Help with Build !?
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 7
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From: Yadkin County, NC
Help with Build !? I'm a newbie, going to buy a Z28 VERY soon as a project and have some (probably stupid) questions.
First question.
My plans for the car are to turbo it, and I understand I will need all the supporting upgrades, and the first of my questions are bottom-end related.
What all will I need to do to the bottom end to support a final HP goal of around 450-500 hp (turbocharged)? Such as forged pistons, pushrods ect. ect. ??
I plan on doing all the internal work now, and the turbo after I can save some money back up. So I would like to have everything inside setup and ready to go.
Second question.
Is my goal (450-500 hp) attainable with out implementing a 355 or 383 stroker kit??
Assume that I know nothing with in your responses as this build is a learning experience for me, and I want to learn as much as possible!
First question.
My plans for the car are to turbo it, and I understand I will need all the supporting upgrades, and the first of my questions are bottom-end related.
What all will I need to do to the bottom end to support a final HP goal of around 450-500 hp (turbocharged)? Such as forged pistons, pushrods ect. ect. ??
I plan on doing all the internal work now, and the turbo after I can save some money back up. So I would like to have everything inside setup and ready to go.
Second question.
Is my goal (450-500 hp) attainable with out implementing a 355 or 383 stroker kit??
Assume that I know nothing with in your responses as this build is a learning experience for me, and I want to learn as much as possible!
TECH Regular
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 441
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From: Deep in the heart of Texas
With a 10.4 to 1 stock compression ratio, the amount of boost you are able to run on a stock short block is limited before head gaskets and detonation becomes a problem. Plenty of builds out there on the net that have already been done. Just mirror the build that best suits your wants.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 7
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From: Yadkin County, NC
I was thinking about the LE2 set-up, and all forged parts on the bottom end. Would it just be pointless to tear everything apart and not go with a 355/383 kit?
I'm starting to think a turbo is going to be a little to daunting of a task while I'm in school.. Might just forget all these forced induction dreams
I'm starting to think a turbo is going to be a little to daunting of a task while I'm in school.. Might just forget all these forced induction dreams
Forged bottom end, hence 355. 355 is just a 0.030 overbore on your 350. You could also do a 357 with a 0.040 over, or 360 with 0.060 over. 383 is using an aftermarket 3.75" crank, 396 is a 3.875" crank, and 414 is a 4" crank and 0.060 overbore. You cant (I say cant but I guess should say "should not") just remove your stock cast bottom end and replace it with a forged bottom end without getting the block machined. And while it is getting machined, it is common practice to get an overbore to remove any egg shape to the walls due to side loading for 100k+ miles or scars.
And just to prevent your most likely next question:
NO.
That cast eagle crank is not a good buy. ONLY GET FORGED if going aftermarket crank. Otherwise, use the stock crank and forged rods and forged pistons. You wont break the stock crank.
And just to prevent your most likely next question:
NO.
That cast eagle crank is not a good buy. ONLY GET FORGED if going aftermarket crank. Otherwise, use the stock crank and forged rods and forged pistons. You wont break the stock crank.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 7
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From: Yadkin County, NC
Forged bottom end, hence 355. 355 is just a 0.030 overbore on your 350. You could also do a 357 with a 0.040 over, or 360 with 0.060 over. 383 is using an aftermarket 3.75" crank, 396 is a 3.875" crank, and 414 is a 4" crank and 0.060 overbore. You cant (I say cant but I guess should say "should not") just remove your stock cast bottom end and replace it with a forged bottom end without getting the block machined. And while it is getting machined, it is common practice to get an overbore to remove any egg shape to the walls due to side loading for 100k+ miles or scars.
Just checking my understanding..
If I was to go with the 360 set up here I would get my block bored 0.060 over, then locate forged rods of factory length, forged pistons to match the new bore, and the stock crank would be fine?
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Don't go past .030. First .060 is going to be pushing the limits for a street boost car even if the walls are sonic checked. Plus if you have some minor problem that requires an overbore later then the block is junk where is you go .030" you have room for later repair.
Plus the piston selection is greatest at .030
For your HP goal are you looking for those numbers flywheel or rear wheel and which tranny do you have?
Plus the piston selection is greatest at .030
For your HP goal are you looking for those numbers flywheel or rear wheel and which tranny do you have?
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Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2012
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From: Yadkin County, NC
At the wheels! I've decided not to boost it.. too much money.
but if i went with the 383 type set up, I could get the 3.75" crank and then bore 0.030 over and piston to match? and its the factory 6 speed tranny.
also with 450-500 at the wheels, will i need a new rear end?
but if i went with the 383 type set up, I could get the 3.75" crank and then bore 0.030 over and piston to match? and its the factory 6 speed tranny.
also with 450-500 at the wheels, will i need a new rear end?
