I can attest that EFI COnnection is a stand up company and has gone above and beyond to help me with this conversion. I received better support from him than I did from several other board sponsers (hell, I have not heard back from one in over a month after leaving several messages). Mike was willing to drive 9 hours to SE Wisconsin to see my LT1 run on the dyno in our shop, now that's commitment to your product!!!
I will admit, this is a pricey swap, no doubt about it, and it is not for everyone. If you are intimidated with wiring or tuning, continue running your stock LT1 system and using your handheld tuner!!!
As far as bitching about pricing 95 TA - The Beast, why don't you go out and design a system, get it produced with superior fit and finish, and then you come up with a price and let's see how comparable you are, this is America, you can do it!!!
In my opinion, this is one of the bigger things to hit the LT1 scene in years. I know the stock opti is good for getting you into the 9's, but I have had two of them (one reman, one AC Delco) that were not able to get me home because they took a crap. The only pieces in EFI COnnections system that are not avaliable at the dealer are the cam trigger and target housing and crank reluctor, but these pieces are a one time buy, unless your motor gets hit by a mortar round or something, they will never go bad.
I was waiting for someone to bring up the sponsor thing here, but are there any supporting vendors that offer the setup??????? If there was, I can see pushing the issue, but there isn't and after reading some peoples comments, I am suprised that anyone would want to sell parts to people anymore!!!
Sorry for the rant, I am just tired of seeing a person getting beat up over trivial things!!!

Mike

 

Are you guys all really that far out of touch?

There are tons of aftermarket EFI solutions for our cars, as well as anything else you may want to fuel inject. Honestly, they include coil-per-plug solutions, support for multi-bar boost and even wideband integration for auto-tuning...

Don't go sounding like this is revolutionary or even insurmountable... Most people just choose an aftermarket solution that allows for more flexibility and features...

The biggest draw to this is low-cost. PERIOD. With an extra $800 harness originally being touted as damn near 'required' it was totally out of the range of a viable solution as for a few hundred more you get a complete aftermarket that is totally flexible. For the $525 for the price of conversion parts, and about $200-400 for the LS1 parts and a few hours of doing your own harness it becomes a much more viable 'lower-cost' way of going about things... But that also assumes you have the LS1 tuning software/hardware and the ability to handle that as well, otherwise you are much better off going with an aftermarket that gives you everything in a single package...

I jumped in here because I saw a marketing-tact being driven on this thing, ie someone wanted to profiteer by 'steering' others towards buying thier solution. I ALWAYS have an issue with that, as this isn't some sort of revolutionary way of going about things... It has been done before, about 2-3 years ago, but at that time LS1 componentry was still a premium, as was the software/hardware (and for reference on that setup they opted for the LS1 firing order so there was no PCM issues to work around, and for reference, that firing order actually has been in use in race setups for over 20 years, even before EFI)... Since then the LS1 stock stuff has dropped in price from the slavage yards and I will say it is somewhat innovative to use the stock LT1 OBDII reluctor location to achieve it... To that bravo, and if you notice I never bitched about the price of admission to buy those 'custom' parts... For that solution, price them as he sees fit...

The biggest issue here is the outright lack of coming right out and explaining how the two harnesses integrate, or at the very least giving a quick view of what goes where, and that it seems like such a 'hack' in regards to no base-tune being done properly, and by that I mean a proper custom OS module to fix the firing order issue, which can be accomplished... You would think that EFI-C would be clamouring to get someone to help do just that, as the rest is a hack... And to clarify, to get something to work is not necessarily the 'right' way of doing things... To offer all aspects of this ironed out and valid is the 'right' way... It is obvious EFI-C is good at hacking things together, but not at offering a proper 'solution'... It is also obvious they are looking to profiteer by people buying THIER harness, thus the ONLY reason they didn't come right out in the beginning and explain what is needed and how to do it yourself.

I just think there is too much short-sightedness here, as well as a bunch of hoopla and knee-jerk reactions to things like 'get rid of the opti'... Fact is the MAJORITY of opti issues are due to shitty after-market rebuilt optisparks as well as compromised seals, installation problems as well as poorly chosen ignition upgrades. Just because you can replace something doesn't necessarily mean it's broken...

