LEO

iTrader: (3)

Thank God for car companies like Cheverolet(ZR1/Z06), Ford(Shelby GT500/GT), Dodge(Viper) and Porsche(Carrera GT/911 GT2 RS) for offering their top models in manual transmission only. They know that clutch-shifted manuals offer a better driving experience, where the driver feels more connected to the road and has the ability to control their vehicle. Slush box guys can argue all they want they know this is true.

RedHotG8

iTrader: (1)

A slush box is a thing of the past. Automatics have come a long way from the days when a manual trans gave the car better performance and more control over the motor's rpm and power. Some of you guys really need to get out of the stone age and see how good a manually operated automatic trans performs.

I drove a 6.0 GTO with a 4 speed auto, then I test drove the G8 with the 6 speed auto/manual and it was a night and day difference. Then I drove the M6 GTO and it wasn't any different than driving the G8 in manual mode. Think what you want about automatic transmissions but you are only fooling yourself thinking a manual trans with a clutch is better.

LEO

iTrader: (3)

WRONG.

ss1129

iTrader: (16)

I would venture to say 99% of the people bitching about clutchless automatics......have never driven a dual clutch auto....a true dual clutch auto.

Again if you bitch about not having a clutch pedal...then turn all your driver assists off and get rid of that ***** awd.

Some peoples dicks are so small that they truely feel like they are better drivers because they can operate a clutch. LOL.

Irunelevens

Only one car that I've ever had even had traction control... always drove with it off. Now it wasn't *fast* but it wouldn't have mattered.

Tainted

iTrader: (9)

I fail to understand how the auto shifts any less firmly or quickly than the manual. the clutch pedal doesnt let you shift any harder or faster. If a manual had anything great to offer over an automatic then the supercars would all have a true manual. but they dont (most not all) it seems companies like ferrari lamborghini bugatti and so on have invested MILLIONS into research and development and decided to use the cluthless autos in most of their cars and im sure its safe to say that there is a damn good reason for that.


shazam watch this 150 MILLISECONDS i want to see you shift a "true" manual that fast on your own.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhDtFQU3ZFc

F1 ferrari transmission
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=resjtcK0-x0

LegacyGTBiggie

There is. It is to sell as many cars to as many people as possible. And part of that it making sure every monkey with thumbs can drive them. At the prices they charge they are marketing to a SMALL group of people. And if they took all the ones out who actually LIKE driving... And offered only a manual. Well then they would make less MONEY!!!

25psi

Anyways, back on the GTR......AMS just ran a 9.1 at 163 on pump gas.

LegacyGTBiggie

If i had the money... Id have AMS build the CTS-V i am going to get. Procharged or turbo charged LS2... Yummy!


GTR is a great car. and a triumph for nissan. I mean it really is one of the few Japanese supercars produced since the mid 90s. They need more of them. Toyota should just rerelease the Mk4 Supra with a updated 2JZ. 400hp RWD toyota coupe... They ned it and under 50k.

TheHitman

iTrader: (2)

AMS ran a 9.1 @ 163mph on MS109

and one of their other GT-Rs ran a 9.9 @ 141mph on 93 octane.


http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=45023

Good stuff! These guys will hit the 8s very soon. And they are taking their white car out to the texas mile with their 1200whp evo.

LegacyGTBiggie

I wanna be in TX sometmies... Not often. But sometimes.

Irunelevens

I think what your question should say is; "If automatics are so great, why are all the supercar companies using MANUAL TRANSMISSIONS with (just an example) things like electro-hydraulically controlled clutches?" The answer is even though the computer can shift faster than a person, the construction of a manual transmission is still better for performance. And some people like the involvement of pushing the clutch in for themselves. Just because some people can't understand that enjoyment doesn't make it any less valid.

DiscerningZ32

^This.

People are too quick to criticize and force their views on others as well.

Some people like using a clutch, others don't. It doesn't mean the person who doesn't like using the clutch is any less into driving or enjoys driving less than the manual car driver.

Can't force people to be open-minded though.