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,740
Likes: 2
From: Nebraska
I'm glad you decided not to go boost right now. F.I. takes knowledge, research, and money and IMO is not for noobies. You would be way over your head if you're trying to learn.
A good high compression 383 with FORGED internals and a good set of heads with a properly matched cam will net you 410-450ish (depending on cam and heads) to the wheels with a 6-speed. That will be plenty of power for a beginner. Do LOTS and LOTS of research here and ask questions and you will find a wealth of knowledge that will get you where you want to go. There are a lot of knowledgeable guys here who have years of experience. There is some B.S. you have to weed out but that's what you get with the internet.
Oh and yes, plan on buying a Strange S60 or a 9" or you will most likely spill the guts of that 10 bolt on the ground with a 6-speed.
A good high compression 383 with FORGED internals and a good set of heads with a properly matched cam will net you 410-450ish (depending on cam and heads) to the wheels with a 6-speed. That will be plenty of power for a beginner. Do LOTS and LOTS of research here and ask questions and you will find a wealth of knowledge that will get you where you want to go. There are a lot of knowledgeable guys here who have years of experience. There is some B.S. you have to weed out but that's what you get with the internet.
Oh and yes, plan on buying a Strange S60 or a 9" or you will most likely spill the guts of that 10 bolt on the ground with a 6-speed.
I've seen this countless times. Newbs who are too affixed with the displacement and not on the heads, cam, or valvetrain. More often than not most first time builds end in disappointing figures because they put stock or "shop ported and polished" heads and a hotcam into a 383. That's not the way to go.
Find a setup somewhere be it on this forum, other forums, friends, etc., that duplicates what you're looking to do and emulate it. The homework has been done for you and you'll know that the part selection yields results.
"No replacement for displacement" no longer applies as widely as it used to.
Find a setup somewhere be it on this forum, other forums, friends, etc., that duplicates what you're looking to do and emulate it. The homework has been done for you and you'll know that the part selection yields results.
"No replacement for displacement" no longer applies as widely as it used to.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,740
Likes: 2
From: Nebraska
I've seen this countless times. Newbs who are too affixed with the displacement and not on the heads, cam, or valvetrain. More often than not most first time builds end in disappointing figures because they put stock or "shop ported and polished" heads and a hotcam into a 383. That's not the way to go.
Find a setup somewhere be it on this forum, other forums, friends, etc., that duplicates what you're looking to do and emulate it. The homework has been done for you and you'll know that the part selection yields results.
"No replacement for displacement" no longer applies as widely as it used to.
Find a setup somewhere be it on this forum, other forums, friends, etc., that duplicates what you're looking to do and emulate it. The homework has been done for you and you'll know that the part selection yields results.
"No replacement for displacement" no longer applies as widely as it used to.
I did a point for point comparison of ramair95TA's car to another A4 car that has a refreshed 350 and the same exact heads.
The 33ci, half a point of compression and 6 degrees more intake valve duration netted a 7% gain from memory. Now that is a 7% gain. The reason I broke it all down thou was someone had stated than a 10% increase in displacement meant a 10% increase in power given the same heads/valvetrain. The 33ci displacement increase of the 383 is between 9-10% increase in displacement yet with more compression and more cam it made only 7% more HP and some of the 7% has to be attributed to the compression and cam.
Then at the track the performance of the two cars is actually even closer despite the 350 being in a heavier car. Now both cars are standout performers for what they are I am not saying anything bad about either. Joe understands that the money he spent on the 383 rotating assembly gained him less power than did the heads and cam and it DID GAIN HIM POWER. Just not a whole lot for what was spent. Once you start making a big number every extra HP cost more than the one before it and that is maybe the real lesson.
To take a 310rwhp bolton car and make it a 425rwhp heads/cam car is $3500ish once you figure injectors and such to make it a 455rwhp car takes another say $3-3500ish shortblock
The 33ci, half a point of compression and 6 degrees more intake valve duration netted a 7% gain from memory. Now that is a 7% gain. The reason I broke it all down thou was someone had stated than a 10% increase in displacement meant a 10% increase in power given the same heads/valvetrain. The 33ci displacement increase of the 383 is between 9-10% increase in displacement yet with more compression and more cam it made only 7% more HP and some of the 7% has to be attributed to the compression and cam.
