spark tuning and KR issues
spark tuning and KR issues I am stumped on this one I can't seem to get more than 21* spark out of my camaro without getting knock- I don't get it all the time, but I would say about 75% of the time at WOT only with just 21* spark being commanded and I can't figure out why- to me I should be able to put 26-28* into this thing and feel I am leaving power on the table for sure.
2nd part to this is- I notice when I shift, I drop to like 12* spark and it takes a whole second to come back up to 18* and climb again...there has to be a way to make this faster no? that is a lot of hp being dropped off on a shift and spark recovery- what tables would cause this issue?
As far as the kr is concerned, my only best guess is that my steering shaft rubs my headers and MAYBE under WOT conditions this causes KR? But at the same time I doubt it...I have an aeroforce gauge that monitors KR and my shaft rubs on all the onramps/offramps/turns of the steering wheel and I never see KR flashed up on my gauge when that occurs- only ever at WOT...and my gauge is set to flash at me if I get so much as 0.1KR come up.
The car is my 2002 LS1 Camaro
Mods: 1 7/8 LT headers, no cats, corsa exhaust, Lid, 3.73 gears, 3600 stall, Ford 8.8 rear end, and then a bunch of suspension mods.
My Maf is tuned 99% and I have disabled it to dial in my VE tables which are at about 95% completion right now. WOT I am commanding 12.84 AFR until I get up to close to 6000rpm and then it goes down to 12.5s
I am attaching 2 scans and my config files along with my current tune...the other thing that is messing with me is the shift patterns on this car...I was shifting 1-2 at 6190 when I was asking for 6000rpm and sometimes bouncing off the rev limiter...I lowered the shift rpm to 5925 to try and compensate and now I shift at 5600 rpm when my mph is reached... doesnt make sense to me
Camaro SD tuning Sept 2016.hpt
sept 13 run 3.hpl
Mikes configuration camaro.Channels.xml
mikes graph layout.Graphs.xml
sept 13 run 4.hpl
2nd part to this is- I notice when I shift, I drop to like 12* spark and it takes a whole second to come back up to 18* and climb again...there has to be a way to make this faster no? that is a lot of hp being dropped off on a shift and spark recovery- what tables would cause this issue?
As far as the kr is concerned, my only best guess is that my steering shaft rubs my headers and MAYBE under WOT conditions this causes KR? But at the same time I doubt it...I have an aeroforce gauge that monitors KR and my shaft rubs on all the onramps/offramps/turns of the steering wheel and I never see KR flashed up on my gauge when that occurs- only ever at WOT...and my gauge is set to flash at me if I get so much as 0.1KR come up.
The car is my 2002 LS1 Camaro
Mods: 1 7/8 LT headers, no cats, corsa exhaust, Lid, 3.73 gears, 3600 stall, Ford 8.8 rear end, and then a bunch of suspension mods.
My Maf is tuned 99% and I have disabled it to dial in my VE tables which are at about 95% completion right now. WOT I am commanding 12.84 AFR until I get up to close to 6000rpm and then it goes down to 12.5s
I am attaching 2 scans and my config files along with my current tune...the other thing that is messing with me is the shift patterns on this car...I was shifting 1-2 at 6190 when I was asking for 6000rpm and sometimes bouncing off the rev limiter...I lowered the shift rpm to 5925 to try and compensate and now I shift at 5600 rpm when my mph is reached... doesnt make sense to me
Camaro SD tuning Sept 2016.hpt
sept 13 run 3.hpl
Mikes configuration camaro.Channels.xml
mikes graph layout.Graphs.xml
sept 13 run 4.hpl
1. checl plugs/valve/intake for signs of oil
2. compression test ,write it down
3. make sure you are using the right plug (1 step colder if you are making 30-50% more power than factory might help)
4. use a significant gap if naturally aspirated, use FSM gap (often 0.044" or 0.038")
Best way to now tune timing is with dynometer + egt gauge. Otherwise, play it safe and keep it out of knock region until you can perform knock test.
knock test:
1. find the timing where the engine knocks verify when and where with datalog
2. switch to race fuel or higher octane fuel and re-run the test. if the knock is still present there is a good chance it is "false knock" and you are safe to add timing and de-sensitize the sensor (teflon tape or resistors or programming)
2. compression test ,write it down
3. make sure you are using the right plug (1 step colder if you are making 30-50% more power than factory might help)
4. use a significant gap if naturally aspirated, use FSM gap (often 0.044" or 0.038")
Best way to now tune timing is with dynometer + egt gauge. Otherwise, play it safe and keep it out of knock region until you can perform knock test.