About the only real reason anyone can really justify this conversion in the first place is a) they want 2-3 bar boost speed density tuning or any of the other custom OSs available, b) they want >7000 RPM tuning, c) they have an investment in LS1 tuning hardware/software and don't want to buy LT1 stuff, d) they want to be different and sound 'cool' because they have an LS1 computer running things, or e) they have been snowed into thinking that the optispark is the root of all evil with the LT1...

Honestly, with all the negatives (loss of ABS/TCS, hacked firing order issues and misfire detection, coil mounting issues, cost/expense/hassle) it is amazing that this many people are THAT interested in this... Honestly, outside of a race app, boost, >7000 high-revs, what is everyones real motivation to do this??? If you want to argue the whole 'it is hotrodding to do the mod', then great, just realize it isn't an answer... Point being that there are tons of aftermarket solutions near, or within reach of the total cost to do this...

Again, in the exact-fit application this is a good solution... For someone like me who has the hardware/software to do all the tuning, along with one of my own cars being a heavily boost high-hp car you would think I would be one of the first to want to put this on, but really I already have a Delteq, have tuned the LT1 PCM for the amount of boost I am running, and really have absoloutly no way to justify this conversion and I am in the 'ideal' category of those that would want to do it... Yet it is still just not worth it...

I only bring this up as those that want to criticize me for pointing out the obvious holes in EFI-C marketing tactics are out of line in trying to make it sound like this is some sort of technological breakthrough... Innovative in using a stock location for a stock-like solution, but far from revolutionary... And I am disappointment that a company would come out so strongly with a 'here it all is', but you 'have to buy it all form us' and you are 'on your own'... I just can't stand stupidity like that... It would have been just as easy to say 'we developed these parts, here is what we have, here is all the *info needed to do it yourself*, maybe we can get someone to work out the details as we can't, but we are here to help everyone'... That is how you sell a product, not with arrogant stupidity and not by not being a LS1Tech paying vendor... I have a real problem with people that come off as trying to make a buck by being protectionistic and controlling... It is obvious they aren't going to be the ones to work out the PCM tuning issues, and without that the rest isn't a complete solution... Any way you slice it, it is a hack until that is done...

And to teh rest that say I am being out of line, that would ONLY be the case if EFI-C was a paying vendor here... Otherwise THEY are out of line and totally at the mercy of everyone that posts here to be picked apart as we all see fit... That is the beauty of having an opinion and the freedom of speech... And if you notice I am attacking thier tact, thier demeanor and thier greed... I already said bravo in regards to the machining and engineering done so far...

 

I think there is a misunderstanding of the progress of this product development and the extrent we have chosen to take it.

In 2007 we set out to bring drive-by-wire support using the LS1 PCM to the early small block Chevy engines. Specifically we had in mind to use the LS1 PCM and Corvette calibration.

In early 2008 we began development of our 24x crank reluctor. Soon after we had a working prototype RamJet 350 engine running coil per cylinder with the Corvette PCM and calibration.

Several LT1 guys spoke up and showed interest in LS1 PCM control. We proved this would work with our 24x reluctor and posted a video.

This thread was started.

We set out to provide an easy cam sensor bolt on solution. Along the way a few have requested hand made housings to participate in testing.

Last week we received the first batch of production cam sensor housings.

If you enjoy seeing the progression of this system for the LT1, I can continue to provide information. Please do not criticize EFI Connection for the items associated with the conversion that are either not yet available or that we have chosen not to provide.

This is an opportunity for EFILive and HPTuners to provide a custom OS.

This is an opportunity for guys out there who rework used engine harnesses to serve the LT1 community in that way.

This is an opportunity for the DIYers to document details for converting the LT1 harness to LS1 PCM control.

This is an opportunity for the aftermarket develop a TPI/LT1 drive-by-wire throttle body.

