00Vettes low down on his bad experience and a legal question
10-03-2005, 02:39 AM
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00Vettes low down on his bad experience and a legal question So about 3 months ago (early to mid June) I was hearing some soft clanking noises from my tranny drive train area, and was worried about it. When I first moved up hear in October of 04, I was having some issues with my clutch and called this shop to replace it. They did a good job that visit! They replaced the spec stage III with a centerforce dual friction. Well, with that experience being a good one, I decided to visit them again. So I call up the shop and tell them I'm hearing clanking noises and that my last visit to the track I could smell the clutch burning after a hard run. I didn't think the clutch should slip since my car puts out less than 400rwhp. Anyway, they tell me to bring it in. So 2 days later I drop it off. In the mean time I'm trying to close on a house and have to worry about moving from my appartment to my new house. So the shop tells me it might be the tranny and I had already agreed (after talking to Ellis) to replace the Centerforce with a Mcleod twin disk. So they take the tranny out, replace the clutch and master cylinder, and tell me the 6th gear syncro is missing a tooth (I never did see the broke syncro). So the syncro get replaced and they find out that my drive shaft rubber couplers are blow/shredded to pieces. I know that is what was making that clanking noise. The bolts that held the couplers in were hitting eachother. I did some research and found out that the aluminum driveshafts flex at high rpm and under load creating a jump-rope like motion, and that is what I think caused the couplers to fail. So I decide to purchase a Carbon Fiber driveshaft which will not flex and two couplers (one aluminum/one rubber) LG doesn't recommend 2 aluminum couplers. So the shop installs the driveshaft and couplers. I get the car back after almost 2 months. It took that long. 
And boy am I excited. The mechanic told me when I picked up the car that he put the aluminum coupler on the motor side of the driveshaft and the rubber one on the rear end side. I didn't know how it went so I left very excited to have my car back. I went to PR to see some of you guys race, and had to sit that one out while I was breaking in my clutch. that first day I had my car back I noticed that everyonce in a while only at a stop, my first gear would pop out into neutral. I thought that was odd! The next day after I finished the breakin period, I took my car to Bremerton. First run of the day at the staging lights my first gear pops out again, so I put it back in gear and SNAP my driverside output shaft snapped in two. I had it towed back to the shop and explained what happened. I get a call from them telling me I need to buy a new output shaft. I figured with the duty this car will see, that I would buy a built rear differential. I call up LG (who has been wonderful to work with) and tell them about the broken output shaft and the aluminum coupler placement. LG said that the couplers were installed on the wrong ends and that may have been the reason the output shaft broke. So I tell this to the mechanic and he has the nerve to tell me that it was my responsibity to tell them how it was to be installed. 
yeah....I know what your thinking and that is what I was thinking. So I get the rear differential and take it to them for installation. When I go to pick the car up this past thursday, I tell explain about the first gear concern and the mechanic says verbatim "I wish you would have told me that before". I didn't say what I wanted to, I was just happy to have my car back again. But I explained exactly how it broke and that first gear poped out while I was in the staging lane. I explained the first day I went to these guys that this car see's heavy track abuse. So nothing has been hidden from them. Well my cars first gear still pops out into neutral when I go from a dead stop, and I don't even want to drive it. Oh and I forgot to mention that I had visited the shop a couple of times to drop off parts and talk to them in person and one time I saw boxes leaned up against my car, another time I saw the mechanic drop a wrench on my chrome rim, and the worst.........they didn't know the proper way to jack up a FIBERGLASS Corvette, so they cracked my fiberglass and dented my heat shield from the jack when they lifted it. They're insurance is going to fix the damage, but its the neglect and lack of research that pisses me off.
Now to the question, I need to have this 1st gear thing fixed, but as you guys obviously know, I don't want them fixing it (cause they'll probably brake something else while "fixing it"), not to mention, I fear they will try to get me to pay for the fix even though it didn't happen till after they had the car. From this experience what should I do? Should I seek legal guidance? Should I try to sue them or what? Can I post my experience with there business name all over the internet?
I probably left alot out, but that was a lot to unload on you guys........thanks for listening and for the help............