knock test:
1. find the timing where the engine knocks verify when and where with datalog
2. switch to race fuel or higher octane fuel and re-run the test. if the knock is still present there is a good chance it is "false knock" and you are safe to add timing and de-sensitize the sensor (teflon tape or resistors or programming)
is your burst kr table(s) tuned and/or Tq Mgt set to zero? the 12* drop in-between the shifts may be cause the pcm switched from the high octane table to the low octane when it sensed more kr frequently. mine's doing it right now and I only have lid and a tune so im only able to run 24* max til I get headers.
others mentioned already, if you don't have a catch can may be best to get one soon to prevent oil going back into the combustion.
others mentioned already, if you don't have a catch can may be best to get one soon to prevent oil going back into the combustion.
Upshifting hard gives you a few reasons to (true, or false)
detect knock.
You can modify the knock retard fast attack (I like *0.5)
and decay (*2) rate settings to make KR less eager to
jump up, and bleed back down faster. This can (besides
being just better) give you more visibility to what's going
on, and maybe why. If all you have is some tip-in or
upshift ping, then maybe your VE table (which you're
likely to fall back on if MAP surges) is putting you too
lean for the timing, momentarily (but KR hangs around).
Look at NBO2 voltages coincident with KR events to see
if transient lean fueling is your problem.
detect knock.
You can modify the knock retard fast attack (I like *0.5)
and decay (*2) rate settings to make KR less eager to
jump up, and bleed back down faster. This can (besides
being just better) give you more visibility to what's going
on, and maybe why. If all you have is some tip-in or
upshift ping, then maybe your VE table (which you're
likely to fall back on if MAP surges) is putting you too
lean for the timing, momentarily (but KR hangs around).
Look at NBO2 voltages coincident with KR events to see
if transient lean fueling is your problem.
your VE looks horrible. fix it.
MAF curve looks horrible too, fix that.
increase the high rpm disable and the hi/lo rpm threshold. set em at something couple rpm higher than what youre gona shift it at.
set your PE delay rpm to 0, currently at 5.5k rpm
i saw your "3" log and didnt see any knock retard. in order for it to not pull timing during shifts, mess with the minimum spark value at the bottom right on the retard tab.
if you want i can modify the tune free of charge, i have unlimited credits for all vehicles anyways..
*EDIT*
saw some Kr on the "4" log, noticed your engine temp is a bit toasty at 220F, either way, I think you have false knock. throw some torco in it and see if it knocks. But not every ls1 will like 26ish degrees.. sometimes they like less, sometimes they like more. Doesn't matter what that value is, as long as it makes power, you shouldn't worry. Stop going into tuning with a false notion that this car has to accept 2x degrees of timing, when in reality the setup doesnt like anything more than 21 degress.. for example. Ive tuned cars with low timing yank the nuts off of cars with higher timing. You can try to verify mechanical ignition timing with the ignition the computer thinks its throwing. Seen this happen as well, you might command 18 degrees, but in reality the engine is seeing 23 degrees for example, due to "ignition phasing". You could change operating system on your car and could very well accept more ignition timing due to that OS having a different ignition phasing hardwired in the OS. food for thought.
MAF curve looks horrible too, fix that.
increase the high rpm disable and the hi/lo rpm threshold. set em at something couple rpm higher than what youre gona shift it at.
set your PE delay rpm to 0, currently at 5.5k rpm
i saw your "3" log and didnt see any knock retard. in order for it to not pull timing during shifts, mess with the minimum spark value at the bottom right on the retard tab.
if you want i can modify the tune free of charge, i have unlimited credits for all vehicles anyways..
