dyno tuning link
06-21-2011, 08:04 PM
#2
TECH Senior Member
These two books probably explain it the best:
Greg Banish: Engine Management
Greg Banish: Fuel Injection Systems
The point made by those books is that with a load bearing dyno, the operating point can be held steady in each of the VE tables cells to get a sufficient number of hits in each cell (i.e. each cell is hit under steady state [non-transient] airflow conditions).
By contrast, tuning on the street gives you an insufficient number of steady state condition cell hits (the engine just spins up rather than being held at some RPM/MAP under load).
Greg Banish: Engine Management
Greg Banish: Fuel Injection Systems
The point made by those books is that with a load bearing dyno, the operating point can be held steady in each of the VE tables cells to get a sufficient number of hits in each cell (i.e. each cell is hit under steady state [non-transient] airflow conditions).
By contrast, tuning on the street gives you an insufficient number of steady state condition cell hits (the engine just spins up rather than being held at some RPM/MAP under load).
06-21-2011, 09:52 PM
#5
It will go something like this.
Did you knowing allow someone to operate your car at wide open throttle to 130 MPH? YES
Did you know there was a real possibilty something could go wrong, and there could be a mechanical failure? YES (If not, you're in denial)
Case closed...........
There was no difference in running your car on the dyno than running it 130 mph down the track, with the exception of wrecking on the track. Had you handed the keys to someone to run it down the track, and it blew up, you could no more blame them than blame the tuner or tuner shop in this instance. There is nothing to say that the trans did not have an issue that caused this. The trans was rebuilt. How do you know it was done correctly? Just because it operates correctly at part throttle, does not mean it will operate correctly at WOT or coming down from WOT. Before dynoing it, did you make a full throttle run to 130, and decelerate? If not, how do you know the trans worked correctly in this instance? There could very well be something wrong with the trans that would not show up until something like this.
There are waaaaay too many variables to blame this on the dyno/operator/shop. This is the main reason for release forms.
06-22-2011, 05:06 AM
#7
The real intent of a release form is to try to isolate the shop owner from any liabilty. It does nothing to protect the vehicle owner. This is the reason, all dyno seasons should be video recorded, including being able to see the dyno screen.
I think you're thinking the judge, is a car guy and will know the risks of dyno tuning. Most peoples only exposure to a dyno is emmisions testing, so I doubt, if the judge will, know to ask the risks, and he shouldn't have to, since that's the defense attorny's job.
I see the car owner's attorny questioning the shop owner about what went wrong and the shop owner, saying he doesn't know, and from there the shop owner's case going down hill.
I know you know who the tuner was, since one call to one of my mustang buddies, down your way, got me the answer. I don't see it being long until its public knowledge, on here, since its already street talk in VB
I think you're thinking the judge, is a car guy and will know the risks of dyno tuning. Most peoples only exposure to a dyno is emmisions testing, so I doubt, if the judge will, know to ask the risks, and he shouldn't have to, since that's the defense attorny's job.
I see the car owner's attorny questioning the shop owner about what went wrong and the shop owner, saying he doesn't know, and from there the shop owner's case going down hill.
I know you know who the tuner was, since one call to one of my mustang buddies, down your way, got me the answer. I don't see it being long until its public knowledge, on here, since its already street talk in VB
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06-22-2011, 06:45 AM
#8
On the other hand, you as a car owner, you know I'm going to strap your car down, and run it for all it's worth. Which would include running the engine to over 6000 RPM (in most cases) and to speeds up to 150+ MPH wheel speed. Now, as I stated in my earlier post, you can no more know if it's going to blow up on the dyno, than on the track or street. And "it was fine before you strapped it down" is no legal defense or recourse. Neither is "it was built to withstand much more". Every cay owner has to know there is an inherent risk involved in dyno tuning, and the release form is only intended to release the shop and tuner of any liability.
Last edited by edcmat-l1; 06-22-2011 at 08:05 AM.
06-22-2011, 07:57 AM
#9
Again, in all fairness, I highly doubt educating an attorney or judge will make any difference.
It will go something like this.
Did you knowing allow someone to operate your car at wide open throttle to 130 MPH? YES
Did you know there was a real possibilty something could go wrong, and there could be a mechanical failure? YES (If not, you're in denial)
Case closed...........
