redbullapril23

is anyone using nitrous and also injecting alcohol(instead of gas in a wet kit) aka methanol or ethanol to supress detonation to run a large shot?


also i had this over on Corvette fourm ill post what i said or what was said...
right here:

and the thing is if you had a nozsle or like wet injector ... the fuel shear technology would warrant that you woundt need such a high PSI pump. the fuel rail is only putting in about what 10 psi max to the system and using the velocity and psi of the n20 to tear it up.



i was getting bashed alot over on the c4 forced induction/n20 for my thinking...

i mean methanol at $3 a gallon is alot cheaper than 100 octane at $9 a gallon and to fill the tank or at least half is way to much!


Some stuff I'm sure you already know.........
You need at least twice the fuel volume that you would with gas.
Meth is quite tolerant of running rich, so better safe than sorry.
Alcohol absorbs water from the air, so one more reason to run extra rich unless you're sure your alcohol is really fresh and from a sealed container.
Better to run a return system, or have some way of purging trapped air from the alcohol system. I never figured out why some people think it's so important to purge the nitrous side, but ignore the thing that can cause instant destruction, trapped air in the fuel system!
The stuff is pretty corrosive, so plan the separate fuel system accordingly.
Use normal safeguards such as low fuel pressure cutoff, and possibly a "proof switch" hooked to a light to show you have fuel pressure past the solenoid and at the nozzle when hosing.

I talked to NOS about it one time and they seemed pretty clueless.....the whole concept seemed to baffle them.





1. anyone know a good cheap pump that would do with methanol?
2. also does anyone know what Noszles/solenoids to use for alcohol?
id like to use a non NOS brand solenoid(as they are prone to failure)




thanks alot your friend
Sean

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

On the noids, NOS has a alky/nitro noid which will flow upto 600hp at 6psi. They also carry Weldon/NOS pumps good for alky. Hope this helps some, until some of the guys with real knowledge post. I just saw the, prone to failure, imo, they are no more prone than any other brand. You just hear about them failing more because they have been out for 25 years and a lot of old ones in need of rebuilds, meaning there are many more NOS noids out there than all other brands combined.
Robert

95ttoplt1

iTrader: (3)

I would like to see some more info on this as well. I am think about doing this on my LT1. I already have the parts for a stand alone gas system so I guess I would need a new pump and bigger jets for the Alcohol. Would all this work on a shark nozzle?? Maybe some of the NX guys can get us some insite in to this and what it would take. I would like to do this on my street motor as I can keep the compression high and not have to pull any timing for a big shot.

TwoFast4Lv

iTrader: (8)

I actually tried many times to contact Snow about doing this but have yet to get a reply. I think it should work as well with juice as any other power adder but no one has really been giving up info on it. I would buy a Snow kit and try it if I had some kind of resource for info!

I guess i will just have to but a Snow kit and get every thing setup so I can try it

95ttoplt1

iTrader: (3)

Are you talking about just a methanol injection system?? Or using the snow kit and just using it as the fuel side?? Maybe we will play with this when I come up, my dad has a bunch of Alcholol injection stuff

white2001s10

iTrader: (4)

You may be a little under-informed on some things.
AFAIK the NOS solenoids are no more prone to failure than any others, or maybe even less so than some.
Aeromotive makes rebuildable alcohol safe pumps, but they ain't cheap.

There was a guy on here a while back with a high $ truck project with a system like you're talking about, but I never saw any results posted about how it worked.

I have asked the same question to very experienced guys around the track and they say that it doesn't work very well at all. They run race gas through their nitrous systems instead and only use methanol to primarily feed the engine.
I think it's one of those ideas that looks super on paper, but just doesn't work out.

redbullapril23

that works for the NOS noids thatnks robert
thanks guys.

i wish we had more info on this!

what is SNOW where can i look at their kit?
thanks alot your friend
Sean

www.blowerworks.net has a nice $200 alky pump

NXJeremy

This idea has been around for a while and is fairly simple to setup, but can be difficult to tune. There are lots of pumps out there that will work, the Holley Black is probably the cheapest but I would highly recommend getting a higher quality rebuildable pump from either Aeromotive or Magnafuel (same goes for the regulator).

