Beware of this dealer!
06-04-2005, 10:43 AM
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Beware of this dealer! A friend of mine had a disturbing dealer experience and in my opinion got totally screwed, they didn't even use vaseline! The story starts with him purchasing two brand new 1T duaramax duallies from this dealer. He then takes them to a shop to have full exhaust and a Edge Juice boxes installed. One of the things installed was a gage pod on the drivers side. When the installer installed the pod he inadvertantly drilled through a small wire harness, nothing major. All that happened was that temperature reading had stopped working in the inside rearview mirror.
He calls me and askes my opinion, I in turn call my GM contact and ask his opinion. My contact tells me that they have had a rash of mirrors going bad so my advice was to take it to the dealer and have it repaired under warranty. The dealer gets it and it takes two days to find the problem. And they charged him 7.5 HOURS of labor time @ $80/hour
And then has the gall to charge him for several units of tape, heat shrink and solder!
He askes me to call the service manager which I did. Before I did I checked in the GM Manual to see where the damage occured and how it was wired. The wire harness runs from the rear view mirror, across the top of the headliner and down the drivers side piller moulding where it terminates at the junction block at left side of the dash. This junction block is easily accessible via a trap door on the left side of the dash. Mind you this harness is easily removed in its entireity in less than 10 minutes! The damn thing is only 5 feet long and is about as big around as your pinky!
I called the guy to see what he had to say about justifying this labor time. Common sense would tell you that:
A: There was work done to the truck and the problem started immediately after that
B: The work was done at the pillar
C: Gee you idiot the wire harness runs down that pillar
His explanation was that he looked at that wire and could not see any damage, his guy said that he didn't find it until he unwrapped the tape from the harness. And he says it worked when he bypassed it at the junction block to the mirror. That tells me that the problem was between the junction block and the mirror. Plain old common sense would tell me to look at where the work was done. I would have agreed to maybe 3 hours at tops but no way in hell 7.5 hours.
So if any of you need dealer work in Gresham Oregon, I would watch out for these guys: Murray Chevrolet
And you wonder why people distrust dealers or for that matter the whole automotive repair industry. In my shop I wouldn't have the ***** to charge someone that much to repair an open circuit. Even if it took me 7.5 hours because that would mean I didn't know what the hell I was doing in the first place! Sorry for the rant and raving but I had to vent!
He calls me and askes my opinion, I in turn call my GM contact and ask his opinion. My contact tells me that they have had a rash of mirrors going bad so my advice was to take it to the dealer and have it repaired under warranty. The dealer gets it and it takes two days to find the problem. And they charged him 7.5 HOURS of labor time @ $80/hour
And then has the gall to charge him for several units of tape, heat shrink and solder!He askes me to call the service manager which I did. Before I did I checked in the GM Manual to see where the damage occured and how it was wired. The wire harness runs from the rear view mirror, across the top of the headliner and down the drivers side piller moulding where it terminates at the junction block at left side of the dash. This junction block is easily accessible via a trap door on the left side of the dash. Mind you this harness is easily removed in its entireity in less than 10 minutes! The damn thing is only 5 feet long and is about as big around as your pinky!
I called the guy to see what he had to say about justifying this labor time. Common sense would tell you that:
A: There was work done to the truck and the problem started immediately after that
B: The work was done at the pillar
C: Gee you idiot the wire harness runs down that pillar
His explanation was that he looked at that wire and could not see any damage, his guy said that he didn't find it until he unwrapped the tape from the harness. And he says it worked when he bypassed it at the junction block to the mirror. That tells me that the problem was between the junction block and the mirror. Plain old common sense would tell me to look at where the work was done. I would have agreed to maybe 3 hours at tops but no way in hell 7.5 hours.
So if any of you need dealer work in Gresham Oregon, I would watch out for these guys: Murray Chevrolet
And you wonder why people distrust dealers or for that matter the whole automotive repair industry. In my shop I wouldn't have the ***** to charge someone that much to repair an open circuit. Even if it took me 7.5 hours because that would mean I didn't know what the hell I was doing in the first place! Sorry for the rant and raving but I had to vent!
06-04-2005, 12:03 PM
#3
I hear you man! I spent around 16 hours working on a Buick a few weeks ago. You know how it is when you come down to replacing a PCM. It is hard to make that call on an Intermitant problem. We charged 2.5 hours diagnostic time for all the time I spent on it.
BTW It was the right call
BTW It was the right call
06-04-2005, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by TwoFast4Lv
I hear you man! I spent around 16 hours working on a Buick a few weeks ago. You know how it is when you come down to replacing a PCM. It is hard to make that call on an Intermitant problem. We charged 2.5 hours diagnostic time for all the time I spent on it.
