Palm Beach Z

I ordered the LS1 Edit, then found out that the PCM is locked by Ed Wright! Dave at Carputing said that I coulds go back to a stock program.
How can I do that now? I have all kinds of codes deleted, EGR, AIR, etc...The car runs fairly well with Ed's programming, although the HP #'s seem low. I just wanted to be able to tweak it a little with the LS1 Edit. <img src="gr_sad.gif" border="0">
I don't know what to do now?

Ryan K

iTrader: (11)

Yes you can delete any code with LS1 Edit...

Ryan <img src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" />

[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Ryan Karasek ]</p>

HalfMoon

[quote]Originally posted by Palm Beach Z:
<strong>I ordered the LS1 Edit, then found out that the PCM is locked by Ed Wright! Dave at Carputing said that I coulds go back to a stock program.
How can I do that now? I have all kinds of codes deleted, EGR, AIR, etc...The car runs fairly well with Ed's programming, although the HP #'s seem low. I just wanted to be able to tweak it a little with the LS1 Edit. <img src="gr_sad.gif" border="0">
I don't know what to do now?</strong><hr></blockquote>


Buy another PCM from ValveGod or another source.

Drive the car down to a dealership with your ED W. PCM in place.

Install the blank PCM and have the dealership flash it.

I left out the details of getting them to do it cause each dealership is gonna be different, one might be cool and do it for you while you wait and another may make you pay and give you a hard time.

I'd call some dealers first and see what you come up with.

BTW, I paid $150 shipped for a spare PCM from ValveGod, according to Ken@carputing you need the dealer to flash the PCM since Ls1Edit won't write the entire PCM.

About the Ed W. PCM: If it's protected you'll need to start from scratch, but honestly from everything I'm reading about LT1Edit and LS1Edit that's where you want to start anyway, no sense trying to figure out some other hacked code, just start from stock.

Also, if you do it this way you can have 2 PCMs just in case you want to compare them back to back on a dyno or the track w/o a notebook and LS1Edit handy.

Team ZR-1

Swapping a PCM in a dealers parking lot may be easier on a f-body but not in a C5 where the PCM is buried and you have to jack the car up, yank the front right wheel, remove the interwell and fight the unit out/in.

That locking crap was done esp to screw the car owner from switching to doing their own PCM calibrations and is uncalled for by both that vendor and that cole.
Being it was G.M copyrighted flash code I would demand that tuner return your stock code at their expense.
As you can see that tees the heck out of me :-(
I know a about those vendors having a secret meeting coming up with this locking scheme when they heard und user products were coming out.
Hell about time people find out how easy and cheap it is for them to make a few cal changes and charge crazy prices and then lock your own property up as if they owned your car :-(

G.M has an SPS re-programmer it does on board and off board flashing. I would find a dealer or other source and do it off board.
SPS can be bought by Ease but its not cheap but you get 1 years worth of C/Ds that have every new flash G.M has on it.

[quote]Originally posted by HalfMoon:
<strong>

Buy another PCM from ValveGod or another source.

Drive the car down to a dealership with your ED W. PCM in place.

Install the blank PCM and have the dealership flash it.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Team ZR-1 ]</p>

Palm Beach Z

[quote]Originally posted by Team ZR-1:
<strong>
That locking crap was done esp to screw the car owner from switching to doing their own PCM calibrations and is uncalled for by both that vendor and that cole.



[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Team ZR-1 ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


Yea, I can't believe I have to go through all this! <img src="graemlins/gr_barf.gif" border="0" alt="[barf]" /> I'm thinking seriously about just getting a MAFT and see where that takes me. I'm not sure if I would ever get the car to run right with the cam, heads and LS1 Edit/ I'm no computer wizard, that's for sure. <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0">

66ImpalaLT1

Ken Kelly @ Carputing can sell you a spare pcm programmed for you car. Email him, his prices are very reasonable.

Eric

Team ZR-1

*&%$@# !