*EDIT*
saw some Kr on the "4" log, noticed your engine temp is a bit toasty at 220F, either way, I think you have false knock. throw some torco in it and see if it knocks. But not every ls1 will like 26ish degrees.. sometimes they like less, sometimes they like more. Doesn't matter what that value is, as long as it makes power, you shouldn't worry. Stop going into tuning with a false notion that this car has to accept 2x degrees of timing, when in reality the setup doesnt like anything more than 21 degress.. for example. Ive tuned cars with low timing yank the nuts off of cars with higher timing. You can try to verify mechanical ignition timing with the ignition the computer thinks its throwing. Seen this happen as well, you might command 18 degrees, but in reality the engine is seeing 23 degrees for example, due to "ignition phasing". You could change operating system on your car and could very well accept more ignition timing due to that OS having a different ignition phasing hardwired in the OS. food for thought.
Last edited by subeone; Sep 18, 2016 at 01:34 AM.
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Stock timing for 2001/2002, at 6000 rpm, 100% throttle, is only 19 deg. For a 2000 it is 28 deg.
1. checl plugs/valve/intake for signs of oil
2. compression test ,write it down
3. make sure you are using the right plug (1 step colder if you are making 30-50% more power than factory might help)
4. use a significant gap if naturally aspirated, use FSM gap (often 0.044" or 0.038")
Best way to now tune timing is with dynometer + egt gauge. Otherwise, play it safe and keep it out of knock region until you can perform knock test.
knock test:
1. find the timing where the engine knocks verify when and where with datalog
2. switch to race fuel or higher octane fuel and re-run the test. if the knock is still present there is a good chance it is "false knock" and you are safe to add timing and de-sensitize the sensor (teflon tape or resistors or programming)
2. compression test ,write it down
3. make sure you are using the right plug (1 step colder if you are making 30-50% more power than factory might help)
4. use a significant gap if naturally aspirated, use FSM gap (often 0.044" or 0.038")
Best way to now tune timing is with dynometer + egt gauge. Otherwise, play it safe and keep it out of knock region until you can perform knock test.
knock test:
1. find the timing where the engine knocks verify when and where with datalog
2. switch to race fuel or higher octane fuel and re-run the test. if the knock is still present there is a good chance it is "false knock" and you are safe to add timing and de-sensitize the sensor (teflon tape or resistors or programming)
I am running 91 octane- don't really have much higher around here, but I will see if I can get some 93 in there.
Will do a compression test in the next week or two- I don't get KR outside of WOT runs and the car runs pretty strong, I don't suspect a compression issue but will verify.
is your burst kr table(s) tuned and/or Tq Mgt set to zero? the 12* drop in-between the shifts may be cause the pcm switched from the high octane table to the low octane when it sensed more kr frequently. mine's doing it right now and I only have lid and a tune so im only able to run 24* max til I get headers.
others mentioned already, if you don't have a catch can may be best to get one soon to prevent oil going back into the combustion.
others mentioned already, if you don't have a catch can may be best to get one soon to prevent oil going back into the combustion.
The torque management table was halfed from the factory numbers if I remember correctly, however, the retard vs % torque reduction table doesn't make sense to me- it asks for 50* retard at 100% ? that doesn't quite make sense?
You have a good point that this could very well be caused by torque management as it is not fully disabled though!
Upshifting hard gives you a few reasons to (true, or false)
detect knock.
You can modify the knock retard fast attack (I like *0.5)
and decay (*2) rate settings to make KR less eager to
jump up, and bleed back down faster. This can (besides
being just better) give you more visibility to what's going
on, and maybe why. If all you have is some tip-in or
upshift ping, then maybe your VE table (which you're
likely to fall back on if MAP surges) is putting you too
lean for the timing, momentarily (but KR hangs around).
Look at NBO2 voltages coincident with KR events to see
if transient lean fueling is your problem.
detect knock.
You can modify the knock retard fast attack (I like *0.5)
and decay (*2) rate settings to make KR less eager to
jump up, and bleed back down faster. This can (besides
being just better) give you more visibility to what's going
on, and maybe why. If all you have is some tip-in or
upshift ping, then maybe your VE table (which you're
likely to fall back on if MAP surges) is putting you too
lean for the timing, momentarily (but KR hangs around).
Look at NBO2 voltages coincident with KR events to see
if transient lean fueling is your problem.
your VE looks horrible. fix it.
MAF curve looks horrible too, fix that.
increase the high rpm disable and the hi/lo rpm threshold. set em at something couple rpm higher than what youre gona shift it at.
set your PE delay rpm to 0, currently at 5.5k rpm
i saw your "3" log and didnt see any knock retard. in order for it to not pull timing during shifts, mess with the minimum spark value at the bottom right on the retard tab.
if you want i can modify the tune free of charge, i have unlimited credits for all vehicles anyways..