And boy am I excited. The mechanic told me when I picked up the car that he put the aluminum coupler on the motor side of the driveshaft and the rubber one on the rear end side. I didn't know how it went so I left very excited to have my car back. I went to PR to see some of you guys race, and had to sit that one out while I was breaking in my clutch. that first day I had my car back I noticed that everyonce in a while only at a stop, my first gear would pop out into neutral. I thought that was odd! The next day after I finished the breakin period, I took my car to Bremerton. First run of the day at the staging lights my first gear pops out again, so I put it back in gear and SNAP my driverside output shaft snapped in two. I had it towed back to the shop and explained what happened. I get a call from them telling me I need to buy a new output shaft. I figured with the duty this car will see, that I would buy a built rear differential. I call up LG (who has been wonderful to work with) and tell them about the broken output shaft and the aluminum coupler placement. LG said that the couplers were installed on the wrong ends and that may have been the reason the output shaft broke. So I tell this to the mechanic and he has the nerve to tell me that it was my responsibity to tell them how it was to be installed. yeah....I know what your thinking and that is what I was thinking. So I get the rear differential and take it to them for installation. When I go to pick the car up this past thursday, I tell explain about the first gear concern and the mechanic says verbatim "I wish you would have told me that before". I didn't say what I wanted to, I was just happy to have my car back again. But I explained exactly how it broke and that first gear poped out while I was in the staging lane. I explained the first day I went to these guys that this car see's heavy track abuse. So nothing has been hidden from them. Well my cars first gear still pops out into neutral when I go from a dead stop, and I don't even want to drive it. Oh and I forgot to mention that I had visited the shop a couple of times to drop off parts and talk to them in person and one time I saw boxes leaned up against my car, another time I saw the mechanic drop a wrench on my chrome rim, and the worst.........they didn't know the proper way to jack up a FIBERGLASS Corvette, so they cracked my fiberglass and dented my heat shield from the jack when they lifted it. They're insurance is going to fix the damage, but its the neglect and lack of research that pisses me off.Now to the question, I need to have this 1st gear thing fixed, but as you guys obviously know, I don't want them fixing it (cause they'll probably brake something else while "fixing it"), not to mention, I fear they will try to get me to pay for the fix even though it didn't happen till after they had the car. From this experience what should I do? Should I seek legal guidance? Should I try to sue them or what? Can I post my experience with there business name all over the internet?
I probably left alot out, but that was a lot to unload on you guys........thanks for listening and for the help............
10-03-2005, 04:56 AM
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So you don't think they are liable/responsible to fix the 1st gear issue since it started happening after I got it back from them and before I took it to the track?
You are correct.......I don't want to take it back to them, but I don't want to drop the cash or should I say, I don't have the cash to spend on fixing it. I probably won't have the money till next summer.
You are correct.......I don't want to take it back to them, but I don't want to drop the cash or should I say, I don't have the cash to spend on fixing it. I probably won't have the money till next summer.
10-03-2005, 08:45 AM
#3
Jon. I did not know they had taken the trans apart. This one price of information changes every thing I had given you advise on to this point.
We can explore the other options I provided but in the end I feel that the transmission will indeed need to come back out. At THAT point upon tear down we may find an assembly error. Then you 'might' have a leg to stand on. At this point they may re-emberse you part of your money.
This is some thing I would recomend we do through Kirkland Transmission due to there long and dedicated history
BTW that means I would still be working on it
On the coupler. I can actualy see there side. Many times there are no directions for a part. Had you not called on it you your self may have never known where it went. This can be a big problem with after market parts.
I would be more then willing to help you what ever direction you take either though Speed Secrets or Kirkland Transmission.
We can explore the other options I provided but in the end I feel that the transmission will indeed need to come back out. At THAT point upon tear down we may find an assembly error. Then you 'might' have a leg to stand on. At this point they may re-emberse you part of your money.
This is some thing I would recomend we do through Kirkland Transmission due to there long and dedicated history
BTW that means I would still be working on it On the coupler. I can actualy see there side. Many times there are no directions for a part. Had you not called on it you your self may have never known where it went. This can be a big problem with after market parts.
