LT1 vs LS1
12-22-2007, 07:39 PM
#181
11 Second Club
And I'm not even from Wisconson. But I am from Chicago where we are taught at birth to hate the cheeseheads up in Green Bay.
But I have to admit that Brett Farve is impressing me as much as 11.1 @ 119 did. He should be done and washed up but here he is lighting it up and giving Dallas a run for thier money in the NFC.
Ok enough football. Now back to the LS1/LT1 thing
12-22-2007, 08:34 PM
#182
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I love my LT1 and i wouldnt trade it for anything. Plus its a 96 SS and those are hard to come by as is. My mom just got a 02 Z Ls1 and its quick (headers and my custom made catback) and i like it but at the end of the day all that matters is that your happy with your car. I always like to think, you can make anything fast so it just depends on the body style. Cause if mustang guys were wanting to just go fast then they would have got an LS1, but they like the look of their car thats why they have it.
12-22-2007, 08:37 PM
#183
Where is your link?????????
I gave you one showing the LT1 cam only record is 11.1 @ 119. Show me something concrete and I'll believe you. Until then..........
The record stands at 11.1 @ 119.
..... doesn't change the fact that the LT1 record currently stands at 11.1 and the LS1 record is 10.2.
I gave you one showing the LT1 cam only record is 11.1 @ 119. Show me something concrete and I'll believe you. Until then..........
The record stands at 11.1 @ 119.
..... doesn't change the fact that the LT1 record currently stands at 11.1 and the LS1 record is 10.2.
. Lt1s have been in the 10's stock heads for YEARS. Of course that is with 4.88+ gearing, a lot of stall, and ~3200 pounds...but those 1.3 or quicker 60' times are insane. I'll use LS1techs local Stock Eliminator participant fanatic GIZMO again...from back in '05!:
Originally Posted by GIZMO
Dial...10.51
60'...1.355
330...4.188
1/8...6.614
MPH...101.03
1000...8.720
1/4...10.510
MPH...122.36
60'...1.355
330...4.188
1/8...6.614
MPH...101.03
1000...8.720
1/4...10.510
MPH...122.36
So stop trying to use times that are not posted, not official and not verifiable. Because if we are playing that game then who's to say someone in a LS1 hasn't secretly ran in the 9's cam only? Then we can change the argument over high 10's vs high 9's. Either way I win that debate.
LS1's have been in the 9's stock headed. Just because they do not make a forum account does not mean they do not exist 
Since you love forums so much though, here are a few quick picks from a minute or two of searching - pay close attention to some of the dates - this is no new discovery!
What is a Stock Eliminator LT1?...
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....7&postcount=27
10.7's in a HEAVY(3400+) "stocker" LT1 firebird? Sure
http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...ips/index.html
...and a look into LT1's in Stock Eliminator Racing. Surely CHP would not lie about an LT1's performance?
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...nfo/index.html
I can go on, but dont want to waste my time. Mid 10's with unported heads is COMMON for LT1 cars under strict NHRA stock class rules - stock TB, unported heads, no trans brake, stock lift cam, etc.
With more lenient rules they would all be bottom 10's/high 9's cam only.
12-22-2007, 08:47 PM
#184
Times and rules for NHRA stock eliminator LT1 F bodies are REAL, those cars DO run mid 10's with nothing but a cam, a stock LIFT cam at that. You can believe it or not. Dont make two ***** to me...because you want to stick your head in the sand on the subject and choose to think we are SOMEHOW fabricating what a NHRA stock class LT1 is capable of is YOUR problem.
Go to a regional points event and see for yourself.
FOr the record, Tom Bishop in an A/FI 97 firebird holds the record in that class with a 10.38
He aint on no message board, he is a professional racer.
PUCK, you forgot to let him in on the fact that most cars in EFI run a 30x9 tire...only 9 inches wide and tote the front wheels
David
Go to a regional points event and see for yourself.
