig of boost as a wastegate maximum, is the injection point set at a lower boost level or just rarely going to pop on? I run big miles on the highway and idle a lot on the job site, obviously low/no boost levels and am trying to get a handle on how often I would have to add methonal/alcohol/water.
Based on what I've read here and on the Cartuning site, my OPINION would be to skip the methanol system offered with this kit and look into a progressive system, and here's why:
I doesn't appear to be a progressive system, which means it's either completely on or off. Why does this matter? Well, in order make sure that you don't see any of the transitional knock mentioned above, this system would need to turn on at the point just prior to where knock would normally start to occur. At what RPM/boost level/load that is on an LS4, I'm not certain. With a progressive system, the alcohol controller, when triggered, will begin spraying an amount of methanol in relation to the amount of boost the MAP is seeing. This has two benefits: You're not wasting alcohol at lower boost levels, as you need less of it lower boost levels and RPMs. Secondly, a lot of alcohol sprayed early kills spool because alcohol cools the charge TOO MUCH. The result is less performance at the onset of injection, which results in less power under the curve. To be fair, however, peak power would be unaffected.
The second thing I don't like about this alcohol kit is that it seems to specify a methanol/water mix. This, in my opinion, is a waste. The system is probably not rated for pure meth because of it's corrosive nature. This also means that you get less benefit from the charge and have to run lower max boost levels because a 50/50 H2O/CH4O mix isn't nearly as effective at deterring knock as is a pure methanol charge.
This is my .02. I'm not slamming the overall turbo package, I actually love the idea of a budget turbo setup for the LS4. I'm just saying there are better off-the-shelf alcohol solutions than the one offered with the kit.
Staging Lane
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
I was looking at the full kit install instructions and I see they have the alky injection set up to flow at 5 psig and above boost. Since this lesser option is not intercooled and it seems we are looking at 5 psig of boost as a wastegate maximum, is the injection point set at a lower boost level or just rarely going to pop on? I run big miles on the highway and idle a lot on the job site, obviously low/no boost levels and am trying to get a handle on how often I would have to add methonal/alcohol/water.
And remember if the fluid gets low, the light comes on. Then you know not to push on it too hard till you fill up.
So not so bad at all.
Cheers
Last edited by LS4_DeltaV; Aug 25, 2010 at 06:10 PM. Reason: Because :)
Staging Lane
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
I don't want to be argumentative either. I do understand that the headers would make no real improvement. I was just looking at it in a more financial aspect.
People spent some money (buying them, getting them installed, etc.) on the headers. I cannot conceivably see the same set of people spending more money to get them removed and purchasing this kit with the hopes that someone will buy their used headers. If anything, I see these same people moving towards intake and camshaft swaps.
I hope you see my angle here and understand the kind of [community] split I was talking about.
I think people want upgrade paths, not complete forks in the road.
People spent some money (buying them, getting them installed, etc.) on the headers. I cannot conceivably see the same set of people spending more money to get them removed and purchasing this kit with the hopes that someone will buy their used headers. If anything, I see these same people moving towards intake and camshaft swaps.
I hope you see my angle here and understand the kind of [community] split I was talking about.
I think people want upgrade paths, not complete forks in the road.
I come from the Porsche community. Once upon a time I did a $30,000.00 3.2 litre build up. I had a complete set of custom headers made to my spec. That was 2800 bucks alone.
On the dyno, the car showed very poor low end performance. It was acting like it didnt have enough back pressure. And that was indeed the case. My design was 1/16 too big in pipe ID. I had to do them all over again. Yes pain, yes expensive but...... part of the hobby.
Good Luck
Cheers
Staging Lane
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
It would be my humble opinion that the system Kevin has chosen for this kit and the IC version is indeed correct. Heres why
1) AFR. Did you know that adding alky changes your AFR by one whole point? Well it does so your tune MUST match the alky timing EXACTLY or your going to loose power.When we had the car on the dyno, we saw the rich condition setup when alky was triggered and we lost lost of power. We adjusted the tune accordingly and got the power back plus more. So keeping a variable system in time with your tune is very difficult. In fact, in my direct experience, its a great big pain in the a**.
2) Running pure methanol is a great big fire risk I think we all would like to avoid along with the increased cost. It is not needed at all for our cars. Why run the risk and increase the expense if its not needed.
3) The system that comes with the kit is fully adjustable. I dont recommend it be tinkered with at all! But there is a very expensive map sensor that triggers the alky to turn on. It is adjustable. The alky jet itself is interchangeable. So with this kit, the correct boost and injector jet has been selected to quell knock above 4 psi perfectly.
4) Reliability. I had a variable system once. Anytime you disconnected the battery the program was gone. Hot super hot summer day sometimes it would go screwy. It looked really cool on the outside, but had a garbage single sided cheap after market circuit board in it. I gave up on it
The alky system that comes with the kit is basic, well built, doesnt fail and properly jetted for our application. It doesnt just dump a bunch of fluid into the induction system.