I would be more then willing to help you what ever direction you take either though Speed Secrets or Kirkland Transmission.
10-03-2005, 02:27 PM
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Here's my advice.,take it for what it's worth I am neither a mechanic nor a lawyer.
Have someone who KNOWS how to fix stuff (Kirkland Trans comes to mind
) take it apart. Figure out what's up with 1st gear for sure. If it looks like something was installed wrong, you might have a case.
As of now, the only thing you have to go on is the couplers issue. Well, unless you get LG to put it down in writing that it DEFINITELY caused broken shaft, and you can somehow prove that the shop should have known the correct placement, you don't really have much to go on. The shop will just say it was aftermarket part with no clear instructions and they did the best they could, you are racing the car, and 1st gear issue in not related.
In any case, here's what I'd do:
I would NOT take my car there again, ever.
I would consider litigation, but only if it looks like a sure case (i.e. Ellis/KT takes stuff apart, finds that work was not done right), otherwise it's not worth getting bogged down for months with it.
Whichever way you go, sit down and write down all the experiences with the shop, while you still remember them. Put all the bills from these guys together. If you talk to them again, write down everything that was said and by whom. Might never need it, but if you do, it'll save you a lot of trouble piecing things together later on.
Good luck
Have someone who KNOWS how to fix stuff (Kirkland Trans comes to mind
) take it apart. Figure out what's up with 1st gear for sure. If it looks like something was installed wrong, you might have a case. As of now, the only thing you have to go on is the couplers issue. Well, unless you get LG to put it down in writing that it DEFINITELY caused broken shaft, and you can somehow prove that the shop should have known the correct placement, you don't really have much to go on. The shop will just say it was aftermarket part with no clear instructions and they did the best they could, you are racing the car, and 1st gear issue in not related.
In any case, here's what I'd do:
I would NOT take my car there again, ever.
I would consider litigation, but only if it looks like a sure case (i.e. Ellis/KT takes stuff apart, finds that work was not done right), otherwise it's not worth getting bogged down for months with it.
Whichever way you go, sit down and write down all the experiences with the shop, while you still remember them. Put all the bills from these guys together. If you talk to them again, write down everything that was said and by whom. Might never need it, but if you do, it'll save you a lot of trouble piecing things together later on.
Good luck
10-03-2005, 02:51 PM
#5
I feel your pain, bud... it is so tough to trust anyone to work on a car you have so much invested in. I agree with everyone else, get a reputable place (like Kirkland Trans or Speed Secrets, Ellis either way) to pull apart that transmission and find out just went wrong... then pursue getting your money back from the shop if it was indeed their fault.
Either way, I wouldn't go back there... Ellis is pretty much the only guy I really trust to leave my car with and know everything's going to be done right. Well, him and Dan @ NW Diff for rear end work.
Either way, I wouldn't go back there... Ellis is pretty much the only guy I really trust to leave my car with and know everything's going to be done right.
Well, him and Dan @ NW Diff for rear end work.
10-03-2005, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TwoFast4Lv
Jon. I did not know they had taken the trans apart. This one price of information changes every thing I had given you advise on to this point.
We can explore the other options I provided but in the end I feel that the transmission will indeed need to come back out. At THAT point upon tear down we may find an assembly error. Then you 'might' have a leg to stand on. At this point they may re-emberse you part of your money.
This is some thing I would recomend we do through Kirkland Transmission due to there long and dedicated history BTW that means I would still be working on it
On the coupler. I can actualy see there side. Many times there are no directions for a part. Had you not called on it you your self may have never known where it went. This can be a big problem with after market parts.
I would be more then willing to help you what ever direction you take either though Speed Secrets or Kirkland Transmission.
We can explore the other options I provided but in the end I feel that the transmission will indeed need to come back out. At THAT point upon tear down we may find an assembly error. Then you 'might' have a leg to stand on. At this point they may re-emberse you part of your money.
