age old question finally answered
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age old question finally answered We have all heard it, the nitrous beats the fuel that causes the lean spike. Or the nitrous beats the fuel and caused the car to caugh....
WILL HOW much time difference is there...
On a direct port kick, AS MOTORSPORTS plugged data logging sensors into the Nitrous Express rails. This is to see the time it takes the rail to fill and pressurize.
SO we have a SBC, DIRECT PORT, with RAILS. system PSI is 14 fuel 1050 on the nitrous. LOts and lots of space to fill up right.
Here it is!!!!!! we see FUEL pressure in the rail before nitrous pressure.. Several dyno pulls and we got .02-.05 seconds from seeing fuel pressure to nitrous pressure.
The fuel beats the nitrous liquid to the nozzle.....
WHY
fuel is a liquid and can not be compressed... Nitrous, when the noid opens turns to a gaseous state. A solid can travel faster... Also you have a vacuum pulling the fuel and the nitrous.
Now gaseous nitrous might beat the fuel to the nozzle there is no way to tell that by this test.. and real in a gaseous state who cares..
The 2 fpss switches got test on this car and NO way would it work, the car went way rich before the nitrous got there to clean it out...
NOW put this into perspective.. DIRECT port kit, single nozzle, lots of space to fill, little space to fill. The nitrous is not the direct cause of the lean spikes people see on the dyno.
I am willing to bet that the lean spikes are caused by the nitrous slowing the air flow down or destubing it just enough to freak the signal at the MAF or Carb. to slow that fuel flow down for a moment....
But world may never know...
"Thank you AS MOTORSPORTS for conducting this test on the race car."
Ricky
WILL HOW much time difference is there...
On a direct port kick, AS MOTORSPORTS plugged data logging sensors into the Nitrous Express rails. This is to see the time it takes the rail to fill and pressurize.
SO we have a SBC, DIRECT PORT, with RAILS. system PSI is 14 fuel 1050 on the nitrous. LOts and lots of space to fill up right.
Here it is!!!!!! we see FUEL pressure in the rail before nitrous pressure.. Several dyno pulls and we got .02-.05 seconds from seeing fuel pressure to nitrous pressure.
The fuel beats the nitrous liquid to the nozzle.....
WHY
fuel is a liquid and can not be compressed... Nitrous, when the noid opens turns to a gaseous state. A solid can travel faster... Also you have a vacuum pulling the fuel and the nitrous.
Now gaseous nitrous might beat the fuel to the nozzle there is no way to tell that by this test.. and real in a gaseous state who cares..
The 2 fpss switches got test on this car and NO way would it work, the car went way rich before the nitrous got there to clean it out...
NOW put this into perspective.. DIRECT port kit, single nozzle, lots of space to fill, little space to fill. The nitrous is not the direct cause of the lean spikes people see on the dyno.
I am willing to bet that the lean spikes are caused by the nitrous slowing the air flow down or destubing it just enough to freak the signal at the MAF or Carb. to slow that fuel flow down for a moment....
But world may never know...
"Thank you AS MOTORSPORTS for conducting this test on the race car."
Ricky
Good info for sure. I wonder how we could test this on a standard wet kit. It seems it would be less of a problem than filling up the rails on direct port. I do know the lean spike is a reality though. You may be on to something, a dry hit will also have a lean spike and no fuel rail or line to fill, however, the maf does read a n2o shot and richens accordingly (maybe late?), thinking there is more air, so air theroy is? Something is causing both system to have an intitial lean spike, hmmm...
Robert
Robert
Originally Posted by NXRICKY
SO we have a SBC, DIRECT PORT, with RAILS. system PSI is 14 fuel 1050 on the nitrous. LOts and lots of space to fill up right.
I am willing to bet that the lean spikes are caused by the nitrous slowing the air flow down or destubing it just enough to freak the signal at the MAF or Carb. to slow that fuel flow down for a moment....
Ricky
Last edited by gollum; Aug 24, 2005 at 03:37 PM.
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Originally Posted by NXRICKY
the dual FPSS did work no lean spike but really really really rich at first.
Ricky
Ricky
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Interesting to say the least. Not sure on other setups...but one thing to note is the setup, pics please? Since we are a EFI board, I am assuming this was on Fuel Injected setup and hopefully more than 14psi, inferring that this is using a dedicated fuel cell for the nitrous, which would also be inferred from it being a race car as you state.
Now, run the fuel tapped off the injectors rails and try it again, I bet you a coke-cola that there will be a major lean fuel spike as the fuel is drawn out of the inj. rails and through the fuel noid taking the path of least resistance!
note #2, I'm on a roll, one single wet kit, larger shots, the drivers bank WILL show lean ona wideband opposed to normal / rich on passenger side from wet kit pulling fuel as the DP does, but only from the Drviers side of inj rail.