*EDIT*
saw some Kr on the "4" log, noticed your engine temp is a bit toasty at 220F, either way, I think you have false knock. throw some torco in it and see if it knocks. But not every ls1 will like 26ish degrees.. sometimes they like less, sometimes they like more. Doesn't matter what that value is, as long as it makes power, you shouldn't worry. Stop going into tuning with a false notion that this car has to accept 2x degrees of timing, when in reality the setup doesnt like anything more than 21 degress.. for example. Ive tuned cars with low timing yank the nuts off of cars with higher timing. You can try to verify mechanical ignition timing with the ignition the computer thinks its throwing. Seen this happen as well, you might command 18 degrees, but in reality the engine is seeing 23 degrees for example, due to "ignition phasing". You could change operating system on your car and could very well accept more ignition timing due to that OS having a different ignition phasing hardwired in the OS. food for thought.
MAF curve looks horrible too, fix that.
increase the high rpm disable and the hi/lo rpm threshold. set em at something couple rpm higher than what youre gona shift it at.
set your PE delay rpm to 0, currently at 5.5k rpm
i saw your "3" log and didnt see any knock retard. in order for it to not pull timing during shifts, mess with the minimum spark value at the bottom right on the retard tab.
if you want i can modify the tune free of charge, i have unlimited credits for all vehicles anyways..
*EDIT*
saw some Kr on the "4" log, noticed your engine temp is a bit toasty at 220F, either way, I think you have false knock. throw some torco in it and see if it knocks. But not every ls1 will like 26ish degrees.. sometimes they like less, sometimes they like more. Doesn't matter what that value is, as long as it makes power, you shouldn't worry. Stop going into tuning with a false notion that this car has to accept 2x degrees of timing, when in reality the setup doesnt like anything more than 21 degress.. for example. Ive tuned cars with low timing yank the nuts off of cars with higher timing. You can try to verify mechanical ignition timing with the ignition the computer thinks its throwing. Seen this happen as well, you might command 18 degrees, but in reality the engine is seeing 23 degrees for example, due to "ignition phasing". You could change operating system on your car and could very well accept more ignition timing due to that OS having a different ignition phasing hardwired in the OS. food for thought.
I don't see how that should effect KR though if I am commanding 12.84 AFR and she is always within 3% of that rich or lean?
you say
increase the high rpm disable and the hi/lo rpm threshold. set em at something couple rpm higher than what youre gona shift it at
The PE delay is below 5,500 rpm - but the delay is 0.0s - shouldn't that nullify the delay? At least I am not seeing a delay on my scans?
Temp is a bit toasty at 220F - I have a 160* t-stat that needs to go in still that I haven't gotten around to swapping in- I am thinking that will help some?
What is torco?
It is not that I am fixated that it needs to take 28* of timing, but I seem to be at stock levels and I was expecting to be able to add timing from stock and actually, at stock levels I am seeing KR which means I should have less than stock timing
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Verdad Gallardo The other thing that makes me lean towards it maybe being false is Run 3 and 4 are back to back - I ran out to go pick something up and did some tuning, run 3 was on the way there, run 4 was on the way home with maybe a 5-10 minute lapse in between as I adjusted the tune for the data I logged. Run 3 has no KR, run 4 does at WOT
sorry but thats not "what the car likes", if you're going to be hardheaded about it then I rather not continue. But you cant have less airmass at a higher MAF frequency and have more airmass at a lower MAF frequency, it just doesn't work that way. Fix your MAF table, and fix your VE table. They should be SMOOTH and increase with load and decrease with less load. The VE is not a good indicator of load, but it should be without a doubt that with an increasing KPA you should have more fuel, more rpm more fuel unless at MBT, ETC.
Torco is a octane booster, pretty much add some race fuel. But yes, I strongly suggest you fix your fuel tables. I also noticed your IFR tables dont look stock. You have aftermarket injectors ?
I agree, and suspect you have false knock.
Torco is a octane booster, pretty much add some race fuel. But yes, I strongly suggest you fix your fuel tables. I also noticed your IFR tables dont look stock. You have aftermarket injectors ?