This is some thing I would recomend we do through Kirkland Transmission due to there long and dedicated history
BTW that means I would still be working on it On the coupler. I can actualy see there side. Many times there are no directions for a part. Had you not called on it you your self may have never known where it went. This can be a big problem with after market parts.
I would be more then willing to help you what ever direction you take either though Speed Secrets or Kirkland Transmission.
Alright.........I don't have the money to fix the car right now, but what should I do? Should I call a lawyer and try to have them pay for the work to be done by someone else? Or should I just sit on the problem for months till I have the money?
The only thing else it trying to have them fix it........Which I don't want to do.
Also I think I need to call them ASAP if I'm gonna have it fixed. I don't think its a good Idea to call them a week from when I picked it up and say "you guys screwed up my car"..............
10-03-2005, 05:25 PM
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[QUOTE=93TAWicked1]Ellis I can see how it HAPPENED but would you blame it on the customer or take care of it? Wouldn't you call LG and ask? Mistakes happen but you don't blame it on the customer for not telling you how to do it!!! Most shops (especially transmission shops) don't want to even listen to you, they know everything, they develop and engineer custom fixes for crist sake. Ask Ken when we went into a backwoods shop to get his converter flushed I told him exactly what the guy would say and it was dead on.
QUOTE]
I also was thinking that when your installing something on a customers car (especially a performance car) and you don't know how to put it on or are unsure, you don't just assume it goes on one way or another. You call the customer and tell them to find out (which then makes the customer liable), call a specialist shop, or call the parts manufaturer..............
I respect what your saying Ellis, but wouldn't you do the research first? And when it comes to lifting a Corvette..............WTF, they should have especially done some research there.
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10-03-2005, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by longdaddy
Here's my advice.,take it for what it's worth I am neither a mechanic nor a lawyer.
Have someone who KNOWS how to fix stuff (Kirkland Trans comes to mind) take it apart. Figure out what's up with 1st gear for sure. If it looks like something was installed wrong, you might have a case.
As of now, the only thing you have to go on is the couplers issue. Well, unless you get LG to put it down in writing that it DEFINITELY caused broken shaft, and you can somehow prove that the shop should have known the correct placement, you don't really have much to go on. The shop will just say it was aftermarket part with no clear instructions and they did the best they could, you are racing the car, and 1st gear issue in not related.
In any case, here's what I'd do:
I would NOT take my car there again, ever.
I would consider litigation, but only if it looks like a sure case (i.e. Ellis/KT takes stuff apart, finds that work was not done right), otherwise it's not worth getting bogged down for months with it.
Whichever way you go, sit down and write down all the experiences with the shop, while you still remember them. Put all the bills from these guys together. If you talk to them again, write down everything that was said and by whom. Might never need it, but if you do, it'll save you a lot of trouble piecing things together later on.
Good luck
Have someone who KNOWS how to fix stuff (Kirkland Trans comes to mind
) take it apart. Figure out what's up with 1st gear for sure. If it looks like something was installed wrong, you might have a case. As of now, the only thing you have to go on is the couplers issue. Well, unless you get LG to put it down in writing that it DEFINITELY caused broken shaft, and you can somehow prove that the shop should have known the correct placement, you don't really have much to go on. The shop will just say it was aftermarket part with no clear instructions and they did the best they could, you are racing the car, and 1st gear issue in not related.
In any case, here's what I'd do:
I would NOT take my car there again, ever.
I would consider litigation, but only if it looks like a sure case (i.e. Ellis/KT takes stuff apart, finds that work was not done right), otherwise it's not worth getting bogged down for months with it.
Whichever way you go, sit down and write down all the experiences with the shop, while you still remember them. Put all the bills from these guys together. If you talk to them again, write down everything that was said and by whom. Might never need it, but if you do, it'll save you a lot of trouble piecing things together later on.
Good luck
1) The only thing I can think of is..........If by the luck of god, Ellis pulls the tranny apart and finds out that its there fault. The lawyer can get them to pay for it. That would be perfect. I would get good work at there cost...