FOr the record, Tom Bishop in an A/FI 97 firebird holds the record in that class with a 10.38
He aint on no message board, he is a professional racer.
PUCK, you forgot to let him in on the fact that most cars in EFI run a 30x9 tire...only 9 inches wide and tote the front wheels
David
Last edited by FASTFATBOY; 12-22-2007 at 08:52 PM.
12-23-2007, 07:42 AM
#185
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my insurance is $60/mo liability only. i'm 21. my buddy who just bought the 02 z28 is 24 and he pays $123/mo full coverage. he is paying for the car through a finance company and he pays an extra $200 a year to them so that if it is totaled the remaining ammount of his loan is paid in full. so technically he doesnt have to have full coverage if he totaled it the loan would be paid off but he would lose his equity.
12-23-2007, 08:54 AM
#186
What "record"??? I have already stated many times that the world is a bigger place then online mesage boards - which is all you seem to bring up . Lt1s have been in the 10's stock heads for YEARS. Of course that is with 4.88+ gearing, a lot of stall, and ~3200 pounds...but those 1.3 or quicker 60' times are insane. I'll use LS1techs local Stock Eliminator participant fanatic GIZMO again...from back in '05!:
Guess what? THEY HAVE. Thank you for proving my point on your close minded view of "Message Board Racing" LS1's have been in the 9's stock headed. Just because they do not make a forum account does not mean they do not exist
Since you love forums so much though, here are a few quick picks from a minute or two of searching - pay close attention to some of the dates - this is no new discovery!
What is a Stock Eliminator LT1?...
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....7&postcount=27
10.7's in a HEAVY(3400+) "stocker" LT1 firebird? Sure
http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...ips/index.html
...and a look into LT1's in Stock Eliminator Racing. Surely CHP would not lie about an LT1's performance?
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...nfo/index.html
I can go on, but dont want to waste my time. Mid 10's with unported heads is COMMON for LT1 cars under strict NHRA stock class rules - stock TB, unported heads, no trans brake, stock lift cam, etc.
With more lenient rules they would all be bottom 10's/high 9's cam only.
. Lt1s have been in the 10's stock heads for YEARS. Of course that is with 4.88+ gearing, a lot of stall, and ~3200 pounds...but those 1.3 or quicker 60' times are insane. I'll use LS1techs local Stock Eliminator participant fanatic GIZMO again...from back in '05!:Guess what? THEY HAVE. Thank you for proving my point on your close minded view of "Message Board Racing"
LS1's have been in the 9's stock headed. Just because they do not make a forum account does not mean they do not exist Since you love forums so much though, here are a few quick picks from a minute or two of searching - pay close attention to some of the dates - this is no new discovery!
What is a Stock Eliminator LT1?...
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....7&postcount=27
10.7's in a HEAVY(3400+) "stocker" LT1 firebird? Sure
http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...ips/index.html
...and a look into LT1's in Stock Eliminator Racing. Surely CHP would not lie about an LT1's performance?
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...nfo/index.html
I can go on, but dont want to waste my time. Mid 10's with unported heads is COMMON for LT1 cars under strict NHRA stock class rules - stock TB, unported heads, no trans brake, stock lift cam, etc.
With more lenient rules they would all be bottom 10's/high 9's cam only.
12-23-2007, 11:08 AM
#187
11 Second Club
What "record"??? I have already stated many times that the world is a bigger place then online mesage boards - which is all you seem to bring up . Lt1s have been in the 10's stock heads for YEARS. Of course that is with 4.88+ gearing, a lot of stall, and ~3200 pounds...but those 1.3 or quicker 60' times are insane. I'll use LS1techs local Stock Eliminator participant fanatic GIZMO again...from back in '05!:
. Lt1s have been in the 10's stock heads for YEARS. Of course that is with 4.88+ gearing, a lot of stall, and ~3200 pounds...but those 1.3 or quicker 60' times are insane. I'll use LS1techs local Stock Eliminator participant fanatic GIZMO again...from back in '05!:http://www.teamjegs.com/thecars/superstock.asp
Specifically this statement in the article:
Strict rules apply to Super Stock engines, which must use factory matching blocks, cylinder heads, and carburetors. Engine modifications are limited to the addition of aftermarket intake manifolds, exhaust headers, and valve train components. Mildly ported cylinder heads are also permitted.
