Toplessghost97

In the near future I'm planning on building a 396, since I already have some of the parts at home (block, intake, heads, etc.) that puts just over 500 to the ground N/A. Got to keep up with the Jones's, couple of friends of mine have 500 plus HP Cobra's and LS1 cars. I've owned 2 other LT1 fbodies, but now that I've got some of the parts to build an engine, and well I have no choice but to go for it, and build something that would make any LT1 man proud. Here is what I plan on working with, 396 fully forged short block, w/h-beam rods, AFR 227 heads w/2.08 intake valves instead of the 2.10, 1.6 shaft mount roller rockers, ported LT1 intake, 58mm mono blade throttle body, 42lb injectors, msd coil packs conversion kit, 17/8 long tube headers and direct port nitrous, 6 speed trans and a ten bolt for the time being.

Here is the problem, I don't know what size cam to run, all I know it will be custom grind and it will be a hydraulic roller, NO SOLID ROLLER. I know I'm giving up horse power, just don't want any problems, that SR can sometimes give. This is not a daily driver, but if I wanted to drive it daily I could, it is a full weight street car everything in it including back seat.

Here are some cam specs that I like that I wrote out.
242/248 620/615 113 w/1.7
242/254 620/615 112.5 w/1.6
242/254 613/624 112.5 w1.6
248/254 601/607 110 w1.6
248/254 601/607 112.5 w1.6
248/254 605/607 110 w/1.6

Here is the one I like the best.
248/254 605/607 113 w/1.6

Let me know which cam you would run in your 396 or if you have a 396 what you are currently running.

1997bird

iTrader: (2)

Here is a cam that I was playing with for a customers 396, useing my Dynomation program.

286/294 Adv. Duration
246/254 @.050" Duration
.592"/.592" lift w/1.6 rockers
LSA 113*
ICL 109*

Peak HP should be at 6500-6600 rpm.

speed_demon24

iTrader: (6)

Unless you really know what you are doing I would look for profession help for a cam for your combo if you really want it to run how it should.

FASTFATBOY

iTrader: (23)

A 500 rwhp hydraulic cammed 396...seems like a tall order to me, very tall with a stock intake and 58mm throttlebody.


You, to my knowledge, would be the first to achieve that.


David

Speed Density

iTrader: (38)

With a massive cam, 227s and an M6 you might get close.

That is again a 'tall order' as stated by David.

Toplessghost97

Yeah guys I called around to a couple of place and tried to get some suggestions on what size HR to use or will I have to go SR. I talked to some one a Cam Motion and he gve me these specs 241/246 592595 112. He also tried to talk me out of using the 227 AFR's for my application, but its a whole lot of guys running those same heads and I know for a fact, and can be used.

1997bird

iTrader: (2)

Why not use the new AFR 210's? Their new Eliminator's smoke the old 227 comp port heads and would give you better port velocity.

Toplessghost97

Never heard of 210 Eliminator's? I don't want to use AFR 210's because I'm afriad they want move enough air. That is the #1 thing when it comes to engine building how well you can move air through an engine and that is the major problem when it come to LT1 and the original small block. The more cubes you got, the more air and fuel it needs.

Dave J

iTrader: (2)

get the 210`s

I am running the old AFR 210`s(new ones are way better flow) and I figure I am about 580 fwhp but I know there is more power to be found in this motor
I cant see you making 500 rwhp with a hr cam

Toplessghost97

I thought about not getting AFR's at all and driving on down to Concord, NC and picking up a set of 215 Trick Flow's from Advance Induction. I got a friend that runs AI heads on his 383.

1997bird

iTrader: (2)

I know cylinder head flow numbers don't always tell to whole story, but they do give a good indication of how they will perform. Here are a few links for you:

http://airflowresearch.com/210sbc_lt4.php

http://www.totalengineairflow.com/pr...gmhead/tfslt1/

http://www.advancedinduction.com/AiProductsLTx.html

The 210 Eliminators will move more than enough air for your 396, that will not be your choking point in your engine build. I would also recommend that you read up on how port velocity is also a key ingrediant in making your best engine efficency. If you had your motor running at 4500-7500+ rpm continously for all out racing, then I might buy a set of 227's. You seem to want to keep this a lower rpm (6400-6800 rpm) street/strip motor, you will make more HP & TQ with the 210's than the 227's. I do build alot of race and street/strip motors here locally. I have spent alot of time reading and learning as much as I can. For your goals I would spend a little more time doing the same, that way you can make the most efficent motor you can with your purchases. In my opinion it is better to wait a little bit, than rush into a purchase and then have to re-buy parts that match later.

NightTrain66

iTrader: (7)

the advantage of the 227 is the offset rocker and larger coss section at the PR pinch. This will allow the HP #'s to peak at a higher RPM with the same cama dn hang on longer past the peak.

There will be a higher velocity with the 210's because the air at the PR pinch is moving faster and will reach sonic choke sooner.

Veliocity is NOT something you want to be as high as possible. Velocity is something you wanna control and keep as constant as possible while keeping the velocity #'s in a sweet spot.

227 is the right choice but you really need to find someone that knows cams and have them design a cam for you.

Lloyd

96redcamaro

iTrader: (1)

I would listen to this guy

1997bird

iTrader: (2)

I know that you know more than I do on this nature of things, but I do have a question for you. On the Gen III 402's (and larger) they are useing the AFR 205 heads with great success. These heads have a high velocity port, why do they seem to work so well? Just a question, no malice intended here, just wanted to know what to look for.