BTW It was the right call
BTW It was the right call
I am all for getting paid for what is coming and what is due. However I looked at this, and having the exact some dealer manuals from GM. If their tech had any common sense to tracking down a circuit problem, it should have not taken any longer than 2 hours and thats giving him the benefit of the doubt.
06-05-2005, 03:24 AM
#5
Your friend got screwed big time 
After the rat chewed the entire harness off the engine, it only took the mech 3 hours to put on a new one. Everything was *toast* and he'd never had to put on a full harness yet it only took a couple of hours.
Go figure.
After the rat chewed the entire harness off the engine, it only took the mech 3 hours to put on a new one. Everything was *toast* and he'd never had to put on a full harness yet it only took a couple of hours.
Go figure.
06-05-2005, 09:42 AM
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Your freind should not have gotten charged a dime...it was their fault
Mention attorney general and dealers services and they straighten right up.
The local dealer in town hates me they always screw my car up and i make em fix it no charge either.But ellis is 140 miles away i cant ask him to do it all. so i really have no choice they do fix the problem but i have to babysit them.
Mention attorney general and dealers services and they straighten right up.
The local dealer in town hates me they always screw my car up and i make em fix it no charge either.But ellis is 140 miles away i cant ask him to do it all. so i really have no choice they do fix the problem but i have to babysit them.
06-05-2005, 11:10 AM
#7
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I work for a dealer too, an International truck dealer, where out of 18 technicians I'm one of 3 that do major component electrical diagnostics and repair so I have more than a little experience here. First let me say that I agree that the customer got screwed here, but I think the shop that did the install of the aftermarket components are the ones who did the screwing, not the dealer ( although it seems they took advantage a little bit too ).
Why would you recommend that the guy have this repair done "under warranty" when it clearly is NOT a warranteable repair ? GM is not liable for the problem that occurred, it was the shop that drilled the hole. Why didn't THEY repair it ? Aren't they capable of fixing one open wire on a harness that in your own words would take 10 minutes to access ? They, at least, are most certainly responsible for the bill if they need to farm the work out. IMO the jist of the story is this.
The shop that installed the exhaust and the Edge Juice boxes fucked up and drilled a hole in a wire, then they stuck the customer with a 7.5 hr labor bill to have it fixed somewhere else. Am I the only guy who see's it this way ?
Last week I spent 14 hrs diagnosing and installing a "CAN bus" overlay harness update on a International 4300 truck. It was my first one and so took way longer that it should have. For those that are not familiar with this the CAN bus are the circuits that all of the vehicle computers from differant vendors use to talk to one another. This includes the ECS ( controls all in-cab functions, gauges, heater controls etc. ) the ECU ( International engine computer ) , ABS ( Bendix anti-lock brake control ) , TCM ( Allison tranny computer ). It involves de-pinning the existing CAN bus from all the plugs and connectors and re-pinning the new harness in it's place. Many of these are almost IMPOSSIBLE to get at ! It took me 14 hrs and we charged only 9. Next time around I'll do it in less than 6. Since I do what I do, on a weekly basis I see repairs that customers are trying to pass off as warranty work when it's caused by an outside source. This is clearly in that category. What is the name of the shop that did the original installs ? That's the one I'd want to avoid.
Sorry for the rant, it has become a major pet peeve of mine as you can tell
Why would you recommend that the guy have this repair done "under warranty" when it clearly is NOT a warranteable repair ? GM is not liable for the problem that occurred, it was the shop that drilled the hole. Why didn't THEY repair it ? Aren't they capable of fixing one open wire on a harness that in your own words would take 10 minutes to access ? They, at least, are most certainly responsible for the bill if they need to farm the work out. IMO the jist of the story is this.
The shop that installed the exhaust and the Edge Juice boxes fucked up and drilled a hole in a wire, then they stuck the customer with a 7.5 hr labor bill to have it fixed somewhere else. Am I the only guy who see's it this way ?
Last week I spent 14 hrs diagnosing and installing a "CAN bus" overlay harness update on a International 4300 truck. It was my first one and so took way longer that it should have. For those that are not familiar with this the CAN bus are the circuits that all of the vehicle computers from differant vendors use to talk to one another. This includes the ECS ( controls all in-cab functions, gauges, heater controls etc. ) the ECU ( International engine computer ) , ABS ( Bendix anti-lock brake control ) , TCM ( Allison tranny computer ). It involves de-pinning the existing CAN bus from all the plugs and connectors and re-pinning the new harness in it's place. Many of these are almost IMPOSSIBLE to get at ! It took me 14 hrs and we charged only 9. Next time around I'll do it in less than 6. Since I do what I do, on a weekly basis I see repairs that customers are trying to pass off as warranty work when it's caused by an outside source. This is clearly in that category. What is the name of the shop that did the original installs ? That's the one I'd want to avoid.
