HELP!! The 5 Year long Clutch change story
09-04-2013, 12:50 PM
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HELP!! The 5 Year long Clutch change story Ok guys I'm really at a point where I need some moral support to push this project forward any more instead of just calling it quits and dumping it all...
The story begins about 5 years ago when I realized my 1994 Z28 had a failing auto trans....
Of course I could have just replaced it with a rebuilt unit, learned how to rebuild one myself etc, but No I had to keep pushing and realized that I could of course just "swap in a 6 speed." I realize that of course this is completely do-able and that numerous threads exist on here to document how and plenty of guys have successfully completed such mission with not much difficulty. But of course in having owned this same car since it was almost new, nothing has ever gone easy. And in the multiple times when things were getting crazy, i.e. diagnosing faulty Optispark and deciding to upgrade to the newer style vented unit and the complete teardown of the front of the engine required etc...blah blah blah..
I know no one cares everyone here has there own LT1 tales of woe and clearly you are only still reading because you want to know...
WHY IS IT TAKING 5 YEARS FOR THIS MORON TO CHANGE A CLUTCH>????
Well dear reader I could of course explain my ongoing divorce, child custody war, etc etc but again no one cares the reality is that I have NO IDEA WHAT I"M DOING.... I keep running into a wall with this conversion but do not want to give up and cannot take this somewhere else for someone else to fix it. I've asked at local places and no one really knows what to say without seeing the car.
I have to this point installed what I believed to be a fully functional t-56 trans and RAM powergrip clutch. There were numerous problems with the install along the way, such as this lovely issue in which the clutch seemed to have been delivered with parts installed backward?
https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tr...-problems.html
I however cannot get it to actually work, the car when put into gear up on jack stands has normal clutch pedal pressure, shifts through the gears normally, then when the engine is running if you select a gear and let the clutch pedal out.... NOTHING HAPPENS. I tried this in various gears and nothing, no engagement of the driveline no movement of the rear wheels.
I then thought ok this is a case of the master/slave cylinder engagement issue and its somehow not set up or bled right or needs an adjustable unit to work right. I read a ton of threads on just this issue and the only thing is that they all present in the opposite way. The clutch in those situations is never fully disengaging and this causes them to creep in gear or drag the clutch disk etc. I then did the trick of removing the slave cylinder spacer and watching the rod of the slave extend as someone pushed on the clutch pedal. When this is done the rod moves forward about 1/2" or so and pushed the Arm of the throw-out bearing forward towards the flywheel the same amount and then retracts when the pedal is released. I then started engine and did same and still nothing when the clutch is released in gear but this time I released clutch in neutral and heard metal clanging type noise from inside trans/bellhousing area and immediately shut car off. Looking inside the hole for the slave and arm there is nothing obviously wrong.
So I am asking for guidance/thoughts here as to what to do next. I feel like only thing to do is remove trans and inspect the whole clutch parts etc.
The story begins about 5 years ago when I realized my 1994 Z28 had a failing auto trans....
Of course I could have just replaced it with a rebuilt unit, learned how to rebuild one myself etc, but No I had to keep pushing and realized that I could of course just "swap in a 6 speed." I realize that of course this is completely do-able and that numerous threads exist on here to document how and plenty of guys have successfully completed such mission with not much difficulty. But of course in having owned this same car since it was almost new, nothing has ever gone easy. And in the multiple times when things were getting crazy, i.e. diagnosing faulty Optispark and deciding to upgrade to the newer style vented unit and the complete teardown of the front of the engine required etc...blah blah blah..
I know no one cares everyone here has there own LT1 tales of woe and clearly you are only still reading because you want to know...
WHY IS IT TAKING 5 YEARS FOR THIS MORON TO CHANGE A CLUTCH>????
Well dear reader I could of course explain my ongoing divorce, child custody war, etc etc but again no one cares the reality is that I have NO IDEA WHAT I"M DOING.... I keep running into a wall with this conversion but do not want to give up and cannot take this somewhere else for someone else to fix it. I've asked at local places and no one really knows what to say without seeing the car.
I have to this point installed what I believed to be a fully functional t-56 trans and RAM powergrip clutch. There were numerous problems with the install along the way, such as this lovely issue in which the clutch seemed to have been delivered with parts installed backward?
https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tr...-problems.html
I however cannot get it to actually work, the car when put into gear up on jack stands has normal clutch pedal pressure, shifts through the gears normally, then when the engine is running if you select a gear and let the clutch pedal out.... NOTHING HAPPENS. I tried this in various gears and nothing, no engagement of the driveline no movement of the rear wheels.