JD_AMG

No different huh? So your transmission shifts as smoothly/seamlessly as you want or as hard/quick as you want on the fly regardless of throttle input, without having to change any tuning?
The thing you are not getting here is this is not about the quickest shift, or how fast you can go in a strait line, its about being able to control the cars balance in a turn, or coming out of a turn when shifting. An abrupt hard shift that barks the tires is certainly not ideal when coming out of a turn, it could cause some serious oversteer, just as an abrupt downshift could cause understeer.

JD_AMG

Except those are not automatics, they are electronically controlled manual transmissions. Automatics have torque converters, these have a clutch or multiple clutches like a manual.
The difference is in theory they take away user error, and also help the driver (not make a bad name for the company/car) and break something by using the clutch/shifter wrong. And ofcourse by trying to take away possible user error you also take away some of the reward of driving the car yourself.
Im pretty sure NO ONE is arguing about how quick something shifts, its not about that, its about the user involvement when driving the car and the satisfaction of controlling things yourself. If cars drove themselves then they wouldn't be as fun would they?

RedHotG8

iTrader: (1)

Well said DiscerningZ32, it all comes down to personal preference. Those that think a sports car must have a clutch will never change their thinking, since they assume it's the only way to go even if there's something as good or better out there.

LegacyGTBiggie you are so wishy-washy it's unreal. You insist that a car with a clutch pedal is better than an clutchless manual or an auto/manual, then you turn around and say the GTR is a great car. You need to make up your mind dude!

RedHotG8

iTrader: (1)

It's called a tuner since I can tune the trans to make the car shift like I want it to. The shift firmness settings in my tuner are from 0% to 100%, with 100 being the firmest and 0 being the softest. I run mine at 25% so it shifts firmer than stock at WOT, yet the car doesn't kick out when I'm on the throttle hard and shifting through a sweeping curve. This doesn't change the quickness of the shift, it always shifts much faster than stock no matter what the throttle position is, it only changes how hard it will shift depending on what setting I choose.

Irunelevens

His point was, you can't decide on the fly to shift hard at one moment and then shift softly the next. That is part of the control that a clutch pedal gives you.

DiscerningZ32

Well... I would say it's never ideal to shift WHILE exiting a turn. You should be geared appropriately, and be in the right gear, so there is room left to run it out through the entirety of the turn until the car is straight again before you shift. I don't know if it's different for auto-x (going from your sig) but that's my experience with road-courses and whatnot.

A clutch does give you more control for how the car shifts. It's more or less a necessity for something like drifting for example. As far as driving a car to it's limits on a road course, it isn't at all necessary. It might making driving more fun for certain drivers because they feel more in tune with the car and connected to the road, but there again, that is purely preference.

Your automatic does not give you as much control over your drive-train as a manual with a clutch RedHotG8. The most obvious example I can give you is that you can't dab the clutch while going around a turn to break lose the tires. That's not to say that your automatic (or another automatic) can't be as quick around a track as its manual variant. In fact, several independent publishers have found the automatic CTS-V to be quicker around the tracks they tested it on.

If I strictly had a track ***** and I wanted to really compete, I'd likely view my preference as such:
Sequential (Dog Box) > Dual Clutch Manual > Automated Manual > H-pattern manual > automatic

If I was into twisties but wanted something practical and fun:
Any manual other than a dog box > automatic

If I wanted something consistent at the strip, but streetable and wanted to occasionally compete:
Automatic > Manual

If I wanted to take on Tim Lynch and Dan Millen:
Either of the big clutchless gearbox makers(Liberty or Lenco).

JD_AMG

I seriously don't believe that you are as old as you claim to be, it seems simple logic and concepts go right over your head.
How does saying a manual is better take away from a car being "good" or not? With his logic the car would be "better" with a clutch peddle, that doesn't mean its automatically bad without one.

Jesus...
Irunelevens got what I was saying, why can't you? Read the post nice and slowly not to miss key words such as "on the fly", as in you don't have to re-tune (which would not be on the fly)