There was no difference in running your car on the dyno than running it 130 mph down the track, with the exception of wrecking on the track. Had you handed the keys to someone to run it down the track, and it blew up, you could no more blame them than blame the tuner or tuner shop in this instance. There is nothing to say that the trans did not have an issue that caused this. The trans was rebuilt. How do you know it was done correctly? Just because it operates correctly at part throttle, does not mean it will operate correctly at WOT or coming down from WOT. Before dynoing it, did you make a full throttle run to 130, and decelerate? If not, how do you know the trans worked correctly in this instance? There could very well be something wrong with the trans that would not show up until something like this.
There are waaaaay too many variables to blame this on the dyno/operator/shop. This is the main reason for release forms.
It will go something like this.
Did you knowing allow someone to operate your car at wide open throttle to 130 MPH? YES
Did you know there was a real possibilty something could go wrong, and there could be a mechanical failure? YES (If not, you're in denial)
Case closed...........
There was no difference in running your car on the dyno than running it 130 mph down the track, with the exception of wrecking on the track. Had you handed the keys to someone to run it down the track, and it blew up, you could no more blame them than blame the tuner or tuner shop in this instance. There is nothing to say that the trans did not have an issue that caused this. The trans was rebuilt. How do you know it was done correctly? Just because it operates correctly at part throttle, does not mean it will operate correctly at WOT or coming down from WOT. Before dynoing it, did you make a full throttle run to 130, and decelerate? If not, how do you know the trans worked correctly in this instance? There could very well be something wrong with the trans that would not show up until something like this.
There are waaaaay too many variables to blame this on the dyno/operator/shop. This is the main reason for release forms.
06-22-2011, 10:16 AM
#11
TECH Senior Member
OP, your question contains hidden motives (I should have recognized you from your other thread)... in this case I agree with what Ed and 2xLS1 said.
In your situation (in your other thread), if the shift tables are correct then a downshift will not over-rev the engine (PCM inhibits a downshift until the RPM is safe), unless something goes wrong (transmission failed in a manner causing a lower gear).
Both attorneys will throw this out, car was modified therefore you were racing.
In your situation (in your other thread), if the shift tables are correct then a downshift will not over-rev the engine (PCM inhibits a downshift until the RPM is safe), unless something goes wrong (transmission failed in a manner causing a lower gear).
Both attorneys will throw this out, car was modified therefore you were racing.
06-22-2011, 10:41 AM
#12
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dyno video This thread has gotten way off the point. I was asking if anybody can send me a link giving the basics of dyno tuning. I am also under the impression that you guys have not be reading the threads that I have posted.
Here is a reader’s digest version.
#1 No liability form was offered to me to read and sign explaining my liability even through the tuner used to this. No discussion occurred between any of the parties involved concerning liability. No signs were posted discussing liability. I was told in front of another witness that this would be an easy tune.
In other words liability was secretly assigned to me.
#2 The engine was put together under the guidance of a gentlemen who has a automotive degree. The engine was assembled last fall. The engine was assembled from the bottom up. The transmission was built by a transmission guy with lots of experience and insight in these types of transmissions. The transmission was installed last July.
#3 No n20 was used during the tuning therefore the car was operating way under the build design.
#4 A build list was provided to the tuner months before the tune and he had plenty of time to ask questions directed towards the builders. I state this fact because my car is a front wheel drive car and their transmission and TC can be different then your typical rear drive car transmission and TQ.
#5 The car went through three dyno runs before the over-rev that occurred during the 4th run. Two of these runs were video taped.
#6 The car was in manual mode with a operator using the tap shift paddles mounted on the steering wheel.
#7 The parameters for downshifting the car in manual mode were changed which allowed the car to be manually downshifted at the end of the 4th run. We have data logs proving this and we now have been able to recreate that event on the road.
#8 The TC was placed in a lock position during the 4th run. The manufacture of this TC has stated that this is a no no.
#9 If the tuner and the owner of the shop is reading this I am still willing to work with you to correct this situation. I have not named names publically and I wish you the best in all that you guys are doing. It would be much better to have people say that when these guys make a mistake they work with their customers to fix it then for people to say stay away from them they cannot be trusted.
#10 For all those who think they know who I am talking about please feel free to forward my message on to them.
#11 As for those who would say buyer beware, I can honestly say that if I was told; please understand Mr. Reece we operate under the policy of that we are not responsible for any event that can take place during the tuning session I would not have turned over my key.