I then thought ok this is a case of the master/slave cylinder engagement issue and its somehow not set up or bled right or needs an adjustable unit to work right. I read a ton of threads on just this issue and the only thing is that they all present in the opposite way. The clutch in those situations is never fully disengaging and this causes them to creep in gear or drag the clutch disk etc. I then did the trick of removing the slave cylinder spacer and watching the rod of the slave extend as someone pushed on the clutch pedal. When this is done the rod moves forward about 1/2" or so and pushed the Arm of the throw-out bearing forward towards the flywheel the same amount and then retracts when the pedal is released. I then started engine and did same and still nothing when the clutch is released in gear but this time I released clutch in neutral and heard metal clanging type noise from inside trans/bellhousing area and immediately shut car off. Looking inside the hole for the slave and arm there is nothing obviously wrong.
So I am asking for guidance/thoughts here as to what to do next. I feel like only thing to do is remove trans and inspect the whole clutch parts etc.
09-04-2013, 02:59 PM
#2
what ft lb did you TQ the PP bolts to and are they correct LT1 PP bolts?
TQ should be 22 ft lbs, more will cause the clutch to not disengage but the clutch fork will still depress
TQ should be 22 ft lbs, more will cause the clutch to not disengage but the clutch fork will still depress
09-04-2013, 04:23 PM
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In all honesty I have no idea if i had the OEM bolts or if the TQ was correct. That was assembled 4+ years ago and at the time i was definately attempting to use all factory parts but I bought a very incomplete swap setup and did have to make do with things on occasion. I also had the FSM and this forum for directions so I would like to claim i followed the correct TQ but cannot swear to it at all. I do recall that everything on the clutch was very hard to figure out and did not just go together smoothly I think there was some serious compression going on as the new stuff went together which i attributed to the non factory RAM parts.
When you say it wont disengage when over torqued is my description of what happens in line with that?
When you say it wont disengage when over torqued is my description of what happens in line with that?
09-04-2013, 07:16 PM
#4
re-read your post, to clarify:
with motor on you feel you can shift it in gear but when you let clutch out nothing happens?
or
you can shift into gears with motor off but can't get car "in gear" with engine running?
with engine off, car in gear, can you turn the rear wheels?
do you know if the shifter ball stud is riding in the ball slot in the tranny?
trying to confirm if you can actually get the car in gears with engine either on or off. even with engine off and not pushing in clutch you should be able to push it in gears, although it will be harder.
with motor on you feel you can shift it in gear but when you let clutch out nothing happens?
or
you can shift into gears with motor off but can't get car "in gear" with engine running?
with engine off, car in gear, can you turn the rear wheels?
do you know if the shifter ball stud is riding in the ball slot in the tranny?
trying to confirm if you can actually get the car in gears with engine either on or off. even with engine off and not pushing in clutch you should be able to push it in gears, although it will be harder.
09-05-2013, 08:24 AM
#5
I have to agree with ******, in the fact maybe ball shifter could be off or not in correctly. I'd have to do sum research on that particular clutch setup you have, so I can't really say anything except for if the torque is too much, yes you might have a problem there.
I'd seriously consider pulling everything out, reexamine and take time and start from fresh. Alot could have happened in 4+ years of sitting. I know this might be a pain in the ***, but I would start over from scratch.
Do you have any literature on this type of clutch/trans set up to read as you go along on install?
Double check all bolts and any other hardware, make sure that they are correct.
Good luck. Keep us posted along the way please. Joe
I'd seriously consider pulling everything out, reexamine and take time and start from fresh. Alot could have happened in 4+ years of sitting. I know this might be a pain in the ***, but I would start over from scratch.
Do you have any literature on this type of clutch/trans set up to read as you go along on install?
Double check all bolts and any other hardware, make sure that they are correct.
Good luck. Keep us posted along the way please. Joe
09-05-2013, 08:26 AM
#6
Oh one other thing I forgot to mention like ****** asked, with engine off, tranny in gear can you move/rotate tires? Think that would be really great to know one way or the other.