Sorry for the rant, it has become a major pet peeve of mine as you can tell
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06-05-2005, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Racehead
I work for a dealer too, an International truck dealer, where out of 18 technicians I'm one of 3 that do major component electrical diagnostics and repair so I have more than a little experience here. First let me say that I agree that the customer got screwed here, but I think the shop that did the install of the aftermarket components are the ones who did the screwing, not the dealer ( although it seems they took advantage a little bit too ).
Why would you recommend that the guy have this repair done "under warranty" when it clearly is NOT a warranteable repair ? GM is not liable for the problem that occurred, it was the shop that drilled the hole. Why didn't THEY repair it ? Aren't they capable of fixing one open wire on a harness that in your own words would take 10 minutes to access ? They, at least, are most certainly responsible for the bill if they need to farm the work out. IMO the jist of the story is this.
The shop that installed the exhaust and the Edge Juice boxes fucked up and drilled a hole in a wire, then they stuck the customer with a 7.5 hr labor bill to have it fixed somewhere else. Am I the only guy who see's it this way ?
Last week I spent 14 hrs diagnosing and installing a "CAN bus" overlay harness update on a International 4300 truck. It was my first one and so took way longer that it should have. For those that are not familiar with this the CAN bus are the circuits that all of the vehicle computers from differant vendors use to talk to one another. This includes the ECS ( controls all in-cab functions, gauges, heater controls etc. ) the ECU ( International engine computer ) , ABS ( Bendix anti-lock brake control ) , TCM ( Allison tranny computer ). It involves de-pinning the existing CAN bus from all the plugs and connectors and re-pinning the new harness in it's place. Many of these are almost IMPOSSIBLE to get at ! It took me 14 hrs and we charged only 9. Next time around I'll do it in less than 6. Since I do what I do, on a weekly basis I see repairs that customers are trying to pass off as warranty work when it's caused by an outside source. This is clearly in that category. What is the name of the shop that did the original installs ? That's the one I'd want to avoid.
Sorry for the rant, it has become a major pet peeve of mine as you can tell
Why would you recommend that the guy have this repair done "under warranty" when it clearly is NOT a warranteable repair ? GM is not liable for the problem that occurred, it was the shop that drilled the hole. Why didn't THEY repair it ? Aren't they capable of fixing one open wire on a harness that in your own words would take 10 minutes to access ? They, at least, are most certainly responsible for the bill if they need to farm the work out. IMO the jist of the story is this.
The shop that installed the exhaust and the Edge Juice boxes fucked up and drilled a hole in a wire, then they stuck the customer with a 7.5 hr labor bill to have it fixed somewhere else. Am I the only guy who see's it this way ?
Last week I spent 14 hrs diagnosing and installing a "CAN bus" overlay harness update on a International 4300 truck. It was my first one and so took way longer that it should have. For those that are not familiar with this the CAN bus are the circuits that all of the vehicle computers from differant vendors use to talk to one another. This includes the ECS ( controls all in-cab functions, gauges, heater controls etc. ) the ECU ( International engine computer ) , ABS ( Bendix anti-lock brake control ) , TCM ( Allison tranny computer ). It involves de-pinning the existing CAN bus from all the plugs and connectors and re-pinning the new harness in it's place. Many of these are almost IMPOSSIBLE to get at ! It took me 14 hrs and we charged only 9. Next time around I'll do it in less than 6. Since I do what I do, on a weekly basis I see repairs that customers are trying to pass off as warranty work when it's caused by an outside source. This is clearly in that category. What is the name of the shop that did the original installs ? That's the one I'd want to avoid.
Sorry for the rant, it has become a major pet peeve of mine as you can tell
No it was obviously not a warranty repair. The shop that did the aftermarket installation did pay or rather reimberse the customer for what the dealer charged. The shop that installed the Edge stuff didn't charge the customer anything. The customer was advised to go to the dealer only because it was a known fact that there was historical problems with the inside rearview mirror displays. Also the dealer was advised of the aftermarket work and where the work was performed. IMHO 7.5 hours was not justified.
I agree when you are working on certain new communications protocals things can be a RPITA. In these cases with GM, the techs have a contact via GM Techline. All of these communications are documented, the techs are mandated to be clocked in on their ROs to keep track of time spent on these types of repairs. Nine times out of ten they get paid for the time spent when they follow protocal in performing these repairs.
