LS7 lifter failure
03-15-2009, 03:58 AM
#1
LS7 lifter failure Check out whats left of the piston 
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...r-failure.html
LS7=OEM
This is why we like to use Morels
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...r-failure.html
LS7=OEM
This is why we like to use Morels
03-15-2009, 09:09 AM
#3
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Check out whats left of the piston
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...r-failure.html
LS7=OEM
This is why we like to use Morels
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...r-failure.html
LS7=OEM
This is why we like to use Morels
But, How many of us shift @ 7300???
Also agreed the Morels are said to be one of the best on the market.
What is the price on them? That gut just destroyed his motor. That is some of the worst Carnage I have seen.
03-15-2009, 09:10 AM
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Are you sure it was the lifter that caused the damage? The op says most of the other lifters that came out was spongy, that in itself is not an indication of failure. Looks to me that the head of the valve broke off and obviously caused the damage. Even if the lifter hydraulics went soft, there would be noise but I doubt it would snap the head of the valve off. And there wasn't a picture of the actual lifter that came out of that cylinder that went away. I have persoanlly used hundreds of LS7 lifters in both LS and earlier SBC engines and have never had a failure, there also haven't been lifter related issues in the Z as far as I know. Now if you ask me about the Cadillac lifters that is a different story, but even with taht I really doubt it would cause a valve to break. I will put my $$$ on something else other than the lifters, my bet is on the valve being defective.
03-15-2009, 11:06 AM
#5
First I've heard of these having any issues. I'm running them as well. I know several guys on here (10 plus) running these on their Head/Cam set ups with no issues. Like the other party said, how many of us shift at 7200? If you go to a GM dealership this is what they now give you for replacement. If they were having a BIG issue with them I would think they would have the brains to take them off the selves.
03-15-2009, 11:18 AM
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Put it this way, I have several customers that use these same lifters in their track Z06's. These cars are not making a 10 to 12 sec pass just down the 1/4 mile track. These cars see sustained engine run times of 30 minutes at various engine speeds up to 7000 RPM for a Z. One customer has lost two engines which GM warrantied (yes they did!) due to oil starvation on sustained high speed banked turns. He now has a new LS7 with updated ARE dry sump parts to eliminated the oil starvation issues. But never was there a lifter issue.
Who knows what really happened to the OPs engine, he "says" he shifted at 7300, but it could have been higher, who knows what his cam profile was and how the cam interacted with the springs. Just because the spring is rated for X lift there are other factors that allow the valve to remain in control at high RPM. He is using a LS3/L92 head so that means that valve is a 2.16 OD valve, and its a solid stem valve which means its HEAVY! Why do you think GM went to a Ti valve in the LS7.
IMHO it appears to me that there was valve float issue, it contacted the piston and then the valve head snapped off which caused the catastrophic engine damage. Now my question is where did that valve come from? Was it a PEP valve, as those are cheap Asian knock offs, yea they are made off SS but.........the rest is history.
Who knows what really happened to the OPs engine, he "says" he shifted at 7300, but it could have been higher, who knows what his cam profile was and how the cam interacted with the springs. Just because the spring is rated for X lift there are other factors that allow the valve to remain in control at high RPM. He is using a LS3/L92 head so that means that valve is a 2.16 OD valve, and its a solid stem valve which means its HEAVY! Why do you think GM went to a Ti valve in the LS7.
IMHO it appears to me that there was valve float issue, it contacted the piston and then the valve head snapped off which caused the catastrophic engine damage. Now my question is where did that valve come from? Was it a PEP valve, as those are cheap Asian knock offs, yea they are made off SS but.........the rest is history.
03-15-2009, 11:38 AM
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Put it this way, I have several customers that use these same lifters in their track Z06's. These cars are not making a 10 to 12 sec pass just down the 1/4 mile track. These cars see sustained engine run times of 30 minutes at various engine speeds up to 7000 RPM for a Z. One customer has lost two engines which GM warrantied (yes they did!) due to oil starvation on sustained high speed banked turns. He now has a new LS7 with updated ARE dry sump parts to eliminated the oil starvation issues. But never was there a lifter issue.
Who knows what really happened to the OPs engine, he "says" he shifted at 7300, but it could have been higher, who knows what his cam profile was and how the cam interacted with the springs. Just because the spring is rated for X lift there are other factors that allow the valve to remain in control at high RPM. He is using a LS3/L92 head so that means that valve is a 2.16 OD valve, and its a solid stem valve which means its HEAVY! Why do you think GM went to a Ti valve in the LS7.
IMHO it appears to me that there was valve float issue, it contacted the piston and then the valve head snapped off which caused the catastrophic engine damage. Now my question is where did that valve come from? Was it a PEP valve, as those are cheap Asian knock offs, yea they are made off SS but.........the rest is history.