09-05-2013, 01:53 PM
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Wow guys this is exactly the support I needed to get this moving... THANKS!!
hopefully to answer all that was posted what I know is:
Car is up on jack stands all wheels off ground. I can position shifter into all gears with engine turned off, as described its slightly easier to do this with the clutch pedal depressed but its possible to do without pressing clutch at all and actually I checked this when I installed shifter after trans went back into car and there was no hydraulics set up yet at all. I have changed a shifter out on another similar car and I'm 99% sure it is installed correctly.
With engine running I was able to put shifter into first and other gears no problem, no noises made and then when I let clutch pedal out, nothing happens, no turning of rear wheels or other noises indicating to me for instance that the driveshaft was getting turned or having power applied to it. Also while engine was running I placed shifter into neutral and when the clutch was left of then I hear a strange metal clanking type sound from the area of the clutch/bellhousing and quickly shut off.
Today I checked and with engine off and the trans selected into gear I can turn the rear wheels by hand, it feels pretty much the same to me if the trans is also in neutral. While turning the wheels in gear I do not believe the driveshaft is moving? I do have the slave cylinder removed from trans at this time.
hopefully to answer all that was posted what I know is:
Car is up on jack stands all wheels off ground. I can position shifter into all gears with engine turned off, as described its slightly easier to do this with the clutch pedal depressed but its possible to do without pressing clutch at all and actually I checked this when I installed shifter after trans went back into car and there was no hydraulics set up yet at all. I have changed a shifter out on another similar car and I'm 99% sure it is installed correctly.
With engine running I was able to put shifter into first and other gears no problem, no noises made and then when I let clutch pedal out, nothing happens, no turning of rear wheels or other noises indicating to me for instance that the driveshaft was getting turned or having power applied to it. Also while engine was running I placed shifter into neutral and when the clutch was left of then I hear a strange metal clanking type sound from the area of the clutch/bellhousing and quickly shut off.
Today I checked and with engine off and the trans selected into gear I can turn the rear wheels by hand, it feels pretty much the same to me if the trans is also in neutral. While turning the wheels in gear I do not believe the driveshaft is moving? I do have the slave cylinder removed from trans at this time.
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09-05-2013, 06:59 PM
#8
OP
If you can answer yes or no.
1. with engine off, car in gear, rear wheels off the ground...can you turn the rear wheels?
2. with engine off, car in gear, clutch pedal pushed all the way in, can you turn the rear wheels? (you need a person to help for this)
3. engine running, car in gear, wheels off the ground...do the rear wheels turn?
I am trying to determine if:
you can actually get the TRANSMISSION into a gear
If i understand your post you feel you can get it in gear with wheels off ground and the rear tires don't move, right?
FWIW with the 94-97 T56 car in neutral, engine running, clutch out (engaged) it is common to hear what sounds like marbles in a can...if this describes the noise you hear.
With that said a grinding metal clanking screaching sound is not normal.
your original post about installing the clutch years ago showed a PP with the TO bearing on backwards (weird way to ship) and you were not sure which side of the disc goes towards FW.
THE SIDE OF THE DISC WITH THE RAISED CENTER PART WITH SPRINGS GOES IN THE RECESS OF THE FW
and the TO bearing goes through the bottom pf PP and clips to the 3 ears of diaphram on the PP with a curved spring clamp
I assume you have it installed correctly as I don't even think you can bolt a PP down with the disc upside down...but frankly I have never tried to find out.
about your PP bolts. If you are NOT using the correct GM (now ARP sells them) PP bolt your clutch will hang on the threads of a "standard" full shank threaded bolt. AND if you TQ the PP bolts to tight (more than 22 ft lbs) than the clutch won't disengage. You can even peel back the lip of the TO bearing because of this because the hydraulics are much stronger than you would imagine.
Bent clutch fork or lose fork pivot stud will also cause clutch not to disengage.
so I am trying to understand if
your transmission does actually shift into gears
and if it does shift into gears does the clutch actually disengage.
if we can get the answers to the ?'s..we move on
lastly your tranny could be complete toast if the clutch is in fact right, hydraulics work, and you shifter is installed correctly since, if I understand your last post
"With engine running I was able to put shifter into first and other gears no problem, no noises made and then when I let clutch pedal out, nothing happens, no turning of rear wheels or other noises indicating to me for instance that the driveshaft was getting turned or having power applied to it."