I agree, and suspect you have false knock.
sorry but thats not "what the car likes", if you're going to be hardheaded about it then I rather not continue. But you cant have less airmass at a higher MAF frequency and have more airmass at a lower MAF frequency, it just doesn't work that way. Fix your MAF table, and fix your VE table. They should be SMOOTH and increase with load and decrease with less load. The VE is not a good indicator of load, but it should be without a doubt that with an increasing KPA you should have more fuel, more rpm more fuel unless at MBT, ETC.
Torco is a octane booster, pretty much add some race fuel. But yes, I strongly suggest you fix your fuel tables. I also noticed your IFR tables dont look stock. You have aftermarket injectors ?
I agree, and suspect you have false knock.
Torco is a octane booster, pretty much add some race fuel. But yes, I strongly suggest you fix your fuel tables. I also noticed your IFR tables dont look stock. You have aftermarket injectors ?
I agree, and suspect you have false knock.
Now that being said, you brought up the hi/low rpm threshold and I am going to set this to both 0 and 8000 rpm for the maf and VE tuning respectively and see if that does smooth out anything anymore. Maybe some of the tune is skewed by the VE / MAF not being fully isolated (even though I believed I did have them isolated maybe I do not with this information now)
But that also being said, I still have trouble seeing that as an issue to this if I am not seeing lean/rich spikes at WOT.
I am with you though- I would love to see them smooth don't get me wrong.
IFR table is stock to the best of my knowledge- I just pulled up the bone stock tune I saved when I bought the car to verify which I attached for reference. I bought this car used, but it was completely bone stock and I have no reason to believe it was anything but stock...but anything is possible when the car wasn't in my possession. What are you seeing that isn't stock? and this may sound silly, but are you viewing the correct "units"? Remember some of my units are set to metric in my files as I am in Canada- not sure if that is playing into things at all?
SOM.hpt
I'm not being hard headed, I fully understand what you are saying and in theory you are 100% correct. But I had this same issue when I tuned my v6, you can smooth that table over so it looks like it is supposed to look, take it out and tune again and she goes right back to what you see- and if you log after you smooth it and bring those dips "up" in the tune- because you're right, in theory it shouldn't take less air at higher rpm ...but it goes super rich when it hits that cell if you smooth it.
Now that being said, you brought up the hi/low rpm threshold and I am going to set this to both 0 and 8000 rpm for the maf and VE tuning respectively and see if that does smooth out anything anymore. Maybe some of the tune is skewed by the VE / MAF not being fully isolated (even though I believed I did have them isolated maybe I do not with this information now)
But that also being said, I still have trouble seeing that as an issue to this if I am not seeing lean/rich spikes at WOT.
I am with you though- I would love to see them smooth don't get me wrong.
IFR table is stock to the best of my knowledge- I just pulled up the bone stock tune I saved when I bought the car to verify which I attached for reference. I bought this car used, but it was completely bone stock and I have no reason to believe it was anything but stock...but anything is possible when the car wasn't in my possession. What are you seeing that isn't stock? and this may sound silly, but are you viewing the correct "units"? Remember some of my units are set to metric in my files as I am in Canada- not sure if that is playing into things at all?
Attachment 551273
Now that being said, you brought up the hi/low rpm threshold and I am going to set this to both 0 and 8000 rpm for the maf and VE tuning respectively and see if that does smooth out anything anymore. Maybe some of the tune is skewed by the VE / MAF not being fully isolated (even though I believed I did have them isolated maybe I do not with this information now)
But that also being said, I still have trouble seeing that as an issue to this if I am not seeing lean/rich spikes at WOT.
I am with you though- I would love to see them smooth don't get me wrong.
IFR table is stock to the best of my knowledge- I just pulled up the bone stock tune I saved when I bought the car to verify which I attached for reference. I bought this car used, but it was completely bone stock and I have no reason to believe it was anything but stock...but anything is possible when the car wasn't in my possession. What are you seeing that isn't stock? and this may sound silly, but are you viewing the correct "units"? Remember some of my units are set to metric in my files as I am in Canada- not sure if that is playing into things at all?
Attachment 551273
Units dont matter as my hpt opens up your file in the units i have set it up at. I have an 01 and my "stock" IFR dont go in the 30's lb/hr at +80kpa, just something to look at. The reason why this matters is because fuel consumption is correlated with air flow and that dictates timing in terms of where the g/cyl fall in, torque management, and transient fueling will also be affected as a result. Youll gain a lot of midrange power just by fixing your fueling, try to increase your counts in the histogram to filter out afr spikes.
