95 TA - The Beast

iTrader: (2)

NXRicky, I am a fan of NX products, am just about ready to install everything, full wet kit, remote NX opener, automatic bottle heater, purge, etc...

But, the last item I want is a Maximizer II to control all of it (gotta love a 'set it and forget it' setup, especially for nitrous) but I REFUSE to buy a FJO Wideband to use as the wideband 'safety-net' portion of the Max2 as I already own a LM-1 and a LC-1, and cannot justify spending at least another $400-600 on a wideband setup when I already have over $1000 invested in what I have...

So, my question is, what is the voltage mapping from the FJO Wideband outputs to the Maximizer II inputs?

My next comment is reffering to the post you made here: https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...=208436&page=2

Now, I noticed in that post you made that in the screen-capture it lists a Nitrous Controller configuration and a couple of extra screens to control window rpms and AFRs for activation/deactivation but did not find any of that configuration stuff when I downloaded the FJO Wideband software for review...

Again, all I would like is an overview of the voltages needed to be output to correlate to the voltages used by the FJO wideband as I can configure the LM-1/LC-1 to put out the same range of values...

Also, if you could give an in-depth wiring overview of the J3 line on the Maximizer II so I can hook up my widebands it would also be greatly appreciated as I found the installation manual online for the Max2 to be curiously negligent in going in-depth as to the wiring of the various connectors, as if FJO wants to soak customers by forcing them to buy thier harnesses... I mean that is the only rational I can see in charging $71 (per thier price sheet) for a Bosch wideband O2 that can be had elsewhere with a standard Bosch connector for $40... I mean a weatherpak connector that is needed because they decided to use that particular one instead of the bosch standard connector doesn't justify a $30 increase, not to me at least...

Now the MAXimizer II is a sexy piece of hardware, and I WANT ONE, and I will say the FJO wideband unit is pretty damn nice too, and if I didn't already have so much money invested in my Innovate products I wouldn't hesitate to buy the FJO dual unit, but as I said, I cannot see buying something I already own just because some company wants to lock thier products together to force people to buy all they have... I mean hell, what if the whole nitrous world worked that way??? Heck, the largest majority of nitrous hardware interchanges and works with other companies stuff and that is nothing but a plus for everyone except for those that make inferior products, as it comes down to features, reliability and compatibility in regards to what people spend thier money on...

Once I know what I need to to make my wideband work with the Maximizer II , I can gurantee I'll have one sitting under the tree for me for christmas...

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

The whole philosophy behind the MAX2 is to be plug and play and interlinking. Ihave installed a few. It seems to me FJO and NX wanted to make thier products as easy to use and install as possible. To do this it comes prewired and engineered with weatherpack connectors already installed and pinned. For instance...after you hook up power and ground to the MAX2...your set. You dont have to run another power and ground to the FJO wideband that interfaces with it. You just plug it into the MAX2 and your done. Same with the FJO gauge....just plug it in and stick your gauge in the pod.

To make it work with everyone elses gauges and widebands your would still then have to add a pigtail and another weatherpack. Then install gets a little tricky and less reliable.

The decision to make the MAX2 only use the FJO stuff could be seen either way. Its a good thing due to simplicity of install and use when its setup as FJO/NX intended. But it may limit sales to people that already have widebands.

As for the missing screens. Did you look at the Widband software of the MAX2 software? AFAIK what your talking about is in the MAX2 software...Double check. There should be tabs for stage 1, stage 2 and then general. I belive they are under general. Ill have to look. But they are there.

95 TA - The Beast

iTrader: (2)

383LQ4SS, Actually I have downloaded both the Max2 and FJO Wideband software and could not find those screens posted in either application...