If you can answer yes or no.
1. with engine off, car in gear, rear wheels off the ground...can you turn the rear wheels?
2. with engine off, car in gear, clutch pedal pushed all the way in, can you turn the rear wheels? (you need a person to help for this)
3. engine running, car in gear, wheels off the ground...do the rear wheels turn?
I am trying to determine if:
you can actually get the TRANSMISSION into a gear
If i understand your post you feel you can get it in gear with wheels off ground and the rear tires don't move, right?
FWIW with the 94-97 T56 car in neutral, engine running, clutch out (engaged) it is common to hear what sounds like marbles in a can...if this describes the noise you hear.
With that said a grinding metal clanking screaching sound is not normal.
your original post about installing the clutch years ago showed a PP with the TO bearing on backwards (weird way to ship) and you were not sure which side of the disc goes towards FW.
THE SIDE OF THE DISC WITH THE RAISED CENTER PART WITH SPRINGS GOES IN THE RECESS OF THE FW
and the TO bearing goes through the bottom pf PP and clips to the 3 ears of diaphram on the PP with a curved spring clamp
I assume you have it installed correctly as I don't even think you can bolt a PP down with the disc upside down...but frankly I have never tried to find out.
about your PP bolts. If you are NOT using the correct GM (now ARP sells them) PP bolt your clutch will hang on the threads of a "standard" full shank threaded bolt. AND if you TQ the PP bolts to tight (more than 22 ft lbs) than the clutch won't disengage. You can even peel back the lip of the TO bearing because of this because the hydraulics are much stronger than you would imagine.
Bent clutch fork or lose fork pivot stud will also cause clutch not to disengage.
so I am trying to understand if
your transmission does actually shift into gears
and if it does shift into gears does the clutch actually disengage.
if we can get the answers to the ?'s..we move on
lastly your tranny could be complete toast if the clutch is in fact right, hydraulics work, and you shifter is installed correctly since, if I understand your last post
"With engine running I was able to put shifter into first and other gears no problem, no noises made and then when I let clutch pedal out, nothing happens, no turning of rear wheels or other noises indicating to me for instance that the driveshaft was getting turned or having power applied to it."
09-05-2013, 07:59 PM
#9
You need to help us more to help you. You need to answer the above questions. Here is another one for you.
With the rear tires off the ground,trans in gear, engine off, Can you turn the wheels by hand?
With the rear tires off the ground,trans in gear, engine off, Can you turn the wheels by hand?
09-05-2013, 08:58 PM
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I'll try to clear up as best as i can here I think i already answered above that with the car jacked up as it is, and the engine off I can put the transmission into any gear i want to and then I am able to freely turn the rear wheels and while doing so I do not see the driveshaft turning at all which is the same thing that happens if the trans is left in N.
I believe the shifter is installed correctly, I removed and installed it repeatedly during this process and also had it installed on the bare trans that I bought before putting it into the car so that I could make sure it did in fact shift into all gears and i then made sure all internals were working correctly by turning the input shaft by hand and watching the output shaft for movement.
The bolts I used on the PP i am not sure on, hopefully i can see at least one of them from the slave cylinder access hole and I'll try to check on that tomorrow. Interestingly i had a old post question asking exactly where to buy these bolts since they did not come with the clutch kit i bought. ALso I'm not sure on the tightness they were installed to, I hope that i followed the TQ spec as i had a lot of literature on the conversion at the time but again can't swear to it. The post i attached to this with the confusion about the TOB and clutch disk i believe I followed the advise posted then by interestingly enough ***** and others which involved flipping it over as it was delivered wrongly set up for whatever reason.
I think reading all these replies that the issue is something wrong with the clutch and that it has to come out to figure out what that is.
THe noise i heard with engine running and clutch left out in N was def not normal marbles sound I'm familar with that and this was more like CLANG CLANG
Thanks for all the help!
I believe the shifter is installed correctly, I removed and installed it repeatedly during this process and also had it installed on the bare trans that I bought before putting it into the car so that I could make sure it did in fact shift into all gears and i then made sure all internals were working correctly by turning the input shaft by hand and watching the output shaft for movement.