2) What I don't want and looks like my only route (which if they don't want to do anyway I'm screwed). Is I call them ASAP, explain that I've spent oodles of money there and that my tranny is messed up now and it wasn't before I brought it to them. And hopefully they'll fix it for free. Mind you its expensive just to have your tranny/rear end pulled with no other labor.
Right around $700-$1000......
10-03-2005, 06:37 PM
#9
Jon, you can post the shop and explain your side/opinions, like you have, concerning your problems. This is not a problem on this forum. But, that's as far as it goes concerning any bashing of a shop. No third party bashing. Advice givin is fine and opinions also, concerning how you see things.
This is why I took my car to Turbo Tech, they stand behind their work and know what they are doing. Might go with Ellis in future for my tranny rebuild after I blow it apart with 550/600 hp. I feel your pain, as I have been there, but not as bad. Dump that shop, if they don't want to make you happy, or at least meet you half way. Let them know that about 300 local guys are following this thread and satisfaction could bring in a whole lota work. If that doesn't work, we can jump them with baseball bats.
Robert
This is why I took my car to Turbo Tech, they stand behind their work and know what they are doing. Might go with Ellis in future for my tranny rebuild after I blow it apart with 550/600 hp. I feel your pain, as I have been there, but not as bad. Dump that shop, if they don't want to make you happy, or at least meet you half way. Let them know that about 300 local guys are following this thread and satisfaction could bring in a whole lota work. If that doesn't work, we can jump them with baseball bats.
Robert
10-03-2005, 07:32 PM
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the only problem is I don't have the money to have anything done period.
For now, I'd try not to put too many miles on the car until the situation is resolved, if this ever gets legal (I hope it won't have to come to that), proving minimal wear will work in your favor.
10-03-2005, 09:07 PM
#12
DAMN!! Did I take a beating while I was working today or what!
OK I want all of you to ask your self one question. As I have a good Idea how the Coupler problem happened. I am guessing with out knowing exact details but this is why i gave the answer I did and I can under stand HOW it happened.
You take some thing apart and there is a broken part. You tell the customer and they get you a replacement after market part. They install the NEW part where the OLD broken part was. Seems very logical does it not? The customer did not tell you it needed to go in a different place or that they needed swapped? I can actually see 90% of you doing it
You know Bobby I could say the same about what you do for living and it is probably as far from the truth as this damn statement you made here. I have been doing this for a long time and have NEVER treated a customer like that! NOT ONCE!! YES we do many times have to come up with repairs and fixes for problems that repeat over and over. there is NO dealer or Manufacture support here. When it breaks they just say you were using it beyond it means and you should buy a new one.
I am one of the best T56 guys out there. Why. I did my research and do what it takes to get the job done. I am the guy they go to when they are tired of having the dealer F-it up 5-6 times and are willing to pay to enjoy there car again.
I am in no way either sorry or un-happy that I take pride in what I do.
MY advise is....IF you find your self in a shop like that walk out and find a new one. There are many out there. They may not be cheap(most the shops you are talking about are) but if you can trust there work it is worth every penny.
BTW I NEVER said blame the customer. I said I can under stand how it could happen. Sure glad no one here has never been in that position or made a mistake
OK I want all of you to ask your self one question. As I have a good Idea how the Coupler problem happened. I am guessing with out knowing exact details but this is why i gave the answer I did and I can under stand HOW it happened.
You take some thing apart and there is a broken part. You tell the customer and they get you a replacement after market part. They install the NEW part where the OLD broken part was. Seems very logical does it not? The customer did not tell you it needed to go in a different place or that they needed swapped? I can actually see 90% of you doing it
Originally Posted by 93TAWicked1
Most shops (especially transmission shops) don't want to even listen to you, they know everything, they develop and engineer custom fixes for crist sake. Ask Ken when we went into a backwoods shop to get his converter flushed I told him exactly what the guy would say and it was dead on.
I am one of the best T56 guys out there. Why. I did my research and do what it takes to get the job done. I am the guy they go to when they are tired of having the dealer F-it up 5-6 times and are willing to pay to enjoy there car again.
I am in no way either sorry or un-happy that I take pride in what I do.