Who knows what really happened to the OPs engine, he "says" he shifted at 7300, but it could have been higher, who knows what his cam profile was and how the cam interacted with the springs. Just because the spring is rated for X lift there are other factors that allow the valve to remain in control at high RPM. He is using a LS3/L92 head so that means that valve is a 2.16 OD valve, and its a solid stem valve which means its HEAVY! Why do you think GM went to a Ti valve in the LS7.
IMHO it appears to me that there was valve float issue, it contacted the piston and then the valve head snapped off which caused the catastrophic engine damage. Now my question is where did that valve come from? Was it a PEP valve, as those are cheap Asian knock offs, yea they are made off SS but.........the rest is history.
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03-15-2009, 12:26 PM
#8
Yeah I have to agree the lifter failing was not the start of the problem. Loss of valve train control was. Springs were not adiquite for the job, Valve train was to heavy for RPMs. They were asking alot from those parts at 7,300....way past the limit for the parts combination they had going.
Lets put it this way my new heads have 2.14 INT valves and the springs are 250 seat and 660 over the nose
Even the springs I am running on my Morels are 195 seat and 525 over the nose for 2.055 valves shifting at 7,200
I sure hate to see someone loose and Engine like that for sure.
Lets put it this way my new heads have 2.14 INT valves and the springs are 250 seat and 660 over the nose
Even the springs I am running on my Morels are 195 seat and 525 over the nose for 2.055 valves shifting at 7,200
I sure hate to see someone loose and Engine like that for sure.
03-15-2009, 12:39 PM
#9
Well what made the valve come in contact with the piston? It can happend a few ways, this is just a good thread to look at and see the whole picture.
Looks like they did some investigating
It would be nice to know if he winked any other pistons
The isn't the first LS7 lifter to fail though (and it looks like it wasnt a failure due to the lifter). They are only OEM lifters and they don't meet the demands of a true hi performance combo but they are very good for what they were designed to do.
They are very good for what they are built for, but they weren't made for constant hi rpm shifting. My builder sees this all the time so I get informed all the time of what failed on what engine.
As far as the Morels the are 4 levels of them. They have some for around $350 that are basically a re-valved no better body than LS7 lifter.
They they step up to the true hi performance stuff and the price jumps to $500 for the non link bar Morels (although I think Thunder just had them for 450 during their freaky Friday Sale).
Then you have the link bars which I get 565 for delivered, they go for between $500-$575
Then they have an option to hi performance ones called the HLT. Its 0 lash with .030 of travel. Cant pump up or down really. This option adds about $50-$75 to the price. BUT it really needs adjustable rockers and you should know how to setup and check the geometry very well.
Then they have the ultimate Morel. This is born from offshore racing. It's meant for constant 5800-6500 rpms. What they do is reduce the size of the valving and make the wall thicker on the body.
What they found on the spin-tron is its the actual body of the lifter that comes apart from the harmonics or vibrations generated as well as the internal pressure created at hi rpms. The Morel uses hardened tool steel for the body.
Not sure and I'm not sure if the OP doesn't know for sure what made that valve hit the piston, but we do see the LS7 lifter carnage more than people realize.
Bottom line is the top end needs to have great thought put into it. Matching up your top end components to the application intended is crucial to engine life.
BTW Dougy if you want a set of Morels I'll sell them to you for cost if you sit in my lap at Hooters when I get up there
Looks like they did some investigating
Yep, it was the P/V contact that caused the collapsed lifter. dlove said his P/V clearance was a bit on the close side and obviously the valvetrain wasn't stable enough with that new cam at 7k+ We talked it over last night and came to that conclusion.....
The isn't the first LS7 lifter to fail though (and it looks like it wasnt a failure due to the lifter). They are only OEM lifters and they don't meet the demands of a true hi performance combo but they are very good for what they were designed to do.
They are very good for what they are built for, but they weren't made for constant hi rpm shifting. My builder sees this all the time so I get informed all the time of what failed on what engine.
As far as the Morels the are 4 levels of them. They have some for around $350 that are basically a re-valved no better body than LS7 lifter.
They they step up to the true hi performance stuff and the price jumps to $500 for the non link bar Morels (although I think Thunder just had them for 450 during their freaky Friday Sale).
Then you have the link bars which I get 565 for delivered, they go for between $500-$575
Then they have an option to hi performance ones called the HLT. Its 0 lash with .030 of travel. Cant pump up or down really. This option adds about $50-$75 to the price. BUT it really needs adjustable rockers and you should know how to setup and check the geometry very well.
Then they have the ultimate Morel. This is born from offshore racing. It's meant for constant 5800-6500 rpms. What they do is reduce the size of the valving and make the wall thicker on the body.
What they found on the spin-tron is its the actual body of the lifter that comes apart from the harmonics or vibrations generated as well as the internal pressure created at hi rpms. The Morel uses hardened tool steel for the body.