I feel for you, that really sucks.
Hey you know what new business to get into.
Selling PCMs with stock code on them.
I warned people last year when I heard avout this secret key crap and was sworn at, banned, etc for everyone paying those $500 a pop tuners were gods to the auto, now people will see how easy it is to use a good program that allows you to tune a PCM, gotta be even easier then those of us who bur e-proms for our ECM based Corvettes.

I think you would find it is much easier then you think to do your own tuning, for at least there will be a ton og use car owners now tuning and as you know we help each other so I think you'd get tuned OK.
You don't have to be a wizard, your using a program with menus and screen's its just selecting the proper values to put in those tables and hell we'll all teach each other for a quick learning curve, its cyberspace, e-mail and forum away from getting your answers.

I may be in your shoes, I am waiting for my LS1-Edit to arrive and then I have to see if the PL code on my'99 is also locked but I don't think those tuners started that scam until last yeat so all those who did give em the big bucks will find out they also gave them the keys to their PCM and by rights G.M can refuse to reflash when they see their code has been locked.

[quote]Originally posted by Palm Beach Z:
<strong>

Yea, I can't believe I have to go through all this! <img src="graemlins/gr_barf.gif" border="0" alt="[barf]" /> I'm thinking seriously about just getting a MAFT and see where that takes me. I'm not sure if I would ever get the car to run right with the cam, heads and LS1 Edit/ I'm no computer wizard, that's for sure. <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>

HalfMoon

[quote]Originally posted by Team ZR-1:
<strong>*&%$@# !

I feel for you, that really sucks.
Hey you know what new business to get into.
Selling PCMs with stock code on them.
I warned people last year when I heard avout this secret key crap and was sworn at, banned, etc for everyone paying those $500 a pop tuners were gods to the auto, now people will see how easy it is to use a good program that allows you to tune a PCM, gotta be even easier then those of us who bur e-proms for our ECM based Corvettes.

I think you would find it is much easier then you think to do your own tuning, for at least there will be a ton og use car owners now tuning and as you know we help each other so I think you'd get tuned OK.
You don't have to be a wizard, your using a program with menus and screen's its just selecting the proper values to put in those tables and hell we'll all teach each other for a quick learning curve, its cyberspace, e-mail and forum away from getting your answers.

I may be in your shoes, I am waiting for my LS1-Edit to arrive and then I have to see if the PL code on my'99 is also locked but I don't think those tuners started that scam until last yeat so all those who did give em the big bucks will find out they also gave them the keys to their PCM and by rights G.M can refuse to reflash when they see their code has been locked.

</strong><hr></blockquote>


I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I think I have to ask one question:

I guess you don't believe in preventing software piracy and protecting your business investment?

I say that if you paid to have your PCM programmed and it's locked (Like My PCM), then you shouldn't be upset. If it works for you then you got what you paid for. Now move on and use LS1Edit on a fresh PCM if you want to, or look at your other options.

Working in the Software and Hardware field we invent new ways to keep competitors and clients from reverse engineering our work, this ensures that you can keep some type of control on your future.

Getting a functioning modification to your PCM and complaining about not getting to copy it would be like telling Microsoft "I bought Windows XP Professional, you owe me all the source code and build environment variables.". I'm sure Ed or Mike Morgan, or the other in house tuners would charge alot more for a PCM if they were to just give you all the fruits of their labor figuring it out, heck all it would take is one joker with a cheesy website to copy it and undercut them by 50% and that's it.

This is my opinion, it usually doesn't mean much, but sometimes I gotta express it. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: HalfMoon ]</p>

slow

iTrader: (7)

i dont see that you should have to get the code for windows...however, you should have the option of deleting windows, and loading your own operating system on the computer

Does this seem fair?

This guy needs to buy a new computer, because he loaded software onto it, it locked his pcm.

Its a double edge sword but you should be able to delete windows, and load linux if you so desire.