And in regards to the whole weatherpak deal, yes I agree plug and play is nice, but lets get real here, for anyone that does thier own work on thier car, a couple of weatherpacks are FAR from insurmountable and I will flat out ignore that statement of reliability as it is laughable if you use the proper seals and connectors... (not being an ***, but considering the amount of custom stuff I have done personally, that kind of stuff is a joke, and I would figure it would be to anyone that has any level of attention to detail and competency in wiring up automotive electronics)...

And if, per your rational, they want to lose sales of Maximizer IIs because they want to sell thier wideband I find that to be a completely short-sighted and ignorant business decision. I mean hell, we aren't talking $50 devices here, and I am sure every sale of a Maximizer II is accounted for on the bottom-line... It's not like I am asking about how to use the device for a purpose not intended, I am inquiring in regards to the interoperability with other devices that are identical in functionality, and which are not of trivial enough of a cost to consider them 'readily replaceable'... I hope you can understand where I am coming from...

Heck, I would love it if FJO would allow me to trade in 2 LC-1s with sensors for a FJO dual-wideband unit with 2 sensors, as the funtionality would be identical in my setup... That way my investment would be the same, but it is unrealistic to expect a company to go that far, methinks...

Again, I did not mean this reply as 'snide', nor 'confrontational', but I have been around in the technology game where 'protectionistic' attitudes to sell products is lame. And I already got a reply once before that "the two were designed to work well together so just buy the FJO wideband", which is flat out unacceptable and reaffirms the previous statement. Fact of the matter is that in all independant tests there is less than a 1% margin of difference in wideband units based upon the Bosch LSU 4.2 sensor, thus there should be no reason why I can't hook a LM-1/LC-1 up to the Maximizer II.

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

The statement of reliability was more towards the beginer or novice trying to wire up something that just has a birds nest of dead ended wires and a diagram. Im sure your fully capable of of doing a good job wiring. But lets face it...the avg wire job of the recreational nitrous user is is less than reliable. Doing what FJO has done increase the reliabilty of of this type of setup tremendously for the AVERAGE user out there.

And I am just being the devils advovcate here. There are a few things I may have done different when coming up with the entire package to sell that FJO chose to do.

NXRICKY

iTrader: (1)

Ok I will take this one on. I will do my best to give information as much as possible.
1st. FJO sensor at all spec'd at the factory not just a busch sensor thrown into a box and sent down the road.
2nd. All mfg's build parts to work with in a set parameters within that companies specs. If any company allows their product to be mixed and matched they also run the risk of an un happy customer after purchacing the product.. FJO builds products that work together, and can you awsome tech if a problem pops up. I have delt with problems were some one has mixed and match nitrous prodcuts. ater many emails, and few phone calls to find out it another companies product causing the problem just freaks you out...
Look at it like this, if FJO tells you how to contect another wide band and something is wrong or does not work, whom will you call,,, FJO since its the Max2.
"So, my question is, what is the voltage mapping from the FJO Wideband outputs to the Maximizer II inputs?" not sure if this info is readly available but I will check..

The set up screen to tell the Max2 to look for an o2 reading.. again I will need to save and post up screens. but at home and that info is not here.

The harness that connects The FJO wideband to the MAX2 is only a few bucks.

The interchangeability of the nitrous world is just coincidental, the hoses and fittings are readly available.. thats all...

I need to do some research because on more than one thread I have read the
LM- stuff has nitrous shut down features....

I feel for all the people that purchased the LM-stuff that want our Max2 and all it features.. Again as far as I know the only way to guarantee product form fit and function is to make it work together with it self... But I will check the to see if the voltage input are available... look on Thursday at this thread hopefully I have some more informtion....

I hope I have help a little tonight and maybe more tommorrow...