LS1 Racing - I see you points, and that might be fine for a really sharp guy who wants to say on top of it and has a dyno at his disposal. For these kits, Kevin just wants to make the best kit on the market without a lot of fuss for his customers to deal with. Bolt the kit on, get in the car drive it and have fun. Nothing more is required. Besides, I've had a look at the pump and the rest of the kit. It looks very well built to me. And im just about the most fussy ***** on the face of the earth to please. I spent ten years working for porsche as a tech and I think I got spoiled with really well built things. I can spot garbage a mile away. And in the American performance market, i am astounded by just how much pure garbage is out there. So I FULLY understand your scrutinization very well. Sometimes some additional explanation is needed.
Good Luck!
Cheers
1) AFR. Did you know that adding alky changes your AFR by one whole point? Well it does so your tune MUST match the alky timing EXACTLY or your going to loose power.When we had the car on the dyno, we saw the rich condition setup when alky was triggered and we lost lost of power. We adjusted the tune accordingly and got the power back plus more. So keeping a variable system in time with your tune is very difficult. In fact, in my direct experience, its a great big pain in the a**.
2) Running pure methanol is a great big fire risk I think we all would like to avoid along with the increased cost. It is not needed at all for our cars. Why run the risk and increase the expense if its not needed.
3) The system that comes with the kit is fully adjustable. I dont recommend it be tinkered with at all! But there is a very expensive map sensor that triggers the alky to turn on. It is adjustable. The alky jet itself is interchangeable. So with this kit, the correct boost and injector jet has been selected to quell knock above 4 psi perfectly.
4) Reliability. I had a variable system once. Anytime you disconnected the battery the program was gone. Hot super hot summer day sometimes it would go screwy. It looked really cool on the outside, but had a garbage single sided cheap after market circuit board in it. I gave up on it
The alky system that comes with the kit is basic, well built, doesnt fail and properly jetted for our application. It doesnt just dump a bunch of fluid into the induction system.
LS1 Racing - I see you points, and that might be fine for a really sharp guy who wants to say on top of it and has a dyno at his disposal. For these kits, Kevin just wants to make the best kit on the market without a lot of fuss for his customers to deal with. Bolt the kit on, get in the car drive it and have fun. Nothing more is required. Besides, I've had a look at the pump and the rest of the kit. It looks very well built to me. And im just about the most fussy ***** on the face of the earth to please. I spent ten years working for porsche as a tech and I think I got spoiled with really well built things. I can spot garbage a mile away. And in the American performance market, i am astounded by just how much pure garbage is out there. So I FULLY understand your scrutinization very well. Sometimes some additional explanation is needed.
Good Luck!
Cheers
It would be my humble opinion that the system Kevin has chosen for this kit and the IC version is indeed correct. Heres why
1) AFR. Did you know that adding alky changes your AFR by one whole point? Well it does so your tune MUST match the alky timing EXACTLY or your going to loose power.When we had the car on the dyno, we saw the rich condition setup when alky was triggered and we lost lost of power. We adjusted the tune accordingly and got the power back plus more. So keeping a variable system in time with your tune is very difficult. In fact, in my direct experience, its a great big pain in the a**.
1) AFR. Did you know that adding alky changes your AFR by one whole point? Well it does so your tune MUST match the alky timing EXACTLY or your going to loose power.When we had the car on the dyno, we saw the rich condition setup when alky was triggered and we lost lost of power. We adjusted the tune accordingly and got the power back plus more. So keeping a variable system in time with your tune is very difficult. In fact, in my direct experience, its a great big pain in the a**.
Lastly, I doubt you would have experienced the power loss if you weren't dumping all that methanol into the intake at trigger.
Kidding aside, you have handle it with care just like anything else. Storing methanol before mixing with water is still dangerous, if that's your argument. If you have a fire under the hood, you've got bigger problems than just the half-gallon of pure methanol in it's container. I also disagree when you claim that it's "not needed". I experimented with a 50/50 mix in my Buick. I could run about 18 PSI boost on 91 octane pump gas before I would see KR. On 100% methanol, I've run as high 26 PSI, though I don't do that regularly. Admittedly, these are two totally different animals, as my Buick does not have 10:1 compression and is designed for boost, where the LS4 was not. However, an indisputable fact is, you can run more boost safely on 100% methanol than you can on a 50/50 mix.
3) The system that comes with the kit is fully adjustable. I dont recommend it be tinkered with at all! But there is a very expensive map sensor that triggers the alky to turn on. It is adjustable. The alky jet itself is interchangeable. So with this kit, the correct boost and injector jet has been selected to quell knock above 4 psi perfectly.