I agree with not getting the ed wright info, (although that woudl be nice to get, but you didnt pay for the info, just the working version)

Ryan

[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: slow ]</p>

HalfMoon

[quote]Originally posted by slow:
<strong>i dont see that you should have to get the code for windows...however, you should have the option of deleting windows, and loading your own operating system on the computer

Does this seem fair?

This guy needs to buy a new computer, because he loaded software onto it, it locked his pcm.

Its a double edge sword but you should be able to delete windows, and load linux if you so desire.

I agree with not getting the ed wright info, (although that woudl be nice to get, but you didnt pay for the info, just the working version)

Ryan

[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: slow ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ryan,

He doesn't need another PCM, I suggested it earlier because he seemed to consider the money he put into the one Ed W. Programmed usefull.

He can get it flashed back to stock at any dealership and alot of performance shops.

Worst case is that he has to pay the dealer or other shop 1 hour labor to do it. No big deal. He bought LS1Edit for $550 and admits he doesn't know much about the programming aspects of the software so I figure 1 hour labor to get a fresh PCM flash isn't that big of a deal to him, I know I didn't mind buying another PCM for modifications.

[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: HalfMoon ]</p>

Ryan K

iTrader: (11)

You guys are blowing this all out of proportion! Like I said up top, just go to the dealer and have it flashed back to stock. You will not have any issues with deleting the codes at all. Just make sure you have the Editor bofore you set it back to stock. Then once its it stock, download the PCM and start editing. The interface is pretty straight forward and most people should not have problems making the basic changes needed. Most likey right off the bat, the only thing you are gonna need to do is raise your idle and delete the codes that pop up. The stock calibration will work till you figure the rest out.

I do recomend getting a spare PCM, but just as a back up incase something bad happens. they should both be flashed back to stock.

Ryan K. <img src="graemlins/gr_judge.gif" border="0" alt="[judgement]" />

Team ZR-1

Some differences in this case then someone who wrote software.

The key does not stop from copying it, it prevents any other vendor from reading it (the flash) since it is owned by G.M in the first place and re-calibrate the PCM, that not stealing tuners code, its tuning the PCM and key is there to screw over the end user who has chosen to use another vendors product, not some pirate.

When you buy computer software it does not have to go back to another vendor who owned the code in the first place and get updated patches that may be safety in nature.

In this case, you lose control of your own PCM and cannot obtain FREE patches (warranty) G.M has, you have to go back to the vendor who locked out your PCM and pay them for code that they do not own to install the patches of G.Ms.

Most customers were not informed the product they were buying had a secret code that was to prevent the owner from having other G.M code fixes done by any G.M service center.

Being G.M owns the code and EPA contols what is done to it, then the vendor should have supplied a way to un-install the software just as you do for a computer program that once deleted the computer is in the state it was before.

There is one thing to protect your product from being copied and another when the key is put in solely as spite in saying you continue to pay me or here is some hell to get your PCM back to a stock state so you can go use a different vendors product.

Products like Ls1-edit are doing it the right way, save the state you were in before installing their product and for any reason you eant to go back, they give you the process to do so.

Your on a trip, your car fails, you go to a dealer, due to the lock, the tech cannot overwrite the PCM to correct the failure.
They are instructed to follow G.M and EPA and thus will not force a total overwrite.
Now your screwed, no access to flash, and dealer has no spare PCM.

So for a simple reason of spite, your stuck and that lock into G.Ms code is not the same as a stand alone software package.

Now I hear some of those tuners also writing code so that PCM lies to smog I/M 240 tests.
They have to for they gave you no backward path to put stock code back on long enough to do smog tests and if caught, its the owner who gets the $2,500 fine.

So my whole point is the PCM code has to allow the car owner, on his own return to a stock flash whenever they choose to and not be handcuffed to pay the same vendor who put the key in, to blow out his product, put it back the way it was and you suffer for it which includes the downtime on the car while the PCM is sitting in that tuners shop waiting to get wacked, and I assure you the tuner will not be in a hurry for the $75 job when he has 50 waiting to get the $500 a pop of flashing his code onto a PCM.