All of Nitrous Express's solenoids can be converted to run alcohol just by changing the piston inside them. I'm pretty sure other manufacturer's solenoids would be a similar thing. The jetting will be very different than what you are used to seeing, but not a big deal.

Now comes the hard part, tuning it. The alcohol is going make things cold and when combined with nitrous, things will get very cold which can bring on some difficulties in getting the tune right. Also, the alcohol is going to make the plug look completely different than what you are used to seeing, so tuning by reading the plugs will be a new learning experience to get the feel for what an alcohol plug should, and more importantly should not, look like.

It can be done and it can work very well, but the learning curve for people that have only ever dealt with gas/nitrous is a very steep learning curve that most just end up just going back to gas. I have worked with a few street cars that have tried it and all of them have gone back to using gas, but there are a lot of full race cars doing very well with it. The main thing is it just takes time getting used to the quirks of tuning the car with alcohol.

redbullapril23

thank you this helps out alot!

where and or how would i change the piston.


what would happen on a stock lt1 head/bottom end if the charge got to cold?

thanks your friend
Sean

NXJeremy

The piston is very easy to change. All you have to do is remove the nut from the top of the solenoid and them remove the tower from the base of the solenoid to get to the piston.

The thing to pay attention to is the tune, not how cold the charge is. Getting the a/f correct is the biggest hurdle when changing from gas to alcohol. Just start with the manufacturers recommendations and go from there. More than likely those recommendations will be too rich and you will need to lean things out a little.

DynotuneN2O

iTrader: (13)

Can you use Nitro Daves Seprate fuel cell?

NXJeremy

You could, but I would recommend double checking to make sure that the Walbro pump he uses is compatible with alcohol. The regulator and the rest of the parts are alcohol compatible, just don't know for sure on the pump.

95ttoplt1

iTrader: (3)

No becuse its aluminum, you would need to use a plastic cell

NXJeremy

Sorry about that, forgot about the aluminum. Generally people don't use the aluminum with alcohol, but I've seen people do it and just flush out the cell and fuel system after they are done at the track.

You could always just get a plastic cell and then get the rest of Dave's fuel system as a package. I'm sure he would work out a good deal with you on it.

TwoFast4Lv

iTrader: (8)

Great info Jeremy!

The snow Meth kit comes with just about every thing you need including a small tank and a 150PSI pump.

http://snowperformance.net/proddetail.asp?prod=auto010

The Meth solenoid is only $40

http://snowperformance.net/proddetail.asp?prod=auto210

My concerb would be if it would flow enough to be primary fuel for N2O.

What would your take be Jeremy?

redbullapril23

if i did the meth i would do it in conjunction with the FJO controller.

what i might do is make a seperate resovior/pump/lines and store like c 16 with a tad of meth and have it inject that instead of having to deal with filling the whole dammed tank up with race gas. ...

95ttoplt1

iTrader: (3)

^ yeah that wouldn't complicate things at all

TwoFast4Lv

iTrader: (8)

HEY!! I got a reply From Snow today. I will shoot them a call in the morning

NXJeremy

TwoValve - I looked at the link for the solenoid that you posted. It looks to be the same physical size as our smallest solenoid, but I couldn't find anywhere that said what the orifice size was. My guess is that they get the solenoids from Peter Paul Mfg. so is should be either .125" or .150". If it is, then it would flow enough alcohol to support 150rwhp, but that would be getting close to it's maximum probably.

I would recommend getting a larger fuel solenoid for alcohol to be on the safe side since you will have to flow roughly twice as much compared to gasoline. Don't know about other solenoids, but our larger fuel solenoids draw the same amperage as the smallest one, so you're not losing anything by going to a larger solenoid.

white2001s10

iTrader: (4)

Don't forget that the solenoid might not be the only restriction.
If you need to use a .120 fuel jet but the fuel side of the nozzle restricts down to .080 before it exits, then that's a problem.

To an extent raising the pressure would address both of those potential problems.

I'm very curious to hear some of the methanol tuning secrets myself.
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that simply multiplying the amount of fuel X2 is not really going to get you close enough on the tune at all.
Methanol has a different density than gasoline and doesn't neccessarily burn best at a stoich ratio anyway.