We've always thought of this 24x reluctor (and now related items) to be for the DIYers and shops qualified for working with GM fuel injection systems. If the LS1 PCM approach is not for you, then there are many other aftermarket systems to consider. I'm not familiar with all that is on the market, but I have not yet seen a plug and play engine harness for the 93-97 f-body on the market. You may find that even the most expensive aftermarket fuel management systems will only offer a universal type harness that will require effort to work in the 93-97 f-body.

 

You said you are in the Milwaukee, WI area, correct. I am in Burlington, about 25 miles south, you are more than welcome to take a look at my 'hack" EFI Connection setup so you can actually see it before you ridicule it!
I have a feeling you would be suprised.
There are no 'custom' calibrations used for this, I am using an '02 Camaro cal with some revisions to the spark and PE tables to make it better. I actually had my LT1 running on a bone stock '02 Suburban 5.3 calibration(with VATS deleted) on the dyno stand, and suprisingly it ran very well, minus about 30 trouble codes.
AS far as the firing order swap, that is as simple as 4 wires being moved at the PCM to fire the coils and injectors at the proper times. There is a setting in the cal. for injector bank assignment, but if you run in open loop (which alot of people do)you wouldn't have to mess with the cal (even though it only takes about 2 minutes to fix it).
I fall into the 'it is neat, let's do it' crowd when it comes to the LS1 PCM swap. My truck (see sig) has no benefit to running this setup, except reliability. I am an ASE master and L1 certified auto tech with 16 years in the field (15 of it wrenching), so I do know what I am doing in relation to installing the Optispark units. My truck had 2 fail last summer (one reman, one Delco/Delphi) and both left me stranded away from home and had to haul it back to the shop (thank god we have a flatbed), both had hi data rate pickup problems. I had to purchase the LS1 tuning software anyways for my Vega, so I decided to go with EFI Connections setup. This way I can gain some tuning experience on a bone stock engine before tackling my Vega calibration (which is not stock).
If you have the know how, all you need is a barebones kit from EFI Connection, you can make the stock harness work. It took me about 1 hour to mount the coils on my LT1 valve covers and would of probably took about another 5 hours to repin the harness and add the necessary extra wiring to make it all work. I chose to go with a stand alone harness because my setup is a swap, but I ran it for well over a year on a hacked up Roadmaster harness. It is very doable for the DIY guy, you do not have to use his harness to make it work, I do not know where that came from.
While this setup may not be for you (95 TA - The Beast), it may be right for others. Can you see the positive benefit for anyone else? I chose it mainly because it was 'neat' and something different
As far as the $3000 for 'sponsor fees', someone is making some dinero here!!! WOW!!!!

Sorry for the Rant, I just had to voice my opinion...... again!!!

Mike

 

We have the following reasons for only providing a new engine harness...

• For the past 5 years we have only built new engine harnesses.
• Providing specific how-to instructions for reworking an engine harness is a liability...even if our information is 100% accurate. It opens the door to potential litigation. It is our choice to limit our liability in this way.
• There are five years of harness variations that would have to be thoroughly documented. We do not have time to freely summarize all of the information. We don't have a cheat sheet when building these harnesses. We print off and study the schematics specific to that harness build. So if we shared our approach, GM would surely have a problem with the free distribution of their schematics.
• Free harness rework support demands a lot of time away from serving customers who have paid for and are waiting for products.
• Adding these plug and play 24x LT1 harnesses to our product line already adds hours to our work day. Choosing to add another employee to handle the work is more complicated than just having more available work.

 

Actually, if you notice I wasn't ridiculing your work at all... I will say, being a ASE master tech you should know damn well the optispark is quite a reliable unit, thus using this as the only excuse to replace it is pretty far fetched... You even admitted yourself it is a 'cool' conversion not a 'necessary' one... Which is all fine and good, just glad it is out there in plain view in regards to why this conversion is even done...

I know exactly where Burlington is, having worked there in the mid 90s for almost 4 years... Never made it to the Chocolate Festival, but usually had an item or two brought back to the office for me...

