PeteS160

Hello, I'm posting this here looking for input, suggestions, general feed back and to see if anyone is interested in helping further develop some features of this app.

The problem I see is a pcm that's almost 20 years old is still any thing but simple or cheap to be able to do any thing to. Given the advancements in technology I'm surprised that we haven't seen more open source tuning products like a lot of other car brands have seen.

Cost to flash pcm using open source tools - $290~ for the AVT interface the follow tools use..... success varies
About 3 years ago dimented24x7 released his flash tool in this thread. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-prom/696609-houston-we-have-reflash.html
About 4 years ago Pcmhacking released this tool https://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3111

Commercial Tools to flash and tune - $600-$1000
Efi Live
Hp Tuners

Hand Held Tuners - $250-$500
Basic Performance/Economy tunes that are 50 state legal.

Android Flash Proof of Concept
About 9 months ago I started tinkering with Android and I was amazed at how much processing power is packed into a modern smart phone. Well a few months back I was having a conversion with a couple of guys about another smart phone app I created and they were like you should take this to the next level.....how cool it would be to be able to "Mod" your car with a smart phone. I wrote off the comments as a couple of drunks rambling but as time wore on the idea was nagging at the back of my head....what if it was possible. I'm a facts person, meaning until I can see proof something can't be done or you can mathematically prove it then it's still possible. So I decided to see if my initial thoughts that's of it being ludicrous to think a phone could flash a pcm with any type of Elm Bluetooth dongle was even possible. I sat down and spent about 3 or 4 hours tinkering with things and data logging some commercial flash tools. I then wrote some macros to mimic the commands and headers that were being used and "played" the macros back while reading the pcm's log in another window and I about fell out of my chair when I was able to change 1 digit of the pcm's serial number. That was enough to make me start putting some time into trying to see just how far I could go and well....I haven't reached the limit yet.



Depending on what the app ends up being able to do this will likely end up being a free or very inexpensive with likely no vehicle limits like hand held tuners. It's hard to think that a Pcm thats been around for almost 20 years is still so costly to make any changes too yet brand new cell phones are being cracked and rooted within days of them being released.

Thoughts, questions, comments or suggestions welcome......

Thanks


Alpha Versions of Ls Droid
Version 5.2
No longer supported
Version 5.3.0
No longer supported
Version 5.3.1.1
No longer supported



*********************** UPDATE 4/17/19**************************
Ls Droid has moved to an open Beta.....
ls-droid.com

*********************** UPDATE 4/21/19**************************
Ls droid has been updated to Beta V0.2.0
All forms of write are now avaible for the P01 and P59 computers
See this post for details

*********************** UPDATE 7/26/20**************************
Official Ls Droid website W/Download links

If you run into an issue the best source for support is the Ls Droid Facebook Group

gametech

iTrader: (1)

You should collaborate with the HPT/EFI guys to allow their software to function with Android/Linux. Don't re-invent the wheel, just make it roll smoother for everybody. An Android capable full tuning suite would be a moneymaker for everyone.

pantera_efi

iTrader: (1)

Hi Pete, your GUI could be made more simple.

I will help if you ask ?

Lance

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

He doesnt want advice Lance, he wants to be told how wonderful his idea is. Notice the complete lack of enthusiasm gained here. See, I was right, and Im not afraid to admit it.

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

Be great if you could tune and logg from your phone.

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

Not sure phones have that much computing data yet......

PeteS160

Your in the wrong thread, this is not about tow/haul.

G Atsma

Not a single post above mentions Tow/Haul. Are YOU in the right thread?

PeteS160

To keep this thread on track he's some comparison data for how far phones have come and what's actually required using commerical tuning suites like Hp Tuners or Efi Live.

Samsung S7
Chipset Exynos 8890 -Class, Octa-core processor
CPU Octa-core (4 physical cores @2.3 GHz ) +(4 physical cores@1.6 GHz)
GPU Mali-T880 MP12 @ 2560x1440 resolution
MEMORY 4 GB RAM

Hp Tuners minimum requirements
HP Tuners VCM Suite Windows 7 Minimum system requirments

• 1 GH CPU
• 512 Mb RAM
• USB 1.1

EfiLive minimum requirements
Configuration Recommended Minimum
1 CPU Pentium class @ 500MHz
Memory min 32Mb
USB 1.1

Usb 1.1
USB 1.1 maximum transfer rate of 12Mbits/second.

Bluetooth
Bluetooth 4.0 speeds are similar to Bluetooth 3.0 of up to 25Mbps.

SD Card Storage:
Using the S7 as an example the phones will accept up to 256 gig XC-1 Sd card
Read speeds of 80 mbps in real world testing
Write speeds of 40Mbps in real world testing

Common 5400 RPM HDD found in laptop computers
Partition to partition write speed is around 19 MB/sec
An average IDE drive @5400 Rpm should manage a sustained transfer rate of about 50-60 MB/s to another drive that's similar




Now that you've had a chance to glance over the comparisons it's pretty easy to see that phones have advanced well beyond even minimum requirements of "Modern" turning software. I can think of a few reasons that the big players have stayed out of the mobile market and the biggest one that comes to mind is change. Companies have developed a product that has worked well for years using a PC type computer. They only continue to add to the existing software that they have already developed and since it requires no additional cost to create new software they are unwilling to advance.

Now I'm not by any means advocating that a full blown tuning suit on a phone would be in any way superior or even on the same level as a Pc based program. I would take the PC any day of the week for easy of use working on a bin file. However reading and writing that bin file with a laptop is cumbersome and a bit risky a lot of the time. Laptops simply are not designed for use in a vehicle, so reading or flashing a bin can be a bit of a chore especially if the file will be modified on a different computer and need to be transferred by flash drive or by email.