4) Reliability. I had a variable system once. Anytime you disconnected the battery the program was gone. Hot super hot summer day sometimes it would go screwy. It looked really cool on the outside, but had a garbage single sided cheap after market circuit board in it. I gave up on it
The alky system that comes with the kit is basic, well built, doesnt fail and properly jetted for our application. It doesnt just dump a bunch of fluid into the induction system.
The alky system that comes with the kit is basic, well built, doesnt fail and properly jetted for our application. It doesnt just dump a bunch of fluid into the induction system.
I can't speak to the quality of the "really cool" looking system you gave up on, but the Alky Control system in my Buick has been dead-reliable and is quite plain looking...Basically, a box with an On/Off switch, a test button, and a gain ****. Very simple and hardly the stuff that would excite the blingy ricer!
Lastly, if it's not progressive, then it is simply dumping the alcohol/water cocktail into the intake at turn-on. There's np other possible way for it to operate.
Now, I won't doubt that you've worked diligently to jet it correctly and get it dialed in as best you can. But the reality is, it's still a compromise from a tuning standpoint, as there's a lot more to tuning than just changing jets. I'm simply saying that a few bucks more spent on a progressive alcohol system will introduce the ability to tweak and tune based on the individuals car, not just your test platform.
LS1 Racing - I see you points, and that might be fine for a really sharp guy who wants to say on top of it and has a dyno at his disposal. For these kits, Kevin just wants to make the best kit on the market without a lot of fuss for his customers to deal with. Bolt the kit on, get in the car drive it and have fun. Nothing more is required. Besides, I've had a look at the pump and the rest of the kit. It looks very well built to me. And im just about the most fussy ***** on the face of the earth to please. I spent ten years working for porsche as a tech and I think I got spoiled with really well built things. I can spot garbage a mile away. And in the American performance market, i am astounded by just how much pure garbage is out there. So I FULLY understand your scrutinization very well. Sometimes some additional explanation is needed.
Good Luck!
Cheers
Good Luck!
Cheers
Thanks for understanding that I'm not looking to flame or diss your product. We simply have different points of view on this one piece of the package.
I'm willing to help anyone with questions regarding methanol and boost, as I'm well-versed in both topics.
Staging Lane
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Just a few corrections.
Its not my product, im just trying to arrange a group buy and give some of the LS1 folks here a break.
Kevin doesnt wish his customers to have to tune anything.
Having a tunable meth system at 5 psi is not required. Providing more boost without an intercooler is not reccomended and is a recipe for disaster. I should post a few pictures of a tear down from a guy who ran 10 psi with no intercooler. He thought he could keep it under control with meth too. Not worth it at all with our LS4.
22 psi of boost is a whole different world. We will likely never see these levels.
This is a basic well operating kit for the weekend hobbyist. Want more boost? buy the full kit and go nuts. But myself or Kevin will not reccommend a boost setting of more than 5 psi for this kit. Your base line suggestion is to run an advanced alky system and run more than 5 psi of boost. Thats fine if some wish to do it, but it wont be supported by Kevin. Its a bad idea. Especially for the guys who are brand new to forced induction. Plain and simple.
Kr is an issue. It must be addressed in this simple, inexpensive kit. And it has been in a cost effective manner and in keeping with the concept of keeping the costs down.
Its not my product, im just trying to arrange a group buy and give some of the LS1 folks here a break.
Kevin doesnt wish his customers to have to tune anything.
Having a tunable meth system at 5 psi is not required. Providing more boost without an intercooler is not reccomended and is a recipe for disaster. I should post a few pictures of a tear down from a guy who ran 10 psi with no intercooler. He thought he could keep it under control with meth too. Not worth it at all with our LS4.
22 psi of boost is a whole different world. We will likely never see these levels.
This is a basic well operating kit for the weekend hobbyist. Want more boost? buy the full kit and go nuts. But myself or Kevin will not reccommend a boost setting of more than 5 psi for this kit. Your base line suggestion is to run an advanced alky system and run more than 5 psi of boost. Thats fine if some wish to do it, but it wont be supported by Kevin. Its a bad idea. Especially for the guys who are brand new to forced induction. Plain and simple.
Kr is an issue. It must be addressed in this simple, inexpensive kit. And it has been in a cost effective manner and in keeping with the concept of keeping the costs down.
Staging Lane
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
OK
Group buy Stats.
I got 4 people who are in and one on the fence.
So we need one or two folks for a great deal.
On Friday night, 8pm EST I will close the offer and proceed with those who have spoken up.
To those who have expressed interest, I will get an email out to you once we close this round.
Cheers
Group buy Stats.
I got 4 people who are in and one on the fence.
So we need one or two folks for a great deal.
On Friday night, 8pm EST I will close the offer and proceed with those who have spoken up.
To those who have expressed interest, I will get an email out to you once we close this round.
Cheers