You think you got it bad working on communications problems with a few devices inside a truck. I can tell you horror stories about comm problems in 10000 IO point paper mill control system, top that with nasty chemicals that can literally eat your skin away! Remember the re-made movie "THE FLY" and how he upchucks on that guys leg and dissolves it, well that is what Sodium Hydroxide can do to you in concentrated form!
I too have worked for years in a dealership. I put myself through school doing so. I hated warranty work as much as any tech out there. And given the chance to decline a warranty I would do so. But only in cases where it was justifiable. Case in point, a customer brings in a new 1981 4x4 with the power steering leaking. I repaired the seals once, even though I was justified in declining it because this guy had huge oversized tires on it causing an overload on the steering system, this alone cause the leak. I advised the customer that I would repair it that one time and that his tires was causing the problem. You could see the steering shaft move side to side when the steering wheel was momved back and forth. 3 months later he returned with the same problem, this time it was declined by the local GMC warranty rep.
Now I am back in this damn business again, gave up my lucrative engineering job to own a damn dyno shop. I still wonder if I am doing the right thing......anyone want to buy a low milage 1200Hp Mustang Chassis Dyno
06-05-2005, 01:01 PM
#9
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Originally Posted by tjwong
IMHO 7.5 hours was not justified.
*go to the nearest upstream connector and check for power, go to the recipient component and check for power. Problem harness is now nailed* Seems like maybe a 2-3 hr repair at most to me ?
I agree when you are working on certain new communications protocals things can be a RPITA. In these cases with GM, the techs have a contact via GM Techline. All of these communications are documented, the techs are mandated to be clocked in on their ROs to keep track of time spent on these types of repairs. Nine times out of ten they get paid for the time spent when they follow protocal in performing these repairs.
sometimes they're nothing more than an obstruction to getting the problem fixed lol !
You think you got it bad working on communications problems with a few devices inside a truck. I can tell you horror stories about comm problems in 10000 IO point paper mill control system, top that with nasty chemicals that can literally eat your skin away! Remember the re-made movie "THE FLY" and how he upchucks on that guys leg and dissolves it, well that is what Sodium Hydroxide can do to you in concentrated form!
There's a certain un-named German Co. that installs remote control computerized pumping/drilling/grappling systems that they ( very unprofessionally I might add ) interface with the factory CAN bus on International trucks .... Sometimes I would willingly drink those chemicals that you speak of 
I too have worked for years in a dealership. I put myself through school doing so. I hated warranty work as much as any tech out there. And given the chance to decline a warranty I would do so. But only in cases where it was justifiable. Case in point, a customer brings in a new 1981 4x4 with the power steering leaking. I repaired the seals once, even though I was justified in declining it because this guy had huge oversized tires on it causing an overload on the steering system, this alone cause the leak. I advised the customer that I would repair it that one time and that his tires was causing the problem. You could see the steering shaft move side to side when the steering wheel was momved back and forth. 3 months later he returned with the same problem, this time it was declined by the local GMC warranty rep.
Now I am back in this damn business again, gave up my lucrative engineering job to own a damn dyno shop. I still wonder if I am doing the right thing......anyone want to buy a low milage 1200Hp Mustang Chassis Dyno
06-05-2005, 01:32 PM
#11
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Originally Posted by TwoFast4Lv
BTW CAN is required on ALL new vehicals by 2009 and is already here on many vehicals
lol !
06-06-2005, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Racehead
For the first time that I know of a system made it to large trucks before the automotive industry implemented it. Usually International is 3-5 years behind automotive industry standards ?! We've had CAN since '00 or '01. Hopefully they'll use good quality terminating resistors in auto's the FIRST time they implement them lol !
lol !Boy I can tell you horror stories of screwed up terminating resistors in paper mill control systems
In every PLC data highway there has to be a teminator at the end. And at every ethernet bus and siemens profi-bus system as well. Loose one of them and you stand loosing the whole bus! You should have seen some of the crap I have seen wired in China and Indonesia. The only thing that kept me going and not going nuts was the prospect of a nice little Asian girl to keep me warm at night And its funny you mentioned working with the German guys. I can tell you stories of working with engineers from Finland! If you think the Germans were bad, try working with a FIN! We had an on going joke about the engineers from Finland......."what is the closest thing to a fishes fin.......and A**HOLE"
All the engineers from Valmet Paper Machinery were from Finland and I can say that not all of them were bad, as I have several Finnish friends, but a lot of them had the "holier than tho" attitude. Which for me is a real pain in the ***.