The 'hack' part is not having a complete solution. You are fine and well getting your car running the way it is, but it is not a 'packaged' deal for the masses, which is what EFI-C was originally 'implying' with its peddling of it's 'custom harness'... I was making sure EVERYONE knew exactly what this is and how it works and what still needs to be done. I opened the door without as much finger pointing that this came out to be, but that was due to EFI-C looking at this from a purely profit standpoint, not a matter of them trying to provide the best solution for thier customers. If that where the case they would have a ton of info available and offer a ton more tech than what they eluded to. Sorry, having been around this industry for almost 20 years I have seen quite a bit of this 'quick make a buck and leave everyone else out to twist' thing go on with small companies, and if you aren't commited to making a solution, then partner with those that will... Just don't come around say you will ONLY offer a harness, hide the 'proprietary' info (such as the cam/reluctor sensor stuff), and then downplay it later when you are called out. It is obvious EFI-C thinks they should make a killing off doing this, but if that is so then FINISH the product... If not, then be somewhat humble about it and actually help by offering info, not hiding it and being obscure...

Oh, and like I said I can definitly see where a *complete* solution would really fit for certain setups. But for that to work fully it needs a custom OS to address the firing order issue, a custom calibration that is tweaked for LT1s as a baseline and in general needs all of the 'questions' answered... Including ABS/TCS and proper diagnostic codes... That is where I am referring to a 'hack'... Again, I would have expected EFI-C to come out and outline all of this when they started making parts and selling them...

As far as EFI-C being somewhat 'open' now, that is ONLY because I called them out on it. That much is obvious. And to clarify, I NEVER said they should provide ALL the wiring info. what they NEED to supply is the specific hookup info in regards to the parts they sell, mainly being the reluctor sensor and the cam sensor. They did not do this. They inferred a lot and still haven't given pin-details on those. For them to say where they go on the LS1 PCMs is trivial and far from ANYTHING they need to worry about getting sued over. But those two items *should* be all that is needed to allow you to work your own setup. So the arguement they would get sued is BS as they wouldn't have ot provide full schematics. I mean hell, they can OPENLY supply pinout info for repinning, as many others have done with thier aftermarket system (such as Accel/DFI, XFI, MSD, etc), so I know for FACT that is BS... Just stop the excuses and provide the info for the product you sell instead of trying to 'trick' people into buying your harness... Who said you have to answer e-mails about 'rework support'.. supply the pinouts and if people can't read them and figure it out, too bad... A simple disclaimer with the info will suffice...

Oh, and if the success of selling more products is that much of a 'hassle' then don't be in business... Most people won't complain if they need to add employees because thier sales volume increased. That bit of 'feel sorry for us' BS is just that BS... Your a business and suck it up. If you can't stay in business selling the products at the price you do, then don't... Just don't come on here and cry a river to people.

Oh, also in regards to the vendor fees, if you think it is too much, then why even frequent the board? Maybe there should be member fees as well if that is the case??? Fact of the matter is people are required to pay to peddle thier products on here. $3000 is nothing for a business, especially considering it is an expense. If you are running your business and your 'profitability' and 'writeoffs' with as many loopholes as you can and are viewing it that you just can't write it off, then you must not either a) be able to justify the expense for the sales volume, which means you shouldn't use the forum to try to sell in the first place or b) if the volume is sufficiently high that you can justify the expense and don't make it, it just means you are too greedy and stupid, because if the volume is high enough and you *should* have the writeoff, but can't usually means you are lying too much elsewhere on your taxes, as ANY business that can justify the marketing expense *should* have the tax liability to take the writeoff... All very simple and common sense here folks...

 

When does the criticism stop?

I already pointed out that the information you say is lacking has been available in this thread and elsewhere online before your rants. You, for no good reason, would like nothing less than to make me out to be a greedy, selfish, incompetent person. Your claims are full of holes and I will continue to be a helpful source of information in the forums. Regardless of your opinions.