I know its hard, but once you get the fueling right, everything else will fall into place. I know you argue that the WOT fuel is accurate, but the airflow model won't be and alot of things depend on the airflow model. Make sure when you tune the airflow tables to not have drastic transient, I.E. try to keep a constant rpm, speed until the AFR settles down. then rinse and repeat with as much of the rpm/speed combinations you can.
in terms of timing, your spark table needs some help as well. It is very choppy with some values higher in the lower g/cyl portion rather than decreasing with increasing g/cyl. Try to smooth values where it is very "choppy". Try to have a smooth transition between values so the power delivery feels smooth and "natural".
Hope you don't take it the wrong way.
Look at this VE table, its from a 9xx whp truck I tuned last week. Truck is running on 160 lb injectors, yet look at how "smooth" the VE looks. Theres no hard spikes or rough transitions, and the AFR error is +-4% in the lower load area due to the size of the injector but you can appreciate how it should somewhat look like.
Look at this VE table, its from a 9xx whp truck I tuned last week. Truck is running on 160 lb injectors, yet look at how "smooth" the VE looks. Theres no hard spikes or rough transitions, and the AFR error is +-4% in the lower load area due to the size of the injector but you can appreciate how it should somewhat look like.
so is the only remaining isolation factor that I missed the rpm threshold? I eliminated the LTFT, STFTs, OL/CL variables before...and when I tuned my VE I failed P0101, 02, 03 and unplugged the MAF so that I was only using VE data...
I'll have to look at the IFR then, really weird that would be different- this thing was as bone stock as they come and needed some maintenance attention when I first got her.
I totally forget how to tune IFR so I will need to look back into that and feed that into the mix.
Timing table is still being worked on- Keep in mind I switched over all the timing tables - High, low, max torque timing, idle spark advance, etc, etc to one from a Holden Monaro and have been building it off that. So yes, they are choppy because I am working on them currently, but they are also different from our North American LS1 tunes. That probably has to do with the Lean Cruise (which is why I swapped all the spark tables)
I'll have to look at the IFR then, really weird that would be different- this thing was as bone stock as they come and needed some maintenance attention when I first got her.
I totally forget how to tune IFR so I will need to look back into that and feed that into the mix.
Timing table is still being worked on- Keep in mind I switched over all the timing tables - High, low, max torque timing, idle spark advance, etc, etc to one from a Holden Monaro and have been building it off that. So yes, they are choppy because I am working on them currently, but they are also different from our North American LS1 tunes. That probably has to do with the Lean Cruise (which is why I swapped all the spark tables)
update on the IFR tables- apparently there are 3 part numbers for Camaros- I would have the 28.8lb injectors- I pulled 2 other stock LS1 2002 Camaro tunes off the repository on hptuners and the IFR tables are the same as I have- so no issues there.
I agree with the others that posted that the VE table and MAF need to be re-done. When they look like that its an instant red flag something is not right. Your either not getting good data when logging or something is wrong mechanically. Its usually not good data. I would get the tune dialed in perfect and then worry about lean cruise. Every 4th gen I had usually got 26-28 mpg on the highway once tuned correctly, wasnt worth the trouble to do lean cruise IMO. Lean cruise cant just be turned on and takes a lot of tuning and data logging to even make work and it still wont work like it does i the holdens and thats assuming your tune is dead on before trying lean cruise.
(220F) of coolant temperature range; it's all in, long ago
(like 175F give or take) but so is the stock 180-ish 'stat
(195-ish).
I do suggest getting your coolant temps to be stable and
consistent; just that that part will not do anything about
it. Fans, cleaning fins and fatter core are where it's at. The
best thing you can do with a 160 is return for refund or
sell to someone who doesn't realize it has no benefit on
these motors. More of a throwback to iron head SBC days.
I agree, leave the OEM thermostat in the engine. The last thing you do to an engine that has an overheating problem is lower the thermostat opening point. It will exacerbate the issue, partially masking it in some situations (allowing you to drive some miles), and in others (a while later after you are 15 miles from home) you will not notice the temp problem and something will pop or explode.