Mail-Order Dyno Tune
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From: Berkeley, California
Mail-Order Dyno Tune The usual question is mail-order OR dyno tune. Some shop should offer mail-order dyno tuning. What I have in mind is something like the following: The customer provides complete specifications of his engine; displacement, compression ratio, heads, cam, intake, injectors, etc. The shop's expert technicians quickly assemble that combination from a vast inventory of parts. The customer provides any unusual parts not in inventory or pays extra. The shop then tunes the duplicate combination on an engine dyno. They deliver to the customer a Katech-quality tune without the customer needing to write Katech a blank check. Does anyone offer anything like this service?
You do realize the cost of such a project, and it's lack of efficiency, right?
You're talking about a shop having an engine on the dyno, ready to make changes at request, with a variety of cams, heads, displacement, etc., all for a mail order tune, that usually sells for anywhere from 75 bucks to 250 bucks. In all reality, something like that would cost more than a full chassis dyno tune. Heck, just to put an engine on an engine dyno is usually 800 bucks plus.
BTW, what is a "Katech quality tune"?
You're talking about a shop having an engine on the dyno, ready to make changes at request, with a variety of cams, heads, displacement, etc., all for a mail order tune, that usually sells for anywhere from 75 bucks to 250 bucks. In all reality, something like that would cost more than a full chassis dyno tune. Heck, just to put an engine on an engine dyno is usually 800 bucks plus.
BTW, what is a "Katech quality tune"?
doesn't seem cost-effective to have a shop build you an entire engine identical to the one you already have and then ship you the tune. they'd have to charge you a lot if they're going to keep all possible combinations of parts on hand and spend the time assembling it all.
You would maybe get a slight step above a regular mail-order tune. They will be two different engines, they will not be exactly the same, no matter if they use the same parts or not. That's why everyone out there with the same 228 cam and the same stock 241 heads isn't making exactly 403 RWHP (just a random example I came up with).
Thread Starter
10 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,471
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From: Berkeley, California
I do not know the cost. I expect it to be more expensive than a conventional dyno tune. Efficiency could come from the fact that many combinations are quite common and and would need only to be tuned once. A shop could specialize in NA 347s, for example. Much of this work has already been done.
You do realize the cost of such a project, and it's lack of efficiency, right?
You're talking about a shop having an engine on the dyno, ready to make changes at request, with a variety of cams, heads, displacement, etc., all for a mail order tune, that usually sells for anywhere from 75 bucks to 250 bucks. In all reality, something like that would cost more than a full chassis dyno tune. Heck, just to put an engine on an engine dyno is usually 800 bucks plus.
BTW, what is a "Katech quality tune"?
You're talking about a shop having an engine on the dyno, ready to make changes at request, with a variety of cams, heads, displacement, etc., all for a mail order tune, that usually sells for anywhere from 75 bucks to 250 bucks. In all reality, something like that would cost more than a full chassis dyno tune. Heck, just to put an engine on an engine dyno is usually 800 bucks plus.
BTW, what is a "Katech quality tune"?
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Thread Starter
10 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,471
Likes: 3
From: Berkeley, California
You would maybe get a slight step above a regular mail-order tune. They will be two different engines, they will not be exactly the same, no matter if they use the same parts or not. That's why everyone out there with the same 228 cam and the same stock 241 heads isn't making exactly 403 RWHP (just a random example I came up with).
Last edited by Gary Z; Feb 5, 2009 at 09:34 PM.
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Verdad Gallardo Thread Starter
10 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,471
Likes: 3
From: Berkeley, California
Not intentionally. Here is an alternative idea. We already have an on-line repository of free, mostly amateur, downloadable tunes. Why can't someone take advantage of their engine development work and provide a library of high-quality professional tunes, downloadable for $500? Thunder Racing wouldn’t be giving away big secrets if they made available a tune for a 346 with stock heads, LS6 intake, longtubes and a TR224. They certainly have this information. Why don’t they sell it?
Last edited by Gary Z; Feb 5, 2009 at 10:25 PM.
Even the same setup on different cars with the same tune at the same shop on the same dyno on the same day are not going to be exactly the same. I'm not saying they won't be close, I'm just saying the wear and build of the two engines will not be identical. Also the sensors might a read a little different, one engine might have more miles, one set of heads might flow better than the other, there are too many variables to make what this guy suggests in any way comparable to a real dyno tune. Better than a mail order, maybe, but it still won't be dead on.
Even the same setup on different cars with the same tune at the same shop on the same dyno on the same day are not going to be exactly the same. I'm not saying they won't be close, I'm just saying the wear and build of the two engines will not be identical. Also the sensors might a read a little different, one engine might have more miles, one set of heads might flow better than the other, there are too many variables to make what this guy suggests in any way comparable to a real dyno tune. Better than a mail order, maybe, but it still won't be dead on.
When you have run the car across the emission rolls with a final end calibrator, then and only then do you have a complete sellable calibration.
Then you ship the car to the dealer, sell the car and realize that some customers in Northern MN are complaing about cold starts, so you do a manditory cal change. Then, some other customers in Phoenix complain about something else and you make another manditory cal change.
Sorry for the long statement, but I think it gets the point across. To change your engine even 50hp over stock really requires a new calibration. Yes it will work, but it will not be 100%, more like 65%, and the more you add the worse it gets. So, get your parts, and go through the steps mentioned and it will be a GM quality tune!!!
I have done the same setups on many cars and get much variation. If you are into even basic physics, you understand that the slew of variables actually means that no two can be the same.