Mildly ported heads are permitted? Then I did some research on Gizmo and found this:
I went 10.7's with a stock short block N/A, but it didn't last long. When the stock rods let loose there isn't much left. I would highly recomend aftermarket pistons and rods. The cam spec. was .478/.490 and 256/266 @ .050. I was running mildly ported LT4 heads and intake with a stock throttle body. Crunching the numbers, it would have run very low tens if it had survived long enough to get the bugs out.
Quite frankly there are a number of trick pieces you can use in a stock eliminator cylinder head and still remain legal from a racing perspective.
That was a quote from this link that you provided me:
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...nfo/index.html
Don't get me wrong. I found the links very imformative and most impressive. But there is a reason the searches on cam only record didn't show guys like Gizmo. Because they are not 100% GM built untouched LT1 heads.
12-23-2007, 11:26 AM
#188
Your first quote is about "SUPER STOCK" NOT Stock, big difference. In Stock eliminator, you can disassemble the heads and do certain valve jobs. You CANNOT port the heads. The valve jobs will enhance the flow a bit (I'm not sure how much) The cams MUST retain stock lift and duration specs, however, how they get to those numbers is open. Basically they ramp up insanely fast and hold the valve open as long as possible. Very hard on parts. I would say that it is safe to assume that these guys could bolt a bone-stock untouched head on their car and still be well into the tens. I'm sure if they were open to ANY camshaft on their car using a bone-stock head, they would be at their current E.T.'s or even lower.Here are some times that I found:
Bud Rowe 1995 Z28 B/FIA 10.471 -1.229 under index
Russell Fox 1997 Z28 B/FIA 10.583 -1.117 under index
Bud Rowe 1995 Z28 B/FIA 10.471 -1.229 under index
Russell Fox 1997 Z28 B/FIA 10.583 -1.117 under index
12-23-2007, 11:34 AM
#189
11 Second Club
Your first quote is about "SUPER STOCK" NOT Stock, big difference. In Stock eliminator, you can disassemble the heads and do certain valve jobs. You CANNOT port the heads. The valve jobs will enhance the flow a bit (I'm not sure how much) The cams MUST retain stock lift and duration specs, however, how they get to those numbers is open. Basically they ramp up insanely fast and hold the valve open as long as possible. Very hard on parts. I would say that it is safe to assume that these guys could bolt a bone-stock untouched head on their car and still be well into the tens. I'm sure if they were open to ANY camshaft on their car using a bone-stock head, they would be at their current E.T.'s or even lower.Here are some times that I found:
Bud Rowe 1995 Z28 B/FIA 10.471 -1.229 under index
Russell Fox 1997 Z28 B/FIA 10.583 -1.117 under index
Bud Rowe 1995 Z28 B/FIA 10.471 -1.229 under index
Russell Fox 1997 Z28 B/FIA 10.583 -1.117 under index
So the cam only record still remains 11.1 @ 119 unless someone can issue me a link that describes a LT1 car going faster under the following peramiters:
GM built LT1 motor (no LT4's, 383's, ect)
GM issued and unported/untouched LT1 heads
No power adders
As far as I see the times to beat are still 11.1 for LT1's and 10.2 for LS1's.
12-23-2007, 11:49 AM
#190
What I was trying to say is that these guys COULD put a set of bone-stock heads on their LT1's and open up the cam selection to allow ANY cam, and their E.T.'s would most likely be the same if not better. What sort of flow numbers do you think their "stock eliminator LT1" heads are flowing? I bet it isn't much more than a bone-stock set of heads. I much higher lift/duration cam would make up the difference.