Ricky

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

The software is out there to run any WB with the FJO if they wanted to. I also have a LM1 and you can log this directly into HP Tuner soft ware. They designed their stuff to be compatable with all WBs, so FJO could have also. It's all about $$ to some, maybe to all, but some do it different. Hp Tuner could have set it up to be used only with there proprietary WB, but this would have cut many out of the picture, they would go to a different tuner program that supports their already owned WB equipment. Your not the first to complain about this, as I know I and others won't be using FJO for sometime. Not a rank on any product but rather buss practices. They should have a plug and play for dummies and a custom set-up for the guys that can actually utilize this stuff, imo.
Robert

NXRICKY

iTrader: (1)

Ok check it out, microsoft does not talk to mac directly does it.. why because the company set it up that way.. FJO can but why if you want there product then buy it all and you are covered...
Just like a nitrous kit, you start with a lesser kit then upgrade to a better system..
Ricky

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

Boy you guys are getting cocky. Are you implying that somehow FJO is better than Innovate? I think HP Tuners has it right, they make there software compatable with all WBs, even FJO right? They will certainly get more customers this way, right? I think it was a miscalculation on FJO's part to make their stuff proprietary, when innovative has a much larger user base.
Robert

FJOtech

At FJO, each product we manufacture must meet the following corporate goal:

“Products designed for the automotive industry must be able to withstand the harsh conditions that exist in this environment while still being affordable. This means not only must a product be functional; it must also be able to withstand heat, cold, water, dirt and vibration”

As with any manufacturer’s product, it will only be as good as the weakest component in the system. Not all parts are equal. We know that many of our competitor products do not meet our standards and therefore pose a risk to the performance of our products. Do we feel that our wideband is better than the cheaper products, YES we do! There are many factors that determine the quality and reliability of a wideband, for example the type of connectors used, the sensor quality, the grade of electronic components used, and how the system is calibrated. We cannot control these factors in third-party products so we cannot support their use with ours and at the same time guarantee that our products perform as specified. We do not compromise quality to make sales. It’s what our customers have grown to expect from us.

Although we do not support the use of third-party products, customers can integrate them at their own risk or with the help of the products manufacturer. GM or any other automaker doesn’t tell you how to install a third-party part on their cars, the manufacturer of the part does. By supporting a third-party part, it is implied that the manufacturer accepts the responsibility of making it work.

- If a Maximizer fails to turn off the NO2 as a result of a lean condition not being sensed correctly by a wideband, the likely comment will be “the Maximizer blew up my engine”.

At FJO we understand that a purchase is an investment, which is why our newest products still support the oldest ones. If you purchase a Maximizer-II today, it will work with the first wideband we ever made. It’s also why our new widebands still have the old non-linear output curve available as a config option.

Some may not agree on the direction we took in this regard, but given the chance to do it over, we would follow the same path.


Gerald Oberbuchner
____________________________
FJO Racing Products
www.fjoracing.com

95 TA - The Beast

iTrader: (2)

So, the reply you just gave is NOT an answer to the question I asked, but a political and marketing BS based diversion to answering the question... Plain and simple...

So, do you care to answer the technical questions posed, or are you basically saying that you don't care to sell Maximizer II units to people if they don't want to buy ALL the rest of your supporting products???

If the answer is that you refuse to give the specifics of integrating a wideband (yours or others) on a technical level (more than just plug it in and it will work, as in wiirng pinouts used, voltage levels expected, loads, etc) to the Maximizer II, then just say you will refuse to give any info on how the wideband is integrated to your equipment and lose the sale of the Maximizer II... It is that simple...

But you can be quite certain I will IMMEDIATELY champion that others refuse to use the Maximizer II because of being 'locked into a manufacturer', and make sure everyone knows your company takes such a short-sighted viewpoint to thier own success... I CANNOT STAND when a company gives such marketing BS and basically comes down to them trying to further line thier pockets instead of giving thier customers what they want... And sorry, but I consider the Max II to provide everything I am looking for, at a reasonable price point, but I REFUSE to be strong-armed into buying 'support products' that I feel are unnecessary when other products out there, that I ALREADY OWN, perform EXACTLY the same...