 

I will admit, some opti units are 100% reliable. I just pulled and replaced a cap and rotor off a '96 Roadmaster Estate Wagon with 217,000 on the clock to cure a P0300 code, customer stated that this was the first cap and rotor the car ever had. Some units last forever, some make it two weeks. Why I did the swap was I got tired of walking. I was stranded twice because of defective optispark units and I feel that EFI Connections setup will be more reliable in the long run, and it is neat and different. How often does a magnetic crank and cam sensor go bad??? If you drop a coil on this setup, you just drive home on 7 cylinders, no biggie!
Mike @ EFI Connection has not hid any 'proprietary' info from me, just call him, he is a nice guy, he will tell you anything you need to know. He is not a greedy money hoarding monger that takes your cash and you never hear from again, that is very far from the truth. How often does a vendor that you brought a product from call you to see how your project is going???? Mike has called me twice so far to see how everything turned out, which caught me off guard as I did not expect it. I bought my EFI Live from another vendor here and wasn't sure if it would ever show up as I never get any follow up or even tracking info after the sale, that is the way alot of companies run their business these days!!!
Again, this swap is not for everyone. If you cannot read or access a couple of wiring diagrams that are widely avaliable on the internet, this is not for you. If you cannot tune, this is not for you. If you have more money than common sense, it is not for you!!! If you want a decent EFI and Coil on plug setup for a forgetten small block and have some mechanical knowledge, this is for you!!!
I was going to repin my LT1 harness, but decided to buy a new harness from EFI Connection because it makes for a cleaner install. At no time did EFI Connection twist my arm or coerce me into using their harness, he gave me the price for his harness, I thought about it for 2 days and bought the whole setup, and could of not been happier. Money is hard to come by for me, so I do not **** it away uselessly so made sure that this was the best setup for me!!! Yes, I could of fixed my Optispark, again.... but with an infant daughter that rides in the truck, I could not get myself to use the Opti setup again....
Mike @ EFI Connection is a stand up good guy, give him the credit he deserves!

BTW, if you are ever in Burlington again, let me know, I would like to meet you!!! I won't yell, I promise

Mike

 

No kidding!

If you don't want to spend the money for a new harness then don't. Just let them be, they are the ones who did the work to come up with a way to run a ls1 pcm in any chevy motor and distribute their system to everyone else.

95, you said it yourself, there are other means of a pcm, so quit complaining about this one and buy something else.

 

lol Geeze. I said it before The Beast, I'll say it again, until you can do better than EFI-C/Wildside you really have no room to complain.

I am in no way, shape or form affiliated with Wildside or EFI-C. I never heard of them before this, and I didn't even know it was a company doing this will more recently. I thought it was just a home-brew thing that caught on with a few people. My posting this info here was simply for the many of us who would like to ditch the Opti simply because we live in climates where the Opti can see lots of moisture. The only other option that would be relatively cheap was the LTCC or whatever it was called. Even that runs about the same price as Wildsides when everything is said and done. The other options are full blown race computers, which from my understanding require a fair bit of knowledge of tuning to get running good. I am a person who doesn't have that knowledge, only rudimentary at best. I would be able to figure out how to get the LT to run with the LS PCM, but I think that's about it. If it would come to doing a performance tune to it, I'd be a bit screwed. The big reason for people to do this is simply that there is better tuning software available, the computer has much better options for tuning and you gain Coil Packs.

So what are we looking at for a MegaSquirt? $1300 or so? EFI's is looking to be $525 for the package, and then what you'd still need (prices are local to me via car-part.com search engine, so obviously not the same for everyone) $35 for 03 1500 4.8L ECM, $10/coil WITH Warranty, "5.3L,AT,4X4,UNDER HOOD" wiring harness is $100 which will give you the ECM plugs, the Coil plugs, and all sensor plugs. Total $749, and I'm sure someone here would be willing to burn a tune into it off the forums here for a few bucks. I found a guy who burned me a chip for just the cost of shipping, so I don't think $50 would be hard to find someone to burn it. $800 total then. That's the same cost as the Delteq Coil Per Cyl package, but your'e still stuck with the LT1 computer.

I'm all for critiquing someone's product, but you're just bashing it all AND the person for doing it. So with that I ask you, what could you do better, and of the info I just provided, what makes doing it this way such a waste of money? And since you don't think it's 'right' to have to modify something to work, deeming it a "hack", then you're bashing every person who's running GEN I SBC heads/intakes in their car since they need mods. Go tell that to the dude running SBC 2.2 heads "Pff what a hacked motor, gosh" Let me know how that works out.