Not sure and I'm not sure if the OP doesn't know for sure what made that valve hit the piston, but we do see the LS7 lifter carnage more than people realize.
Bottom line is the top end needs to have great thought put into it. Matching up your top end components to the application intended is crucial to engine life.
BTW Dougy if you want a set of Morels I'll sell them to you for cost if you sit in my lap at Hooters when I get up there
Last edited by 99blancoSS; 03-15-2009 at 12:54 PM.
03-15-2009, 01:14 PM
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Yeah I have to agree the lifter failing was not the start of the problem. Loss of valve train control was. Springs were not adiquite for the job, Valve train was to heavy for RPMs. They were asking alot from those parts at 7,300....way past the limit for the parts combination they had going.
Lets put it this way my new heads have 2.14 INT valves and the springs are 250 seat and 660 over the nose
Even the springs I am running on my Morels are 195 seat and 525 over the nose for 2.055 valves shifting at 7,200
I sure hate to see someone loose and Engine like that for sure.
Lets put it this way my new heads have 2.14 INT valves and the springs are 250 seat and 660 over the nose
Even the springs I am running on my Morels are 195 seat and 525 over the nose for 2.055 valves shifting at 7,200
I sure hate to see someone loose and Engine like that for sure.
Yep it always sux to loose an engine like that. Having to run at engine speeds like that demands a very stable valve train, why mess around just get a good shaft rocker system, and go with the right springs and solids. No sense screwing around with hydrualics and living with its limations.
What are you up to Ellis? Get anything cool on your B-Day? All I got was a nice dinner out at a real nice resturant. I have been too busy to do anything else with the baby and being book until the end of April now. Sometimes working really sux with no time for yourself or doing your own mods. On the bright side, I almost have the parts to complete my LS7 block now
03-15-2009, 01:16 PM
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Well what made the valve come in contact with the piston? It can happend a few ways, this is just a good thread to look at and see the whole picture.
Looks like they did some investigating
It would be nice to know if he winked any other pistons
The isn't the first LS7 lifter to fail though (and it looks like it wasnt a failure due to the lifter). They are only OEM lifters and they don't meet the demands of a true hi performance combo but they are very good for what they were designed to do.
They are very good for what they are built for, but they weren't made for constant hi rpm shifting. My builder sees this all the time so I get informed all the time of what failed on what engine.
As far as the Morels the are 4 levels of them. They have some for around $350 that are basically a re-valved no better body than LS7 lifter.
They they step up to the true hi performance stuff and the price jumps to $500 for the non link bar Morels (although I think Thunder just had them for 450 during their freaky Friday Sale).
Then you have the link bars which I get 565 for delivered, they go for between $500-$575
Then they have an option to hi performance ones called the HLT. Its 0 lash with .030 of travel. Cant pump up or down really. This option adds about $50-$75 to the price. BUT it really needs adjustable rockers and you should know how to setup and check the geometry very well.
Then they have the ultimate Morel. This is born from offshore racing. It's meant for constant 5800-6500 rpms. What they do is reduce the size of the valving and make the wall thicker on the body.
What they found on the spin-tron is its the actual body of the lifter that comes apart from the harmonics or vibrations generated as well as the internal pressure created at hi rpms. The Morel uses hardened tool steel for the body.
Not sure and I'm not sure if the OP doesn't know for sure what made that valve hit the piston, but we do see the LS7 lifter carnage more than people realize.
Bottom line is the top end needs to have great thought put into it. Matching up your top end components to the application intended is crucial to engine life.
BTW Dougy if you want a set of Morels I'll sell them to you for cost if you sit in my lap at Hooters when I get up there
Looks like they did some investigating
It would be nice to know if he winked any other pistons
The isn't the first LS7 lifter to fail though (and it looks like it wasnt a failure due to the lifter). They are only OEM lifters and they don't meet the demands of a true hi performance combo but they are very good for what they were designed to do.
They are very good for what they are built for, but they weren't made for constant hi rpm shifting. My builder sees this all the time so I get informed all the time of what failed on what engine.
As far as the Morels the are 4 levels of them. They have some for around $350 that are basically a re-valved no better body than LS7 lifter.
They they step up to the true hi performance stuff and the price jumps to $500 for the non link bar Morels (although I think Thunder just had them for 450 during their freaky Friday Sale).
Then you have the link bars which I get 565 for delivered, they go for between $500-$575
Then they have an option to hi performance ones called the HLT. Its 0 lash with .030 of travel. Cant pump up or down really. This option adds about $50-$75 to the price. BUT it really needs adjustable rockers and you should know how to setup and check the geometry very well.
Then they have the ultimate Morel. This is born from offshore racing. It's meant for constant 5800-6500 rpms. What they do is reduce the size of the valving and make the wall thicker on the body.