Like I said, offer to swap my current setup for a set of FJO units if you feel there is no other way for it to work, but I can imagine that is just as unlikely as you giving out the technical specifications... Fact of the matter is that I just want this product to work in my setup... And I am expecting the company I plan to spend money with to aide in that endeavor... It just seems incredible that a company refuses to make a sale because of extended greed...

And in regards to the whole 'if it blows up you'll blame us' that is complete BS and I am certain covered by more than one 'suitability for purpose' and 'warranty coverage and liability' statement on everything you sell, as would be proper for any performance part manufacturer, as you can't be held responsible for what people do with your products, so I view that 'viewpoint' as a marketing ruse, nothing more...

If you guys can't tell, at this point, I am more than just a little upset and frustrated by this kind of BS... If there is a solid set of technical specifications on the interoperability of the products, give us the info and let us determine if we want to take 'risks' (as if running nitrous wasn't a risk in itself) and if we want to figure out a 'way' to make them work together... But to hold back based upon the sales of other products is just unimaginable (and dare I say poor business ethics to strong-arm customers)...

Dennis

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

I personally think your way off track here. So what your saying is give the proprietry info I want or I will tell everyone else not to buy??? You have to be kidding me. If you disagree with the policy than say that. But to coerce somone or bully them is just rediculous.

And your approach to gaining the info you want is severly lacking. Why dont you pick up the PHONE and CALL FJO. Although at this point I doubt they would like to have you as a customer.
I can also tell you that if you follow thru with your threat you will not be posting here very long. That type of bullying will not happen here.

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

I too would like to know how to integrate the innovate WB into my Max 2.

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

Why dont you guys call FJO

95 TA - The Beast

iTrader: (2)

Bullying??? You have GOT to be kidding me!!!

I am stating a fact that if they will refuse to give info on how thier product operates, then I have ALL THE RIGHT to mention to others that they beleive in 'protectionistic' business practices and refuse to work with any other equipment if you don't buy thiers... Plain and simple... And that is just informing people, nothing more...

It is EXACTLY like NXRicky tried to say in regards to Microsoft and Apple, and that, at times, Apple has not wanted to 'play nice with others', and look who rules the world of personal computer, Microsoft by a landslide...

Sorry, but I am tired of people giving me the run around and refusing the answer a technical question and using marketing BS as a diversion. If they don't want to sell thier product unless you commit to buy the rest of thier products for the extended funtionality, then they NEED TO SAY THAT, and stop *****-footing around...

See, marketing is a double-edged sword, as if they come out and say that, it will show how they truely feel towards customers and the market they are trying to sell to. If the refute it and post the technical info, then it only helps them as they are looking to work with customers, not strong arm them. It is that simple. But to give a marketing answer to a technical request is pure BS...

Sorry, I am a VERY blunt individual when people keep giving me the run around, and how do you know that I haven't called NX or FJO on it??? Please do NOT, again, assume something you know nothing about (and you, sir, have finally pissed me off, by making assumptions that are off base and in regards to your trying to back FJO in this since you obviously like all thier products). If I am wrong on your view, then I apologize, but your last 'inferrence' when my post wasn't even involving you is out of line...

That is the whole problem with this Nitrous Oxide forum, too many people are trying to back products that they make money off of instead of giving honest technical information... That is why most vendors on most other baords are told they cannot do exactly what is hapennig around here and I applaud Nine Ball for taking a stand and telling the vendors to grow up or leave as he surely knows this is an ENTHUSIAST site, not purely a market place for vendors...

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

I would first like to state this. Us dealers do not make hardly anything off the FJO line.Thats right. To be honest with you we are luck to make 15-25 Dollars off some products. So to say that it is being pushed for profit is crazy. I could make better profits selling another companys stuff.And soon we will be offering other brand wide bands.We carry the FJO brand because we feel they are the best for our customers.We even use there products on our own cars.