Here is a reader’s digest version.
#1 No liability form was offered to me to read and sign explaining my liability even through the tuner used to this. No discussion occurred between any of the parties involved concerning liability. No signs were posted discussing liability. I was told in front of another witness that this would be an easy tune.
In other words liability was secretly assigned to me.
#2 The engine was put together under the guidance of a gentlemen who has a automotive degree. The engine was assembled last fall. The engine was assembled from the bottom up. The transmission was built by a transmission guy with lots of experience and insight in these types of transmissions. The transmission was installed last July.
#3 No n20 was used during the tuning therefore the car was operating way under the build design.
#4 A build list was provided to the tuner months before the tune and he had plenty of time to ask questions directed towards the builders. I state this fact because my car is a front wheel drive car and their transmission and TC can be different then your typical rear drive car transmission and TQ.
#5 The car went through three dyno runs before the over-rev that occurred during the 4th run. Two of these runs were video taped.
#6 The car was in manual mode with a operator using the tap shift paddles mounted on the steering wheel.
#7 The parameters for downshifting the car in manual mode were changed which allowed the car to be manually downshifted at the end of the 4th run. We have data logs proving this and we now have been able to recreate that event on the road.
#8 The TC was placed in a lock position during the 4th run. The manufacture of this TC has stated that this is a no no.
#9 If the tuner and the owner of the shop is reading this I am still willing to work with you to correct this situation. I have not named names publically and I wish you the best in all that you guys are doing. It would be much better to have people say that when these guys make a mistake they work with their customers to fix it then for people to say stay away from them they cannot be trusted.
#10 For all those who think they know who I am talking about please feel free to forward my message on to them.
#11 As for those who would say buyer beware, I can honestly say that if I was told; please understand Mr. Reece we operate under the policy of that we are not responsible for any event that can take place during the tuning session I would not have turned over my key.
06-22-2011, 11:17 AM
#13
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OP, your question contains hidden motives (I should have recognized you from your other thread)... in this case I agree with what Ed and 2xLS1 said.
In your situation (in your other thread), if the shift tables are correct then a downshift will not over-rev the engine (PCM inhibits a downshift until the RPM is safe), unless something goes wrong (transmission failed in a manner causing a lower gear).
Both attorneys will throw this out, car was modified therefore you were racing.
In your situation (in your other thread), if the shift tables are correct then a downshift will not over-rev the engine (PCM inhibits a downshift until the RPM is safe), unless something goes wrong (transmission failed in a manner causing a lower gear).
Both attorneys will throw this out, car was modified therefore you were racing.
06-22-2011, 11:46 AM
#14
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OP, your question contains hidden motives (I should have recognized you from your other thread)... in this case I agree with what Ed and 2xLS1 said.
In your situation (in your other thread), if the shift tables are correct then a downshift will not over-rev the engine (PCM inhibits a downshift until the RPM is safe), unless something goes wrong (transmission failed in a manner causing a lower gear).
Both attorneys will throw this out, car was modified therefore you were racing.
In your situation (in your other thread), if the shift tables are correct then a downshift will not over-rev the engine (PCM inhibits a downshift until the RPM is safe), unless something goes wrong (transmission failed in a manner causing a lower gear).
Both attorneys will throw this out, car was modified therefore you were racing.
06-22-2011, 11:56 AM
#15
Also, if you DO have an attorney, I would assume he would tell you to not do this the way you're doing it.
^^^This comment alone would do it. End of story til I heard from your attorney.
06-22-2011, 12:14 PM
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If this is the case, I would highly suggest retracting all of your threads and posts concerning this. Any mention of litigation would keep a shop/tuner/person from answering you. The term "lawyer up" comes to mind. Airing this out in public is NOT the right way to get something out of the shop.
Also, if you DO have an attorney, I would assume he would tell you to not do this the way you're doing it.
^^^This comment alone would do it. End of story til I heard from your attorney.
Also, if you DO have an attorney, I would assume he would tell you to not do this the way you're doing it.
^^^This comment alone would do it. End of story til I heard from your attorney.
People all over the North American continent are spending their valuable time helping me out for FREE and I would like to say to them publically THANK YOU!!!!!!! A lot of people always talk about what is wrong with the world today; I point to the people who are helping me out and say this is what is right about the world today.