Just muy $.02
Now, run the fuel tapped off the injectors rails and try it again, I bet you a coke-cola that there will be a major lean fuel spike as the fuel is drawn out of the inj. rails and through the fuel noid taking the path of least resistance!
note #2, I'm on a roll, one single wet kit, larger shots, the drivers bank WILL show lean ona wideband opposed to normal / rich on passenger side from wet kit pulling fuel as the DP does, but only from the Drviers side of inj rail.
Just muy $.02
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Originally Posted by CAT3
Interesting to say the least. Not sure on other setups...but one thing to note is the setup, pics please? Since we are a EFI board, I am assuming this was on Fuel Injected setup and hopefully more than 14psi, inferring that this is using a dedicated fuel cell for the nitrous, which would also be inferred from it being a race car as you state.
Now, run the fuel tapped off the injectors rails and try it again, I bet you a coke-cola that there will be a major lean fuel spike as the fuel is drawn out of the inj. rails and through the fuel noid taking the path of least resistance!
note #2, I'm on a roll, one single wet kit, larger shots, the drivers bank WILL show lean ona wideband opposed to normal / rich on passenger side from wet kit pulling fuel as the DP does, but only from the Drviers side of inj rail.
Just muy $.02
Now, run the fuel tapped off the injectors rails and try it again, I bet you a coke-cola that there will be a major lean fuel spike as the fuel is drawn out of the inj. rails and through the fuel noid taking the path of least resistance!
note #2, I'm on a roll, one single wet kit, larger shots, the drivers bank WILL show lean ona wideband opposed to normal / rich on passenger side from wet kit pulling fuel as the DP does, but only from the Drviers side of inj rail.
Just muy $.02
Ricky
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From: Wichita Falls, TX
Originally Posted by Noyzee
I thought you where going to tell me, the chicken or the egg??? WTF. lol
Ricky
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From: Wichita Falls, TX
Originally Posted by Noyzee
or was it the chicken
Watch a special on TV about a year ago.. The Dinosaur laid the egg that became the chicken.. So which was first the dinosaur or the egg... The world may never know..
hows your car doing.... Need some more nitrous.
Ricky
Interesting,
frirst of all, Thanks AS Motorsports for sharing that info.
a few questions though. Were each of the 4 nozzles measured or just one of them. If so, which one?
Also, was fuel in the rail, or was it dry? I assume that if you don't spray for a while (maybe minutes, hours or days, not sure) the fuel after the solenoid drips out or evaporates out of the nozzle. But right after a pull fuel stays in the rails and lines, kinda like putting your thumb over a staw full of water. So I could see a big difference in time if there was already fuel after the solenoid, vs. no fuel.
Lastly, how was the test conducted? How did you measure time so accuratly?
frirst of all, Thanks AS Motorsports for sharing that info.
a few questions though. Were each of the 4 nozzles measured or just one of them. If so, which one?
Also, was fuel in the rail, or was it dry? I assume that if you don't spray for a while (maybe minutes, hours or days, not sure) the fuel after the solenoid drips out or evaporates out of the nozzle. But right after a pull fuel stays in the rails and lines, kinda like putting your thumb over a staw full of water. So I could see a big difference in time if there was already fuel after the solenoid, vs. no fuel.
Lastly, how was the test conducted? How did you measure time so accuratly?
Interesting,
frirst of all, Thanks AS Motorsports for sharing that info.
a few questions though. Were each of the 4 nozzles measured or just one of them. If so, which one?
Also, was fuel in the rail, or was it dry? I assume that if you don't spray for a while (maybe minutes, hours or days, not sure) the fuel after the solenoid drips out or evaporates out of the nozzle. But right after a pull fuel stays in the rails and lines, kinda like putting your thumb over a staw full of water. So I could see a big difference in time if there was already fuel after the solenoid, vs. no fuel.
Lastly, how was the test conducted? How did you measure time so accuratly?
frirst of all, Thanks AS Motorsports for sharing that info.
a few questions though. Were each of the 4 nozzles measured or just one of them. If so, which one?
Also, was fuel in the rail, or was it dry? I assume that if you don't spray for a while (maybe minutes, hours or days, not sure) the fuel after the solenoid drips out or evaporates out of the nozzle. But right after a pull fuel stays in the rails and lines, kinda like putting your thumb over a staw full of water. So I could see a big difference in time if there was already fuel after the solenoid, vs. no fuel.
Lastly, how was the test conducted? How did you measure time so accuratly?
Originally Posted by CAT3
Now, run the fuel tapped off the injectors rails and try it again, I bet you a coke-cola that there will be a major lean fuel spike as the fuel is drawn out of the inj. rails and through the fuel noid taking the path of least resistance!
note #2, I'm on a roll, one single wet kit, larger shots, the drivers bank WILL show lean ona wideband opposed to normal / rich on passenger side from wet kit pulling fuel as the DP does, but only from the Drviers side of inj rail.
