The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

So the used car isn't a good analogy, but what about set of rims. If I bought a set of rims used, the first thing I'd do before mounting tires on them would be to have them checked for balance and being out of round or bent. I wouldn't wait till I drove on them and wiped out the bearings in my differential before I had them checked for proper specs.
It's due diligence really. You have to cover your butt if you expect others to refund you for a bad part.

It sucks, really it does. I'm not really familiar with what exactly was wrong with the crank, but could it have happened in transit???? Could the box have been dropped and cause damage???

SSPerformance

iTrader: (76)

Very well said Mark.

The second time the motor was built by Eastside Performance. If you aren't aware they held the LSX nitrous record for sometime. So I think they put the motor together "well enough"
You are right it does suck. I guess the wheel analogy works but on a MUCH smaller scale of value. I didn't buy everything at once. I saw a deal on the crank purchased that, then purchase new aluminum rods,LSX block, and custom pistons. I just didn't go out one day and spend $10,000 on parts.

Frans96SS

iTrader: (15)

If the shop that assembled it was so good then why after it wiped the bearings out in 2 dyno pulls wasnt something questioned and EVERYTHING in the motor checked? I know if i built a motor and it blew up in 2 dyno pulls i would be like WTF.... something has to be wrong. I know i wouldnt just put new bearings in it and figure "hey lets try again, Maybe it will work this time"

Also honestly after 2 years i wouldnt refund anyone either. Look at it from phils stand point. Who KNOWS what could happen to a crank in 2 years.

SSPerformance

iTrader: (76)

maybee you should read the first post again

stevo92z28

iTrader: (22)

No way possible this is the seller's responsibility. I don't understand how you are going to build a motor of this caliber and skimp on the freaking heart of the build. Used+checking the specs/tolerances and you probably would have been at the new price. I can see why you didn't have it checked out. This is a shitty situation but you should have had it checked before it was completely assembled. I am in no way a engine expert, but this is the same as any other used part, in which the analogy fireball used is appropriate. You know what they say once the part has been installed...Your asking for opinions so this is mine.

Again this is like the most critical part to a build and you skimped out on. If you would have it checked and there was a problem then i would say a refund would be in order or at the least a partial refund as a good business practice. But this is 2 years after the fact through the work of a shop who really i can't understand why they wouldn't insist with you on checking the used crank before assembly...or going with a new crank instead.

2 years man, that is a long time to try and come after a seller.

Ping King

iTrader: (20)

I cannot believe i am actually reading this.

At what point does an adult take responsibility for their own project and not blame someone else?

You're buying a piece of metal, that is subject to thousands of RPM with hot things attached to it that pull and push it in all directions, and you can't take the time to have it checked by your machine shop?

Quit whining. No one stuffed a gun in your mouth and made you purchase the USED crank.

Firehawk441

iTrader: (41)

Very unfortunate build...

1) Machine shops get paid.
2) Engine builders get paid.
3) People selling parts get paid.
4) Person paying the bills gets screwed.

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

And it is the person paying the bills that has to step up and perform due diligence and make sure everything is 100% prior to writing the checks.

I saw a sign in a performance shop once that said labor was $85 hour but $150/hour if you supplied the parts. Point being was that they didn't know what condition those customer supplied parts were in and could slow up the process and cause more problems in the end.

I'm sure Phil sold it as is/no warranty. I'm sure if it was found prior to installing it that it was bad he would have refunded the money, but once you install it, it's yours. I just don't get how after two years they can pinpoint that the problem was there originally prior to installing the crank if they didn't check it before hand.

Formula413

iTrader: (1)

For what it's worth, if I had given someone my word a part was good and it wasn't I would want to stand behind it. From the OP's account it does sound like it was defective from the start. Not to say Phil is 100% at fault by any means, but he did represent the part as being in good working condition. Considering that the part was not checked before installation and considering the amount of time that has past, I would offer the buyer a partial refund if it was me that sold the part.

tektrans

iTrader: (23)

I totally agree and to be quite honest, it seems to me that Phil is being less than sympathetic to Charles' misfortune here considering it all stemmed from the crank that he sold him.
I don't for one minte think Phil knew the crank was bad but now that he knows, he should step up.
Would anyone buy anything from Phil after this? I wouldn't knowing that phil isn't gonna do the right thing after the sale. JMHO
I also think this "2 years" thing is a non issue. You buy parts for a motor, takes time to gather parts, especially when you are shopping around for used parts. Then you have build time, machine time, get the car together-get a dyno appt etc. Just the parts shopping could take a year or more depending on what you're doing at the time, other things going on etc.
The 2 years thing means nothing IMO, absolutely nothing.
I just don't get how a fellow member, racer, builder can be so unsympathetic to the misfortune of Charles here-I just don't get it, like he had nothing to do with it.
The part came from him-came from you Phil-C'mon bro'.