12-23-2007, 11:53 AM
#191
Those are the fastest times listed here on LS1tech, true. Both are very impressive, but I don't think anyone (LT1 guys) has gone to the lengths that the LS1 guys have as far as setting the record. The LS1 record SI car is a totally gutted drag car, 1 kirkey and a steering wheel. Shon's (LT1) car is about 250-300lbs heavier.
12-23-2007, 11:55 AM
#192
What I was trying to say is that these guys COULD put a set of bone-stock heads on their LT1's and open up the cam selection to allow ANY cam, and their E.T.'s would most likely be the same if not better. What sort of flow numbers do you think their "stock eliminator LT1" heads are flowing? I bet it isn't much more than a bone-stock set of heads. I much higher lift/duration cam would make up the difference.
A valvejob to him is not stock, which is all an LT1 stocker is allowed......he's a dumb ***, leave it be.
David
12-23-2007, 12:05 PM
#193
11 Second Club
What I was trying to say is that these guys COULD put a set of bone-stock heads on their LT1's and open up the cam selection to allow ANY cam, and their E.T.'s would most likely be the same if not better. What sort of flow numbers do you think their "stock eliminator LT1" heads are flowing? I bet it isn't much more than a bone-stock set of heads. I much higher lift/duration cam would make up the difference.
If it was so easy to run 10's cam only then why isn't Frank95Z deep in the 10's? Why has no one over all these years done it? Records are always a milestone that attact people. Surely someone has attempted to break that record before. I know for a fact someone (probably more then one) is trying to break Shons 11.8 bolt on record as we speak. They may or may not do it but someone is always thinking of ways to be a record holder.
My position has remained unchanged. If you modify the heads to gain an edge then they are no longer stock. Under the conditions of this debate the record is still 11.1 @ 119.
Get one of these stock or super stock guys to strap on a set of untouched factory LT1 heads onto a factory built LT1 motor with any cam they like and then get back to me with the results. If they make a 10.xx pass then I'll give him props and we can alter the discussion at that time.
Until then the LT1 and LS1 records remain nearly a second apart with the LS1 in the lead. And considering the better flowing head design of the LS1 it's as it should be.
12-23-2007, 12:26 PM
#194
Get one of these stock or super stock guys to strap on a set of untouched factory LT1 heads onto a factory built LT1 motor with any cam they like and then get back to me with the results. If they make a 10.xx pass then I'll give him props and we can alter the discussion at that time.
12-23-2007, 12:48 PM
#195
11 Second Club
I'm 100% positive that would happen if either of the guys I listed were to do that. I'm also pretty damn sure neither one of them gives a hoot to try it too. THERE AIN'T NO MONEY FOR THEM to win being on top of a list on an internet message board. Make them a small wager, maybe they'll go for it.
But with all this side tracking of NHRA stock and super stock did anything really change? Is the LS1 still not faster stock vs stock? Is the LS1 still not faster bolt on for bolt on? Is the worlds fastet LS1 still not faster then the worlds fastest LT1?
Is the LS1 still not a better motor design created by GM to be an upgrade to the LT1?
I don't know about you but I gotta say yes to all of the above.
12-23-2007, 02:46 PM
#198
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But with all this side tracking of NHRA stock and super stock did anything really change? Is the LS1 still not faster stock vs stock? Is the LS1 still not faster bolt on for bolt on? Is the worlds fastet LS1 still not faster then the worlds fastest LT1?
Is the LS1 still not a better motor design created by GM to be an upgrade to the LT1?
I don't know about you but I gotta say yes to all of the above.
Its all about cash for power.
I know guys with LT1 cars that will dust your 12.3 LS1 and they have far less money into thier ride.
Thats what its all about.
My former classmate paid 11K for his 70K mile LS1 a couple years ago.
I paid 4400 for my 82K LT1.
Geee, do ya think I can make my LT1 faster with the extra 6K? :