Then at the track the performance of the two cars is actually even closer despite the 350 being in a heavier car. Now both cars are standout performers for what they are I am not saying anything bad about either. Joe understands that the money he spent on the 383 rotating assembly gained him less power than did the heads and cam and it DID GAIN HIM POWER. Just not a whole lot for what was spent. Once you start making a big number every extra HP cost more than the one before it and that is maybe the real lesson.
To take a 310rwhp bolton car and make it a 425rwhp heads/cam car is $3500ish once you figure injectors and such to make it a 455rwhp car takes another say $3-3500ish shortblock
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Yadkin County, NC
I'm glad you decided not to go boost right now. F.I. takes knowledge, research, and money and IMO is not for noobies. You would be way over your head if you're trying to learn.
A good high compression 383 with FORGED internals and a good set of heads with a properly matched cam will net you 410-450ish (depending on cam and heads) to the wheels with a 6-speed. That will be plenty of power for a beginner. Do LOTS and LOTS of research here and ask questions and you will find a wealth of knowledge that will get you where you want to go. There are a lot of knowledgeable guys here who have years of experience. There is some B.S. you have to weed out but that's what you get with the internet.
Oh and yes, plan on buying a Strange S60 or a 9" or you will most likely spill the guts of that 10 bolt on the ground with a 6-speed.
A good high compression 383 with FORGED internals and a good set of heads with a properly matched cam will net you 410-450ish (depending on cam and heads) to the wheels with a 6-speed. That will be plenty of power for a beginner. Do LOTS and LOTS of research here and ask questions and you will find a wealth of knowledge that will get you where you want to go. There are a lot of knowledgeable guys here who have years of experience. There is some B.S. you have to weed out but that's what you get with the internet.
Oh and yes, plan on buying a Strange S60 or a 9" or you will most likely spill the guts of that 10 bolt on the ground with a 6-speed.
So after i decide all my bottom end, I can talk to the guys at Elliot Llyod and they can steer my in the right direction in the head department? And which would be better for the price, the S60 or a 9"? I don't mind waiting to save up for better parts, rather than cutting corners.. but I i don't wanna over pay either.
Thanks for all this, super helpful.
Just wait for an S60, 9" or 12 bolt to pop up in the classifieds for around $1500, shoot for something around 3.42-4.11 gears. I have 4.33s and they are too steep for a highway daily driver.
0.060 over is fine as long as you dont plan on spraying or going FI, the walls are just too thin. But alot of guys on here have had no issues with going 0.060 NA, Joelster has a 4" crank 4.060 and has a 414ci running 10.15s, wicked94Z has a 388 half filled, and Gizmo has been using 4.060 bore in alot of motors.
Cheapest and easiest for a newb would be to say yes, find some stock 5.7" forged rods, most likely the Scat ones with the 7/16 ARP bolts, and some forged pistons, whether you decide 4.030, .040 or .060, shoot for 12-12.5:1 compression, put on some heads and cam, get a good tune and let it eat.
But for a better rod/stroke ratio, pick up 6" rods and pistons FOR a 6" rod. Im not going to explain it more here, do a search, plenty will come up, at least 3 of these threads come up per week.
0.060 over is fine as long as you dont plan on spraying or going FI, the walls are just too thin. But alot of guys on here have had no issues with going 0.060 NA, Joelster has a 4" crank 4.060 and has a 414ci running 10.15s, wicked94Z has a 388 half filled, and Gizmo has been using 4.060 bore in alot of motors.
Cheapest and easiest for a newb would be to say yes, find some stock 5.7" forged rods, most likely the Scat ones with the 7/16 ARP bolts, and some forged pistons, whether you decide 4.030, .040 or .060, shoot for 12-12.5:1 compression, put on some heads and cam, get a good tune and let it eat.
But for a better rod/stroke ratio, pick up 6" rods and pistons FOR a 6" rod. Im not going to explain it more here, do a search, plenty will come up, at least 3 of these threads come up per week.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,740
Likes: 2
From: Nebraska
So after i decide all my bottom end, I can talk to the guys at Elliot Llyod and they can steer my in the right direction in the head department? And which would be better for the price, the S60 or a 9"? I don't mind waiting to save up for better parts, rather than cutting corners.. but I i don't wanna over pay either.
Thanks for all this, super helpful.
Thanks for all this, super helpful.
Also, an S60 is a lot cheaper than a 9". It's a little heavier but it's a solid unit. The 9" has many advantages too but it's a little pricier though and that's why I bought an S60.
But like Buffmatt said, check the classifieds regularly, there is usually one for sale in there. Just be sure it's for an LT1 car if you can help it. LS1 cars have different brakes and usually 4-channel ABS.