The bolts I used on the PP i am not sure on, hopefully i can see at least one of them from the slave cylinder access hole and I'll try to check on that tomorrow. Interestingly i had a old post question asking exactly where to buy these bolts since they did not come with the clutch kit i bought. ALso I'm not sure on the tightness they were installed to, I hope that i followed the TQ spec as i had a lot of literature on the conversion at the time but again can't swear to it. The post i attached to this with the confusion about the TOB and clutch disk i believe I followed the advise posted then by interestingly enough ***** and others which involved flipping it over as it was delivered wrongly set up for whatever reason.
I think reading all these replies that the issue is something wrong with the clutch and that it has to come out to figure out what that is.
THe noise i heard with engine running and clutch left out in N was def not normal marbles sound I'm familar with that and this was more like CLANG CLANG
Thanks for all the help!
09-05-2013, 09:51 PM
#11
With the trans in gear, and turning the rear wheels, you don't see the driveshaft turning??? That tells me stop! If you can spin the rear wheels and the driveshaft doesn't spin you are looking in the wrong place. The driveshaft is essentially directly connected to the rear wheels through the differential. The driveshaft will spin anytime the rear wheels move. If not there is a problem. I wish I could see where you are located, as there are a lot of things going on here that are leading you in a hundred different directions.
09-06-2013, 09:20 AM
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My bad I was trying to give a better explanation of things than Y/N
which ?? remain unanswered here?
1. with engine off, car in gear, rear wheels off the ground...can you turn the rear wheels?
YES
2. with engine off, car in gear, clutch pedal pushed all the way in, can you turn the rear wheels? (you need a person to help for this)
YES
3. engine running, car in gear, wheels off the ground...do the rear wheels turn?
NO
which ?? remain unanswered here?
1. with engine off, car in gear, rear wheels off the ground...can you turn the rear wheels?
YES
2. with engine off, car in gear, clutch pedal pushed all the way in, can you turn the rear wheels? (you need a person to help for this)
YES
3. engine running, car in gear, wheels off the ground...do the rear wheels turn?
NO
09-06-2013, 10:26 AM
#15
My bad I was trying to give a better explanation of things than Y/N
which ?? remain unanswered here?
1. with engine off, car in gear, rear wheels off the ground...can you turn the rear wheels?
YES
2. with engine off, car in gear, clutch pedal pushed all the way in, can you turn the rear wheels? (you need a person to help for this)
YES
3. engine running, car in gear, wheels off the ground...do the rear wheels turn?
NO
which ?? remain unanswered here?
1. with engine off, car in gear, rear wheels off the ground...can you turn the rear wheels?
YES
2. with engine off, car in gear, clutch pedal pushed all the way in, can you turn the rear wheels? (you need a person to help for this)
YES
3. engine running, car in gear, wheels off the ground...do the rear wheels turn?
NO
what you are saying is your rear wheels do not turn with engine on, car in gear, clutch out. something inside of the transmission is not right
since you have the tranny out inspect PP bolts for right ones and TQ
09-06-2013, 10:52 AM
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Once again kids we have a WINNER!!!!!
thanks to all this proding you guys are giving me online I decided to take the day off work and crawl under Camaro yet again. I removed the slave and decided to see what I could see by rotating engine over by hand. about a 1/4 turn around I looked in and see this...
I'm going to get ready for pulling the trans out hopefully starting tomorrow morning as clearly I Fucked the Chicken here and used generic hardware store bolts instead of the correct PP ones and as suggested already this is probably the root of the problem here.
09-06-2013, 11:27 AM
#18
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I don't think that is your problem. It's a good idea to replace them with the correct bolts, but that should have nothing to do with the engagement issues you are having. If you did truly push in the clutch fork then it may not be seated on the TB correctly... who knows. Something this wrong should be glaringly obvious once the trans is pulled.
09-06-2013, 12:07 PM
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I can see almost the entire fork, it appears straight and its possible to slide it out some from the TOB and then replace it back on there at which point you hear a click sound and it seems much more solidly in place, and that is how it was when I started opening all this up so again I assume that part is fine and installed right. Again thanks for all the help guys all try to post up some picks this weekend assuming the trans comes out.
09-06-2013, 02:25 PM
#20
I'll try to clear up as best as i can here I think i already answered above that with the car jacked up as it is, and the engine off I can put the transmission into any gear i want to and then I am able to freely turn the rear wheels and while doing so I do not see the driveshaft turning at all which is the same thing that happens if the trans is left in N.
lp!
lp!