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Old 10-15-2008, 05:22 PM
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Default Retiring Eagles, Vipers and Hogs

Air Force Plans Massive, Early F-15, F-16 Retirements to Save $3.4 Billion

Oct. 14, 2008 -- The Air Force is planning dramatic cuts to its fighter force in fiscal year 2010 in an attempt to find $3.4 billion to bolster other combat aircraft, munitions inventories, ISR and manpower efforts, InsideDefense.com has learned.

In all, the service plans to retire 137 F-15s, 177 F-16s and nine A-10s in FY-10, according to internal Pentagon documents detailing the stand-down of Air Force jets in the 2010 program objective memorandum (POM). Pentagon acquisition chief John Young initialed the Aug. 27 document, which covers all of the services’ future program and budget plans, on Oct. 3, indicating he had reviewed it.

In all, more than 300 fighters will head to the boneyard. The number of jets being retired is significant, considering a typical fighter squadron is made up of between 18 and 26 aircraft, depending on the platform. It is unknown how this decision will impact the current size of fighter squadrons or whether those units will be decommissioned.

The document, obtained by InsideDefense.com, was compiled to answer Young’s questions about the services' POMs, which were turned in to the Office of the Secretary of Defense in August.

“There is some near-term (FY-10-14) risk taken by this move,” the document states, summing up the earlier-than-expected retirements of the F-15s, F-16s and A-10s. “However, our analysis shows the FY-10 POM smaller but modernized fighter force, when coupled with a robust bomber fleet, can effectively bridge the gap until the F-35 can be produced in required numbers (ramping to 110) and the F-22 can be modified to a common configuration.

“Without accelerating these retirements, we are left with a larger, less-capable force unable to penetrate anti-access environments,” it adds. “We must take advantage of this window of opportunity now to be better postured in the future.”

Senior Air Force officials have said they plan to increase F-35 Lightning II production over the next five years to address a potential fighter gap.

The retirements represent accelerations of seven years in the case of the F-15, six years for the F-16 and 11 years for the A-10, according to the document. The early retirement of the Eagles is expected to save the air service $2.2 billion, the Vipers $1.1 billion and the Warthogs $.1 billion.

“With these dollars, we funded required legacy modifications, manpower, munitions, and [Command, Control, Communications, Computers, Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance] enablers that allow the smaller force structure to fight an MCO [major combat operation] threat with reasonable risk as we bridge to a 5th-generation enabled force,” the document states.

Specifically, that money will fuel a major push to modernize the Air Force's bombers and remaining fourth-generation fighters. Funding will also go toward increasing manpower to cover a new nuclear-specific B-52 bomber rotational squadron, RQ-4 Global Hawk unmanned aerial system expansion, air operation center staffing and air sovereignty alert missions, according to the document.

In addition, the money saved through the retirements will go toward the funding of a number of munitions-related research-and-development efforts, including AIM-120, Small Diameter Bomb Increment II, the maritime version of the Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile, the Massive Ordinance Penetrator and a hard-target and void-sensing fuse, the document states. Also funded are procurement of Joint Direct Attack Munition kits, AIM-9X missiles, AIM-120 missiles and Small Diameter Bombs.

The Air Force also plans to fund intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance “enablers” including terminal attack controller vehicle communications systems, GPS anti-jam systems and a joint electronic warfare database. -- Marcus Weisgerber, Inside Defense

Yey, even less of chance to fly fighters now. They already cut back to just one T-38 drop per class of 30 studs.
Old 10-15-2008, 06:08 PM
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WTF is a viper?
Old 10-15-2008, 06:24 PM
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Maybe a typo, I think he ment Falcon!
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Old 10-15-2008, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Pipelayaz
WTF is a viper?
Originally Posted by Compg
Maybe a typo, I think he ment Falcon!
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Pilots refer to the F-16 as a Viper...Fighting Falcon is rarely used except in an official statement.
Old 10-15-2008, 10:02 PM
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wasnt the viper name given to the c/j models? i have only heard a hand full of 16 pilots and crews call them vipers, and the ones that did were flying the ground jamming missions.
Old 10-15-2008, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by jester177
wasnt the viper name given to the c/j models? i have only heard a hand full of 16 pilots and crews call them vipers, and the ones that did were flying the ground jamming missions.
Pretty much all the -16 pilots call em Vipers.
Old 10-15-2008, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by StoleIt
...Fighting Falcon is rarely used except in an official statement.
or to make fun of Viper drivers
Old 10-16-2008, 04:17 AM
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as i said earlier i have talked to alot of pilots and 9 out of 10 would say 16 or falcon, the only time i heard them called vipers was when we had a wild weasle sqdrn at the died. maybe its different at the school house. who cares anyway the raptor will dominate and the uav's will eventually render a fighter pilot jobless.
Old 10-16-2008, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jester177
as i said earlier i have talked to alot of pilots and 9 out of 10 would say 16 or falcon, the only time i heard them called vipers was when we had a wild weasle sqdrn at the died. maybe its different at the school house. who cares anyway the raptor will dominate and the uav's will eventually render a fighter pilot jobless.
Oh so true thats where I hear them at(The D) and te UAVs are taking over. No Life support needed, no extra pilots or Navs. It will cut down man power by 60%. Oh yea and maybe less officers because they might give those jobs to the enlisted
Old 10-16-2008, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jester177
wasnt the viper name given to the c/j models? i have only heard a hand full of 16 pilots and crews call them vipers, and the ones that did were flying the ground jamming missions.
C/J's or Block 50's are Wild Weasels, its all we have here at Shaw. Its the SEADS mission.