I personally don't have the money for this, but I'd do it if I had. It'll eliminate problems down the line and I'd have a GEN 2.5 SBC!

 

I would be interested in the near future, perhaps once someone has figured out how to keep abs and maybe has a decent tune out.

So will the pcm give better mpg because of timing advance? and also how much do you think it will lessen the gap between ls1 and lt1?

 

Completely irrelevant given the nature of the motor and the aftermarket. It's not the PCM that gives them more HP

 

lol well I didn't think it would give more hp, I but with better engine management the lt1 should have a bit more potential

 

Well, we haven't been held back in that regard. Anyone who pushed their LT1 passed what the stock PCM could do, just went with an aftermarket computer system. There aren't many that I know of who've pushed it THAT far. Really it's forced induction people who require that. I'm sure most of the heavy hitter LT1 guys here are still running the stock computer, as lots are still running the stock opti

 

So it's been verified that the ABS does not work at all?

Is there a specific reason why it won't work or a thought as to how it could work?
the ABS issue is the biggest reason keeping me from jumping on board.

 

You are one sad cynical dude!

 

I think the ABS 'should' work, I will check today to see if/how the ABS computer ties into the PCM

Mike

 

It's $800 for the parts then another $800 for a wiring harness so now you are at $1,600. That is with going to pull a apart to get the parts that cheap. JMO

 

Might want to re-read. The hard parts and sensors cost $550, plus the $800 if you want a brand new plug-n-play custom harness.

 

Vehicles Equipped with Traction Control and Anti Lock Brakes
There are three wires from the LT1 PCM to the EBTCM (electronic brake and traction control module).

1. Traction Control Active: This signal is not present with the LS1 PCM. It is either an input or output. I'm going to guess this is a signal from the EBTCM to let the LT1 PCM know that traction control is either ON or OFF. Does the EBTCM sense that this wire is connected to the PCM? I don't know.

2. Received Throttle Position: This signal is not present with the LS1 PCM. It is either a input or output. I'm going to guess this is a TPS signal from the LT1 PCM to the EBTCM. If that is true, I would only speculate that without a TPS signal the EBTCM will disable both ABS and Traction Control. Is this just a 0-5v TPS signal that could be borrowed from the blue wire on the TPS? I don't know.

3. Spark Retard Request: This signal may or may not exist with the LS1 PCM. Connector 2 (RED) on the LS1 PCM, cavity 53 is "Ignition Retard Signal". Will this be a compatible signal to the EBTCM? I don't know.

There is also a Serial Data Line (UART) attached to the EBTCM, Diagnostic Port, and LT1 PCM. The GM schematics do not explain what the function of the LT1 PCM is on this circuit. I would assume that this is used with a diagnostic tool for retrieving/resetting DTCs related to the EBTCM. Does the EBTCM expect this to be connected to the LT1 PCM? I don't know.

Vehicles NOT Equipped with Traction Control
According to the GM schematics, vehicles not equipped with traction control use no inputs from the LT1 PCM. Rather than an EBTCM controlling the ABS system, an “Electronic Brake Control Module” (EBCM) controls the ABS system. However, the Serial Data (UART) line is still attached to the EBCM, Diagnostic Port, and LT1 PCM. The GM schematics do not explain what the function of the LT1 PCM is on this circuit. The LS1 PCM schematics show no similar signal to take the place of the LT1 PCM. This circuit (CKT 800), is probably only used to retrieve/reset DTCs for the ABS system.

Let's say you run this UART signal to the diagnostic port and you connect an OBDII scan tool. Will the scan tool be able to retrieve LS1 PCM DTCs and LT1 ABS relate codes? I don't know.

While unrelated to this specific discussion, my 2000 Firehawk has an intermittent wheel speed sensor problem that, as a result, disables ABS and Traction Control. My concern is that if the LT1's EBTCM or EBCM are not completely happy (missing an input/output), they may disable the system for safety.