CamaroRacing12

iTrader: (5)

just send him a quick and easy $250 on paypal and call it a day.

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

The 2 year issue wouldn't be an issue if he still hadn't installed it and found it now to be defective prior to installing it.

But how is Phil to be held responsible after it's in an engine when he didn't personally install it? It's not like Phil did the install and is now giving him a hard time. Of course everyone is going to point the finer elsewhere because no-one wants to be held accountable. It's much easier to point the finger elsewhere.

It's like buying a house. Would you trust the seller if they said their house was inspected and everything was ok, and they were to throw in a 1 year home warranty. Then 2 years later you find termite damage and they say it's been here for 4 years. Who's fault is it now? Do you think you would have a leg to stand on going back at the previous owner because the termites were determined to be there prior to you buying it?

Fact, Phil said the crank was checked before he sold it and was fine.
Fact, you had a shop determine that your busted motor was a result of a problem with the crank. The problem is, you never validated the condition of the crank prior to using it, so there is a time gap in use of the crank without confirming the conidtion of it. So the burden of proof at this point is with proving that the damage to the crank could not have occured while in your possesion, which is going to be tough without getting metalurgists involved, and now an hour of their time is going to be higher than the price of the crank.

I think people are looking at this on an emotional standpoint more than a liability standpoint.

Formula413

iTrader: (1)

The question isn't really whether Phil has to do anything, the question is, should he? Sure if this went to small claims court the buyer probably wouldn't have a case, but is that how things should work here? We're a community of enthusiasts, I thought the idea was that we all try to help each other out and hook each other up when we can. If I buy parts from someone on this forum I really don't want to have to be thinking about what I need to do to cover my ***, and if I sell parts to someone my first thought wouldn't be what is the least I am obligated to do for them. That's how I see it.

Slowhawk

iTrader: (12)

I think he has handled this very well. If I was in his shoe's and saw this post my answers would not be as nice.

I mean come on,the part was sold over a year ago. Yes,it sucks for everyone involved. Definitely not the best post to get any kind of refund.

dand35th

so you're saying the crank journal tolerances were not even checked.. because I almost find it hard to believe that it wouldn't be way tight or loose on that journal if this was the case.. not to mention after wiping out one set of bearings I would be all over looking at that spot with a microscope.. lol..

If I built engines for a living, "I" (builder) would feel responsible..

secondly that's why I NEVER buy used parts that can ever wear.. NEVER !!

hope you guys can reasonably figure something out somehow...

subarubill96

iTrader: (9)

buy a new crank, put it in as is and if it spins a bearing see if the manufactor wants to know your name.

you learned a very painful and expensive lesson, learn from it. CHECK EVERYTHING

CamaroRacing12

iTrader: (5)

i agree with this.

but if i had the money i would just throw $250 at him and forget it.

Firehawk441

iTrader: (41)

I disagree.

Regardless of who is responsible, Ignoring Charlies PM's is a poor way to handle this...

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

I hope your not trying to say I've avoided PMs because I have replied to everyone that was sent, I'm not avoiding anyone.

Here is the bottom line, I sold a crank that was checked by a machine shop and was in good condition OVER 2 years ago. It is the engine builders responsibility to check EACH and EVERY part and ensure that it meets their expectations because at the end of the day THEIR name is on it.

When we got our new crank from Bryant, we spent over $3,000 on the crankshaft alone, BEFORE it went into the motor, it was magnafluxed, checked for runout, journals were checked for size and roundness, and the balance was checked. This is a standard process for any quality engine builder.

If the Machine shop neglected to check the crank, did they check the balance? Did they check the piston to bore clearance, did they check the bearing clearance? Did they check the rods for roundness? Or did they just slap the phucker together? Which brings up my 2nd question...

If the crank was BENT it would have shown when they balanced it because bent cranks balance funny or when it was installed in the block. If the crank was BENT it would not have balanced correctly and would have been tough to rotate once the main caps were installed? You just dont miss a bent crank.

If the question had been raised back in 2008 when he got the crank before it was installed when the engine buider was doing the preliminary setup, I would have had zero issue working with him. 2 years later with plenty of question of the engine builders competence, my hands are washed of this situtation.

There is no reason to debate this situtation any more, there is absolutely zero chance I am doing any type of a refund.

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

Moderators, can you please move this to the appropriate section, Buyer and Seller feedback.