Amazon tuning has this for cobras. You pay like 175 dollars and get as many downloadable tunes as long as you own the car. Just tell them your specs and everything else and then they send it to you within 24 hours. You then just upload it to your hand held tuner and then it uploads it to your car pcm.
Amazon tuning has this for cobras. You pay like 175 dollars and get as many downloadable tunes as long as you own the car. Just tell them your specs and everything else and then they send it to you within 24 hours. You then just upload it to your hand held tuner and then it uploads it to your car pcm.
Ford are much easier to tune e-mail than GM. I can give you a file for your 500 hp cobra, and be within reason without issue.
What the major difference between GM and ford guys. GM engines are big, respond great to a heads/cam package, and run a SD/MAF based system. Fords are "MAF" based, some alpha N backup, but basically maf only, with the maf in an intake track, not located 2" from the throttle body.
GM guys run heads/cams are basic mods. They make great power, and require real tuning. Each setup is unique, with lots of head options, lots of cam options, lots of exhaust options, ect.
Ford guys run basic boltons, (intake, exhaust, pulleys, cai, ) and then go to forced induction. That's the most logical way to make power on a mustang. There are no "400 rwhp" cam only guy, and no "50+hp" cams on stock fords.Once you install an aftermarket forced induction setup on a car, you need real tuning. You can get close through mail order, with datalogging, and a wideband. Some ford tuning companies provide thier dealers with real starting points, forced induction value files, maf value files, injector value files (all based off of real flow data...) that make dialing in a combination much easier. GM guys are all based off of the starting point thier tuner has, the tuning companies provide software, (diablosport may be the only exception, i have never seen CMR in person for any gm applications)
Ryan
What the major difference between GM and ford guys. GM engines are big, respond great to a heads/cam package, and run a SD/MAF based system. Fords are "MAF" based, some alpha N backup, but basically maf only, with the maf in an intake track, not located 2" from the throttle body.
GM guys run heads/cams are basic mods. They make great power, and require real tuning. Each setup is unique, with lots of head options, lots of cam options, lots of exhaust options, ect.
Ford guys run basic boltons, (intake, exhaust, pulleys, cai, ) and then go to forced induction. That's the most logical way to make power on a mustang. There are no "400 rwhp" cam only guy, and no "50+hp" cams on stock fords.Once you install an aftermarket forced induction setup on a car, you need real tuning. You can get close through mail order, with datalogging, and a wideband. Some ford tuning companies provide thier dealers with real starting points, forced induction value files, maf value files, injector value files (all based off of real flow data...) that make dialing in a combination much easier. GM guys are all based off of the starting point thier tuner has, the tuning companies provide software, (diablosport may be the only exception, i have never seen CMR in person for any gm applications)
Ryan
Ford are much easier to tune e-mail than GM. I can give you a file for your 500 hp cobra, and be within reason without issue.
What the major difference between GM and ford guys. GM engines are big, respond great to a heads/cam package, and run a SD/MAF based system. Fords are "MAF" based, some alpha N backup, but basically maf only, with the maf in an intake track, not located 2" from the throttle body.
GM guys run heads/cams are basic mods. They make great power, and require real tuning. Each setup is unique, with lots of head options, lots of cam options, lots of exhaust options, ect.
Ford guys run basic boltons, (intake, exhaust, pulleys, cai, ) and then go to forced induction. That's the most logical way to make power on a mustang. There are no "400 rwhp" cam only guy, and no "50+hp" cams on stock fords.Once you install an aftermarket forced induction setup on a car, you need real tuning. You can get close through mail order, with datalogging, and a wideband. Some ford tuning companies provide thier dealers with real starting points, forced induction value files, maf value files, injector value files (all based off of real flow data...) that make dialing in a combination much easier. GM guys are all based off of the starting point thier tuner has, the tuning companies provide software, (diablosport may be the only exception, i have never seen CMR in person for any gm applications)
Ryan
What the major difference between GM and ford guys. GM engines are big, respond great to a heads/cam package, and run a SD/MAF based system. Fords are "MAF" based, some alpha N backup, but basically maf only, with the maf in an intake track, not located 2" from the throttle body.
GM guys run heads/cams are basic mods. They make great power, and require real tuning. Each setup is unique, with lots of head options, lots of cam options, lots of exhaust options, ect.
Ford guys run basic boltons, (intake, exhaust, pulleys, cai, ) and then go to forced induction. That's the most logical way to make power on a mustang. There are no "400 rwhp" cam only guy, and no "50+hp" cams on stock fords.Once you install an aftermarket forced induction setup on a car, you need real tuning. You can get close through mail order, with datalogging, and a wideband. Some ford tuning companies provide thier dealers with real starting points, forced induction value files, maf value files, injector value files (all based off of real flow data...) that make dialing in a combination much easier. GM guys are all based off of the starting point thier tuner has, the tuning companies provide software, (diablosport may be the only exception, i have never seen CMR in person for any gm applications)
Ryan
I recently did an LT1 mail order for another shop. They loaded the tune, then called me and told me it would hardly run. He had to jack the MAF table up in the lower portion by like 80% to make it idle. Then it was idling at like 1800. I spent some time on the phone with them (I kept telling them it had to have a vacuum leak) and finally, after they found the problem (vacuum leak) he loaded my tune back in, and said it ran damn near perfect (cammed, LT4 heads, intake, etc.)
Moral of the story, when it comes to mail order tuning, you CANNOT account for the uncontrollable variables. The tune can be PERFECT for the setup, based on a controlled, engine dynoed, exact duplicate, yada, yada, and if you plug that tune into a car with a problem, well all of a sudden, the tune's not worth crap.