NightTrain66

iTrader: (7)

They can work well because they have the right venturi diameter, good valve job, have a nice cross section measurement over the shortside to keep the air stable. The one place that ANY 23 degree SB Chevy head can use help is more cross section at the PR pinch to make this are larger and make the port have a more constant cross section from the PR pinch to the shortside while straiteneing the wall from the PR pinch to that side of the port.

The runner volume is just a bi product of getting the rest of the port shaped right and certain measurements in certain areas. I have alot of B body customers with 205+ runner volumes running 11 second time slips with great low and mid range power using mid 220 duration cams. The larger you make certain restriction areas to slow the air down and remain stable in these areas, the milder cam you can use and still make the same top end HP # with more low and mid range TQ. Most are amazed about how low the duration is on the cams that I do for customers.

The larger measurements in these areas will end up having a larger runner volume compared to a port that is shaped the exact same BUT smaller in these areas but that doesn't mean all larger runner volume heads will be better than a smaller one. The extra material needs to come from these restriction areas and still keep the port shaped right. Removing material just to end up with a larger runner volume is NOT the same thing.

A stock LT1 is 1.80" at the PR pinch, An average ported et of LT1 heads is 1.95-2.0" and I get a 2.10-2.15" measurement on my LT1 heads depending on casting thickness and core shift.

The AFR SBC 210's have a 2.10" PR pinch and the stock LS1 has a 2.10" PR pinch for comparison.

Moats SBC AFR 220's that are hand ported will end up being about 2.35" and a ported LS1 head can end up being 2.30 to 2.50" in this area. The SBFord heads can be opened this large also and that is why the SB Chevy really has a hard time comparing to SB Ford and LS1 head flow figures and HP #'s with out using off set rockers.

You are not gonna get this area too large on a 23 degree head with out moving the PR over and using off set rockers. It is possible to get one too large for a MILD set up but anything near what is mentioned here is still not gonna get too large for a set up like this.

You have probably figured out that a good running set up is a good running set up regardless and even a swap to some larger or smaller heads would still end up being a good running set up.

Back to back testing with the head change being the ONLY variable is the only way to see how heads compare so even if a AFR 205 runs well, how far off would a TEA, TFS, TSP, Dart, etc head be. If it is a good working set up (cam selection, complimenting parts, etc) it will make good power anyway. If it is a good running car (light weight, good 60 ft, etc) it will be fast regardless.

You might find a few HP difference in the heads from all of these compared but all in all, the car will still be with in 1 tenth and 1-2 MPH with each other. Not the 60 RWHP and 7-10 tenths like some wouyld have you believe.

Lloyd

-PEPE-

iTrader: (10)

Topless you have some great feedback here already, but my $.02 worth is I'd run a custom grind solid roller matched to your car/engine specs if you want to hit the 500rwhp N/A arena and that includes doing a badass setup of heads and all the turkey dinner trimmings associated with hitting 500 to the ground, takes a lot to get there and a lot to hold it together. More importantly IMO is what your track goals are.

On that note I know of one friend on the east coast who used a hyd cam on his 383, it was just a mild street friendly stroker setup and very dependabe for his goals, he wasn't all out to make dyno power or hitting 10's blah blah blah. You can run a hyd cam but the power you want throws you in another direction parts wise.

There is always the nitrous route with a mild setup, something to think about ....then again there is the nitrous route with a monster setup too

1997bird

iTrader: (2)

Thank you for the informitive post Lloyd!!

Shane

NightTrain66

iTrader: (7)

no problem,

I agree with PEPE, alot of people are chasing RWHP #'s but do not realize what it takes as far as ALL THE parts to see 500 RWHP or have a car that will work well with a set up like that (LOTS of gear, stall, light weight, etc).

more importantly is what are the ET goals of the car. My car weights 3760 with me in it and with a 3200 stall and 3.55 gears it will run 7.17 in the 1/8 @ 96 MPH and a full 1/4 mile pass should be in the 11.2-11.3 range with a 1.60 60 ft.

It is a 383 with a hyd roller in the 230 duration range. Still made 436 RWHP wich is pretty good for an A4 and stall. Great street manors and still runs hard at the track for such a heavy car using mild gear and stall.

I could give the same heads and cam to 5 different people and end up with results anywhere from 390-465 RWHP depending on trans type and complimenting parts used, how much tuining is done, etc.

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

I'm in Orlando right now (at the PRI tradeshow) so dont have alot of time to eloborate. The 210 Eliminator heads are tailor made for this application....if you can swing the Comp version there is even more flow with minimal increase in cross section but no doubt the street package (still 100% CNC ported) is the value play. If you want all the money though, the Comp will flow a little more and make a little more power.

The volume and cross sectional area is perfect for a 400 inch street/strip application. Honestly if it was mainly a street car and you were looking for some great low end snap and throttle response, the 195's would be a good choice...the power difference wouldnt be a large as you might think because the 195's are extremely impressive for the size. If you didnt have much lift in the cam the 195's make even more sense (in primarily a street driven application).

Good luck....call me at AFR next week when I return if you would like to discuss this in more detail. (I would give the 195 Comp some serious thought....the same flow as a 210 street head with 15 less cc's....once again that would make for a killer street package).

Tony

rocket22

iTrader: (2)

I would think a 396 with HYD roller would make 500hp and not break a sweat doing it, I think Golen has a 475hp 396 with hyd roller

I'm looking at doing a 355, and would like to end up close to 500hp. I'm looking a the AFR 195, comp ported, 11.1 comp, and a lt4 intake, cam to me doesn't matter, I'm used to adjusting valves