MY advise is....IF you find your self in a shop like that walk out and find a new one. There are many out there. They may not be cheap(most the shops you are talking about are) but if you can trust there work it is worth every penny.
BTW I NEVER said blame the customer. I said I can under stand how it could happen. Sure glad no one here has never been in that position or made a mistake
10-03-2005, 09:20 PM
#13
Please ingnore my input on this thread, I obviously have problems putting my thoughts into the written word 
Have to add that to my list of inabilities along with my slowest Z06 ET to HP ratio in the land
Have to add that to my list of inabilities along with my slowest Z06 ET to HP ratio in the land Last edited by 93TAWicked1; 10-03-2005 at 09:36 PM.
10-03-2005, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by TwoFast4Lv
DAMN!! Did I take a beating while I was working today or what!
OK I want all of you to ask your self one question. As I have a good Idea how the Coupler problem happened. I am guessing with out knowing exact details but this is why i gave the answer I did and I can under stand HOW it happened.
You take some thing apart and there is a broken part. You tell the customer and they get you a replacement after market part. They install the NEW part where the OLD broken part was. Seems very logical does it not? The customer did not tell you it needed to go in a different place or that they needed swapped? I can actually see 90% of you doing it
OK I want all of you to ask your self one question. As I have a good Idea how the Coupler problem happened. I am guessing with out knowing exact details but this is why i gave the answer I did and I can under stand HOW it happened.
You take some thing apart and there is a broken part. You tell the customer and they get you a replacement after market part. They install the NEW part where the OLD broken part was. Seems very logical does it not? The customer did not tell you it needed to go in a different place or that they needed swapped? I can actually see 90% of you doing it
Back to the problem though..........
If you were in my situation, would you wait till you had the money to fix it? Take it back and try to have them fix it for free? Or what?
Your opinion carries alot of weight to me.........
10-03-2005, 09:44 PM
#15
LOL I was gone for like 5 minutes LOL!!
Bobby I was in no way offened You did touch a soar spot with me. Being in the transmission industry we have been gruped with thieves and low lifes for years. mainly because of past problems in the industry that were for the most part cleaned up years ago. YES there are still thiefs out there so beware but most are gone.
I was only using the T56 as a referance to what it takes to be good at it
Jon you are now stuck in a hard spot. MOST shop warranty's are void for racing(Kirkland Transmission is one of the few) and if you read the fine print it is an "On site" warranty. The car must be returned to them for warranty repairs. Either direction you need to get ahold of them ASAP and talk it over. If things do not go well it then it will be time. for small claims court. The problem is you are afraid to have them work on your car and they will be willing to work on it to resolve the issue. <~ that is the sticking point. Now with the problems you have had there may be grounds to win the case. you will still need to know "what" is wrong to go forward.
I will shoot you a pm With my number and we can talk over viable options you can afford
Bobby I , like you ,tend to type the wrong stuff. No hard feelings were intended or felt on this end
Bobby I was in no way offened
You did touch a soar spot with me. Being in the transmission industry we have been gruped with thieves and low lifes for years. mainly because of past problems in the industry that were for the most part cleaned up years ago. YES there are still thiefs out there so beware but most are gone.I was only using the T56 as a referance to what it takes to be good at it
Jon you are now stuck in a hard spot. MOST shop warranty's are void for racing(Kirkland Transmission is one of the few) and if you read the fine print it is an "On site" warranty. The car must be returned to them for warranty repairs. Either direction you need to get ahold of them ASAP and talk it over. If things do not go well it then it will be time. for small claims court. The problem is you are afraid to have them work on your car and they will be willing to work on it to resolve the issue. <~ that is the sticking point. Now with the problems you have had there may be grounds to win the case. you will still need to know "what" is wrong to go forward.
I will shoot you a pm With my number and we can talk over viable options you can afford
Bobby I , like you ,tend to type the wrong stuff. No hard feelings were intended or felt on this end
10-03-2005, 09:47 PM
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Thanks Ellis........I'm heading to bed to catch a few hours of sleep before I head in to work. I'm covering for a suboordinate, so he can take some time off, and now I have to cover his midnight to 8am shift.........That sucks.