However if a company does not want there product used with another brand of products for what ever reason.Weather it be marketing or quality controll that is there choice. There are other controllers on the market to choose from. To get Mad because they sell there product a certain way is uncalled for. Im sure it does cost them some sells here and there.Some products are not for everyone. However some people just like my self will buy and sell certain products for the reputation of being the best.

I suggest looking into a different controller if the maximizer does not fit your needs. There are many to choose from on the market.If its the maximizer you want and you want it to fuction with the wideband you will simply have to use there wideband.

Lets not all turn this into another one of those post.
Relax its Christmas
Dave

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

I do use and like the FJO controllers...your not wrong about that. They are the best thing to come along since sliced bread.



I can see that you want your stuff to work. and you may be more than capable of getting it to work correctly. But I also see FJO's point about being held responsible for mishaps related to the average user trying to integrate something that is supposed to be used a failsafe. It goes both ways IMO. The world does not revolve around you.

Good luck in trying to get the info ...your doing a great job so far

95 TA - The Beast

iTrader: (2)

Ok guys, I had a nice conversation with someone over at FJO in regards to this...

And before I get into the technical stuff, let me clarify a few things...

First off, I asked a technical question to NXRicky, whose company is directly involved with FJO in relation to the Maximizer II, thus it was a direct and valid question in regards to hooking the Innovate products up directly with the Max2...

I asked not only on here, but via PM a month or so ago and via phone and got the same answer from NX that you have to use the FJO wideband with it since it 'was made to work that way' as the only technical explination.

And since it is called the NX Maximizer II, I figured that was the stance of FJO on it, as was re-affirmed earlier today by the post made by FJOtech, which I thought was just as snubbing as the replies I received prior to yesterday from the NX group (for the record as of yesterday NXRicky said he would look into it and I was still awaiting his reply with tech info)...

I tend to be quite blunt and, some may say, confrontational in breaking things down to simple a or b results... That is all I did here in asking a question and getting back a) the standard line we all know and wanting b) the information not being posted. Thus I went a step further and asked them directly to post either a) the tech info or b) a solid statement that they don't want to sell the Max 2 without thier other products, which seemed to be the logical natural conclusion... I then, took the liberty, to give my feelings towards the 'dodging the question once more' stated and got called a bully for it...

Now, for this entire technical query, I have been doing my homework, went through ALL the FJO online documentation and wiring diagrams and pretty much came up to the following solution:

1) The Maximizer II utilizes the 'legacy wideband' configuration mode of the FJO Wideband output, as they need to support thier very first wideband units as well as thier latest...

2) The wiring of the J3 connector is the same as the connector listed in thier original Maximizer documentation as Connector #2, just do not use the heater connections...

3) You SHOULD be able to wire up any other wideband in that fashion, THEORETICALLY, IF it supports the same voltage map as the 'Legacy Wideband' config as per thier latest wideband documentation lists...

The above information has been validated via a call to FJO Racing, and my hats off to them in regards to offering up the technical information requested without any hassles...

Now, I always said I liked FJO Racing products and wish I would have found them before I made teh investment I have in what I already own. I also have always stated I like NX products, so the vendors, thier products and thier features are not at issue, actually it is the DESIRE to have the products with those features that prompted this in the first place. It is the handling of a technical question that is at issue.

So, my hats off to FJO Racing, and would have appreciated if NX would have just referred me to them directly. Then ALL of this would not have transpired...

And for the record, I just told the wife that it *IS* the Maximizer II that I shall be 'requesting' for christmas... Too bad I have to wait another 3-4 months before I can use it... Damn snow...

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

Good deal! A phone call and talking to the right person can do wonders Now everyone is happy.

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

95 TA,
Thanks for sharing that info. I just learned something. I was under the impression that the maximizer would not work with other brands period.
Dave

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

95ta, maybe you could do a right up step by step, with pics? This would be invaluable for us running the lm1. I too liked the FJO Max II and all it offered, but had it in my mind, not for me cause i have a lm1. I could host your write up if need be, and your interested.
Robert