Just muy $.02
note #2, I'm on a roll, one single wet kit, larger shots, the drivers bank WILL show lean ona wideband opposed to normal / rich on passenger side from wet kit pulling fuel as the DP does, but only from the Drviers side of inj rail.
Just muy $.02
Last edited by cantdrv65; Aug 25, 2005 at 03:35 PM.
Cool test...thanks. I was thinking maybe a better pressure switch, or some adjustable check valves with a high cracking pressure on the far end of the nitrous rails to relieve the nitrous gas pressure until it built up to XXX psi then closed forcing the hopefully liquid nitrous into the nozzle.....
But screw it...I finally ordered my MAX II. I want to play around with the settings running each noid from a different stage with different offsets at specific RPMs in RPM based mode. Seems like the way to go especially now that you have the multiple ramp points in the graph. Or possibly offset the fuel noid with the TPS settings to kick on a split second prior
Ricky...I know you where saying something about alternating noids with the MAX II with the dual drivers having an effect on this? Have you messed around with it any more?
But screw it...I finally ordered my MAX II. I want to play around with the settings running each noid from a different stage with different offsets at specific RPMs in RPM based mode. Seems like the way to go especially now that you have the multiple ramp points in the graph. Or possibly offset the fuel noid with the TPS settings to kick on a split second prior
Ricky...I know you where saying something about alternating noids with the MAX II with the dual drivers having an effect on this? Have you messed around with it any more?
Last edited by 383LQ4SS; Aug 25, 2005 at 03:48 PM.
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Originally Posted by 860 Performance
Interesting,
frirst of all, Thanks AS Motorsports for sharing that info.
a few questions though. Were each of the 4 nozzles measured or just one of them. If so, which one?
Also, was fuel in the rail, or was it dry? I assume that if you don't spray for a while (maybe minutes, hours or days, not sure) the fuel after the solenoid drips out or evaporates out of the nozzle. But right after a pull fuel stays in the rails and lines, kinda like putting your thumb over a staw full of water. So I could see a big difference in time if there was already fuel after the solenoid, vs. no fuel.
Lastly, how was the test conducted? How did you measure time so accuratly?
frirst of all, Thanks AS Motorsports for sharing that info.
a few questions though. Were each of the 4 nozzles measured or just one of them. If so, which one?
Also, was fuel in the rail, or was it dry? I assume that if you don't spray for a while (maybe minutes, hours or days, not sure) the fuel after the solenoid drips out or evaporates out of the nozzle. But right after a pull fuel stays in the rails and lines, kinda like putting your thumb over a staw full of water. So I could see a big difference in time if there was already fuel after the solenoid, vs. no fuel.
Lastly, how was the test conducted? How did you measure time so accuratly?
Test was done having datalogging sensor in the rails, and the data logger was the RPM version Data Jr. I beleive...
http://www.rpmperf.com
You can pick them up from NX.....That data logger is bad ***, AS Motorsports (Tommy) has used several different data loggers and think this on is the best. Easiest to down load, read, understand...
Ricky
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Originally Posted by 383LQ4SS
Cool test...thanks. I was thinking maybe a better pressure switch, or some adjustable check valves with a high cracking pressure on the far end of the nitrous rails to relieve the nitrous gas pressure until it built up to XXX psi then closed forcing the hopefully liquid nitrous into the nozzle.....
But screw it...I finally ordered my MAX II. I want to play around with the settings running each noid from a different stage with different offsets at specific RPMs in RPM based mode. Seems like the way to go especially now that you have the multiple ramp points in the graph. Or possibly offset the fuel noid with the TPS settings to kick on a split second prior
Ricky...I know you where saying something about alternating noids with the MAX II with the dual drivers having an effect on this? Have you messed around with it any more?
But screw it...I finally ordered my MAX II. I want to play around with the settings running each noid from a different stage with different offsets at specific RPMs in RPM based mode. Seems like the way to go especially now that you have the multiple ramp points in the graph. Or possibly offset the fuel noid with the TPS settings to kick on a split second prior
Ricky...I know you where saying something about alternating noids with the MAX II with the dual drivers having an effect on this? Have you messed around with it any more?
Now to the fuel offset. WHY not needed as you mention earlier...BUT IF U want to here is how you can.... MAke sure you down load the latest version.. In the config part it allows you to choose how the noids will be fired...TOgether lots of amp draw, so One set at a time, kind of spike and load saving. Put into the together mode... Then set stage 1 ramps once done copy stage 2 ramps from stage one.. Now both are the same untouched its like having 1 stage thats it... Modifi the stage that you want to delay ei nitrous... Then the fuel will fire first and then the nitrous... Talk to FJO the agreed, all bets are off if you do this, since they them selves have never tested in that mode...
Let me know the results, we are adding more and more stuff to that unit...
Did you get the special on that unit.
Ricky