What they found on the spin-tron is its the actual body of the lifter that comes apart from the harmonics or vibrations generated as well as the internal pressure created at hi rpms. The Morel uses hardened tool steel for the body.
Not sure and I'm not sure if the OP doesn't know for sure what made that valve hit the piston, but we do see the LS7 lifter carnage more than people realize.
Bottom line is the top end needs to have great thought put into it. Matching up your top end components to the application intended is crucial to engine life.
BTW Dougy if you want a set of Morels I'll sell them to you for cost if you sit in my lap at Hooters when I get up there
03-15-2009, 08:24 PM
#15
Yep it always sux to loose an engine like that. Having to run at engine speeds like that demands a very stable valve train, why mess around just get a good shaft rocker system, and go with the right springs and solids. No sense screwing around with hydrualics and living with its limations.
What are you up to Ellis? Get anything cool on your B-Day? All I got was a nice dinner out at a real nice resturant. I have been too busy to do anything else with the baby and being book until the end of April now. Sometimes working really sux with no time for yourself or doing your own mods. On the bright side, I almost have the parts to complete my LS7 block now
What are you up to Ellis? Get anything cool on your B-Day? All I got was a nice dinner out at a real nice resturant. I have been too busy to do anything else with the baby and being book until the end of April now. Sometimes working really sux with no time for yourself or doing your own mods. On the bright side, I almost have the parts to complete my LS7 block now
We have had a few things to do but are running out.
I got my heads just about done(360cfm or so int. flow
) and I can not wait to get them back. Still waiting on my converter..after five months. We also have Stephs new 383 sitting here ready to be assmbeled and stuffed into its ne home Still undecided on if I will be running boost or Juice but 1,000RWHP is the goal!
03-15-2009, 11:24 PM
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Hey Tom. I got a good dinner and a good movie for my B-day. The wife is great!
We have had a few things to do but are running out.
I got my heads just about done(360cfm or so int. flow ) and I can not wait to get them back. Still waiting on my converter..after five months. We also have Stephs new 383 sitting here ready to be assmbeled and stuffed into its ne home
Still undecided on if I will be running boost or Juice but 1,000RWHP is the goal!
We have had a few things to do but are running out.
I got my heads just about done(360cfm or so int. flow
) and I can not wait to get them back. Still waiting on my converter..after five months. We also have Stephs new 383 sitting here ready to be assmbeled and stuffed into its ne home Still undecided on if I will be running boost or Juice but 1,000RWHP is the goal!
otherwise its a PITA. If all goes right and if I have some time to do the swap it will happen sometime this summer. I still can't beleive I am booked well into April now, I am real busy and can't complain, for me its going to be a record February, March and April, I am very thankful seeing how others are either closing their doors or starving.
03-16-2009, 09:08 PM
#18
There is nothing wrong with running hydraulics to 7000 rpms As with any combo you need to set it up properly. There are many many 7000 rpm hydro setups out there making great power that don't break or have valve float and aren't running a shaft rocker. The key is getting it set up properly and using the correct components for the application.
We're doing some really big stroke stuff these days and running them to 7000 rpms without issue. My 457 will be one of them as well as a few 454's that are there right now. All running Morels, but I do admit I had to go to the Jesel shaft mounts with my top end as the heads I'm using have an offset rocker pattern. Otherwise I would have saved some serious money on the rocker choice...LOL
Did you see where Patrick G took some solid roller lobes and mixed them in with a hydro cam and gained a substantial amount? Pretty interesting thread. With the Morel HLT you can run certain solid roller lobes as well. They are expensive but are still less money than the Morel solid roller setup and gives you some options when it comes to cam.
We're doing some really big stroke stuff these days and running them to 7000 rpms without issue. My 457 will be one of them as well as a few 454's that are there right now. All running Morels, but I do admit I had to go to the Jesel shaft mounts with my top end as the heads I'm using have an offset rocker pattern. Otherwise I would have saved some serious money on the rocker choice...LOL
Did you see where Patrick G took some solid roller lobes and mixed them in with a hydro cam and gained a substantial amount? Pretty interesting thread. With the Morel HLT you can run certain solid roller lobes as well. They are expensive but are still less money than the Morel solid roller setup and gives you some options when it comes to cam.
Last edited by 99blancoSS; 03-16-2009 at 09:18 PM.
03-17-2009, 12:44 PM
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How can a collapsed lifter make a valve stay open? All that would do would be to make it lift less. That doesn't make sense at all. Don't believe everything that's posted on the internet. Just because someone has a high dollar engine doesn't mean they know how it works.
03-17-2009, 04:03 PM
#20
ouch! My new motor has that lifter but the engine builder disassembles them and installs Cad racing lifter parts. Something like ceramic check ball, etc. He does spec engines for circle track guys, so I hope these hold up better than the stockers.