Viper is the unofficial name of the F-16 in general much like the A-10 Thunderbolt II is the Warthog or the B-52 Stratofortress as the BUFF. In fact, almost every single jet in the Air Force has a nickname.
Old 10-16-2008, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by earl3
or to make fun of Viper drivers
lawn dart
Old 10-17-2008, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by BigT2002
C/J's or Block 50's are Wild Weasels, its all we have here at Shaw. Its the SEADS mission.

Viper is the unofficial name of the F-16 in general much like the A-10 Thunderbolt II is the Warthog or the B-52 Stratofortress as the BUFF. In fact, almost every single jet in the Air Force has a nickname.
C-5 Galaxy - FRED
C-130 - Herk (pretty obvious)
F-15E - Mud Hun, Strike Pig
B-1 - Bone
T-1 - Tone


I'll think of more as they come to me.
Old 10-17-2008, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by StoleIt
C-5 Galaxy - FRED
C-130 - Herk (pretty obvious)
F-15E - Mud Hun, Strike Pig
B-1 - Bone
T-1 - Tone


I'll think of more as they come to me.
B-2 has a TON of them since each one has its own lil nickname. The first one was Fatal Beauty
Old 10-17-2008, 06:11 AM
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I am trying to tell you guys. The Air Force will become the Army Air Corps again...
Old 10-17-2008, 08:04 AM
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so what do they do with all the old planes? do they really just put them in a boneyard? why not sell them to partner NATO countrys or something.
Old 10-17-2008, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by StoleIt
Pretty much all the -16 pilots call em Vipers.
dude i worked on 16's for 4 and 1/2 years and never heard a pilot call them vipers. there use to be a squadron in vegas called viper but they changed the name.

i think its good there cutting back on the f-15 and f-16. they need to build more f-22's it is far superior to both of them.

the f-22 is amazing, when two are flying together one can fly infront of the other and radar will make it invisible. thus makes other planes only pick up one jet when there is really two or other countries sam sites only see one jet when there is really two.

i have also heard stories that during high speed testing the tail numbers have gone missing. f-22 equals major badass
Old 10-17-2008, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Hibs
so what do they do with all the old planes? do they really just put them in a boneyard? why not sell them to partner NATO countrys or something.

yes they really put them in a boneyard. i have seen pics of where all the old f-111's are. they are just sitting in a huge junk yard.

i think they sell a few or give them away. but sure as heck not to many b/c you cant trust other countries.
Old 10-17-2008, 10:25 AM
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when those planes go to the desert thou they go into preservation so that if we need aircraft in a short amount of time we can get them out of preservation and use them
Old 10-17-2008, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by whiteLS1
the f-22 is amazing, when two are flying together one can fly infront of the other and radar will make it invisible. thus makes other planes only pick up one jet when there is really two or other countries sam sites only see one jet when there is really two.

i have also heard stories that during high speed testing the tail numbers have gone missing. f-22 equals major badass


...um...wow. Do you know how stealth works? Because thats just simply not true.


And if the tail numbers were missing on F-22's during trials...your telling me that F-22's returned WITHOUT their vertical stabs? I think we would have all heard about Raptors having large pieces of their control surfaces falling off. Or lets assume your talking about the paint burning off just from high speed runs...also hardly credible. The only time paint will burn off is re-entry from the atmosphere...while there is enough friction going like Mach 5 from the air to heat metals so they expand, the paint will not catch fire. Look at the Sr-71 or X-15's, their paint didn't scortch off.
Old 10-17-2008, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by StoleIt
...um...wow. Do you know how stealth works? Because thats just simply not true.


And if the tail numbers were missing on F-22's during trials...your telling me that F-22's returned WITHOUT their vertical stabs? I think we would have all heard about Raptors having large pieces of their control surfaces falling off. Or lets assume your talking about the paint burning off just from high speed runs...also hardly credible. The only time paint will burn off is re-entry from the atmosphere...while there is enough friction going like Mach 5 from the air to heat metals so they expand, the paint will not catch fire. Look at the Sr-71 or X-15's, their paint didn't scortch off.

yes the paint on the tail peeled off. sorry i didnt clarify that. i figured most people would know that tail numbers were painted on. i dont see why it would be hard to believe it couldnt come of. seems possible to me. guess i could be wrong but thats what i heard from someone that never seemed to tell bs stories.

i dont see how the statement about the stealth is wrong. i went through the f-22 common course. which is an FTD. im sure you know what those are right? well during the class they explained to us what i described perviously with how the stealth works and it makes sense to me. maybe i didnt explain it right. but basicly one 22 flies in front of the other and it is inside of the radar of the other 22 which makes it invisible in other planes and sam site radars. you will only be able to pick up the f22 with the radar on. you can also find out about how this works from the discover channel.


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