Some Drawbacks of the laptop method currently in use

If you change gear ratio or even tire size.....currently your only option if to drag out the laptop and reflash the calibration unless you have a vehicle locked hand held tuner.
Change the speed/Rpm limiter......your dragging out the laptop
Change shift points....yep you'll need that laptop
Start your Ls swapped car for the 1st time.....if the pcm wasn't bench flashed... yup you'll be needing that laptop
Disable downstream o2 codes after your cat delete......damn that laptop gets dragged around a lot.
And when you do turn on your laptop you'll find out windows has to finish update's before you can even use the damn thing. Now you need to make sure the laptop battery is changed enough for you to read the pcm, make the changes you need and then reflash the calibration....... and you also need to make sure you tuned the key off after reading the pcm or the car's battery is likely to go dead while your re-flashing the pcm.

PeteS160

Same guy was bashing a free app I posted in another thread.

G Atsma

OK, but along with the bashing were some good questions and advice from some very knowledgeable people on how to make it apply to the audience in this forum. You want people to use what you offer, LISTEN to those trying to help you! Don't go all superior on us here! Lance Nist of Pantera, for example, has been around this stuff (including what you do) longer than many of us have been alive. Don't shine him on. He could tell you a thing or two. Accept the feedback people offer, and you will move your product.

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

Sorry I thought this was a copy and paste. After reading it my honest opinion is you are sorta in the same boat as the other thread. I'm not trying to be a negative Nancy but I'm a realistic thinker. Very very few people need to read or change a vin. When it can data log Or actually alter the pcm file then you'll be on to something. Even if it's simple like tire swap changes or disabling SES lights permanently. Until then it sounds like a useful gadget that very few people will actually need. And again, I don't think phones can process that type of information enough to be useful. IF they could, suites like hptuners would already have it developed don't ya think?

PeteS160

It's been asked on both forums a number of times in the past and both companies have made it clear they were not really interested. It'll be more likely you will be able to run Hp Tuners/Efi Live using windows ARM on an Android Device. But that still doesn't overcome the licensing issue. Well.....technically I can already overcome the licensing on either but it's the point that a computer that's nearly 20 years old is still restricted the same way it was when it was the hottest thing on the market.

There have been a number of people that have created solutions but never bothered to finish them or expand the programs capabilities past a single pcm. As they people walked away or lost interest in this the project rather then opensource the work they've done they choose to stash it away making others start from scratch rather then letting someone else build in their work.

If you look at the import crowed they have a number of opensource or very inexpensive tuning/flashing options and that's because a lot of them worked together to get to where they are today. I have spoken with 3 individuals in the last couple of months all who are more then capable of creating Read/Write programs but they don't have the desire to work on things like this any more. The hardware is no longer the limiting factor as is was a number of years ago, there are other much cheaper options then the AVT interface that has been proven to work . I have proof of that on my desk, I have an unbranded interface of questionable build quality that's able to flash 512K or 1mb pcm's....and it cost less then $10 bucks in parts to build buying from websites like Mouser or Dig-key. Yet once again.... the software it use's it unstable and buggy with no support.

PeteS160

I messaged him before I posted a single response in this thread.

I'm looking for input from people that can see the potential of what I'm working on. In my app's current state it's going to have a very few that understand what i'm doing but may be able to take it to the next level.

gametech

iTrader: (1)

Your explanation doesn't really surprise me. However, it would be awesome to do normal full tuning at the desktop, then be able to do flashes and logging with the cellphone. I suppose it does make sense that paid tuning software would be kept away from open source platforms, as that would probably negate their ability to enforce licensing.

PeteS160

It's not the intent of the app but currently it can circumvent Vin number and Serial number Pcm licensing used by both big tuning companies.......but your right it's not like any one's ever tried to save a buck licensing a pcm.

The app IS writing to the pcm even just changing the vin number or serial number. I'm using block write mode and writing to the the pcm's NvRam using mode 28 to silence the bus, mode 27 to unlock the pcm and mode 34 to send the data being altered to the physical address the data is stored in the NvRam , when the apps done writing it reboots the pcm and the changes made to the NvRam are loaded onto the flash chip making the changes no different then if it had just as if it had been done as a calibration only flash. The difference between this method and a calibration flash is you can plug pull while writing to the NvRam with no damage to the pcm or any of the data contained on the pcm's flash chip making it much safer for the pcm while I was working out a Read/Write method using Android W/Bluetooth dongle.

gametech

iTrader: (1)

Just a thought, but I currently have Android radios in 2 of my cars, and have played with ELM bluetooth adapters. It would be awesome to have tuning capability utilizing my in-dash stereo. This would be even more convenient than using a phone.

PeteS160

That is the exact thing that started the conversation for android based pcm flashing. The app I have does work on android car radios but the display doesn't scale real well since it's setup for a portrait display currently. I had considered also writing a data logging app that could run on an android head unit but given the amount of apps like torque in the playstore it just didn't seem like it would be all that useful. I personally can't stand app's like torque simply because of the display. I prefer commercial scan tool type data feeds but that's because it's what I've used in my line of work for the last 20 years.

Is there actually a need for an app that's only focus is data logging for tuning purposes?

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

Flashes and logging from a phone? Sounds great but my phone rarely runs any apps without glitching in some form or fashion. If you can't run facebook without ******* up, I'm not using you to tune my cars PCM. Plain and simple.

qweedqwag

Get rid of your shitty Walmart phone. LMAO.