Lastly, lets not forget they are not selling you software they wrote, you are paying for values to be changed in G.M's tables or turning bits on and off, so its not like your protecting some source code.
So the best path is to use a product like LS1-Edit for it gives you total control of what is on your own PCM and free to return to stock flash code when need be.

Now if it was the programmer tool itself that would be aother story in protecing its source code.

[quote]Originally posted by HalfMoon:
<strong>


I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I think I have to ask one question:

I guess you don't believe in preventing software piracy and protecting your business investment?

I say that if you paid to have your PCM programmed and it's locked (Like My PCM), then you shouldn't be upset. If it works for you then you got what you paid for. Now move on and use LS1Edit on a fresh PCM if you want to, or look at your other options.

Working in the Software and Hardware field we invent new ways to keep competitors and clients from reverse engineering our work, this ensures that you can keep some type of control on your future.

This is my opinion, it usually doesn't mean much, but sometimes I gotta express it. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Ryan K

iTrader: (11)

Team ZR-1,
At no time did anybody say the dealer can't overwrite the Aftermarket tune. The dealer can ALWAYS reprogram your car. The Tunner can however prevent you from reading the contents of the PCM. And the dealer never does "patches" if they ever have to update the PCM, the entire contents of the PCM are overwritten.

Ryan <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

HalfMoon

[quote]Originally posted by Team ZR-1:
<strong>When you buy computer software it does not have to go back to another vendor who owned the code in the first place and get updated patches that may be safety in nature.

In this case, you lose control of your own PCM and cannot obtain FREE patches (warranty) G.M has, you have to go back to the vendor who locked out your PCM and pay them for code that they do not own to install the patches of G.Ms.

Now I hear some of those tuners also writing code so that PCM lies to smog I/M 240 tests.
They have to for they gave you no backward path to put stock code back on long enough to do smog tests and if caught, its the owner who gets the $2,500 fine.

Lastly, lets not forget they are not selling you software they wrote, you are paying for values to be changed in G.M's tables or turning bits on and off, so its not like your protecting some source code.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Without going to long winded here (I'm tired), We're all big boys and girls, or should be if we're here.

The Software comparison was just an example, but there are plenty of devices out there that need to go back to the manufacturer for updates that we dela with every day, Cellphones, Radar Detectors, etc.

Like I said before, I didn't send my only PCM out to be tuned, i sent a spare. This is the only logical solution IMO if you are not going to be in control.
As long as the actual Flash Lock register still has it's bits set to 1 you can get it flashed back. if you flip the bits to 0 nobody will ever be able to write to the flash as you cannot change those bits back to a 1 once they've been flipped. If a pro-tuned PCM I wanted flashed was in my hands I can guarantee you that I could walk into our local dealer and have it flashed, only minor complaining would be needed if anything at all.

About the Smog issues: If you asked for that stuff to be modified, you need to shoulder the burdon. It's your call, if you can't afford the bill don't play the game.

About the last section I left, yes, you are paying for modifications to the tables that GM wrote, that's why they charged $500 for a tune instead of $3000. It's not like anyone that can read thinks they are getting a complete new code re-write.. this is like an OS Upgrade, you pay a reduced price for a "modification" to old code.

I hear what you are saying, but I also believe that there is a market for everything,and it's the consumers responsibility to know what they are getting into..

Lets see 3 months from now how many "I damaged my car with LS1Edit, I should've gone to a pro" messages show up. People are too eager to jump in not knowing what's involved.

slow

iTrader: (7)

im new to this whole ls1 edit thing, and have not bought one yet.

Can you normally pull the program out of the stock PCM, save it, and then upload a new version, with the old one archived? yes, no?

If yes, then he should be able to archive the "locked" version, and be able to upload it back to his pcm if he wants to. Im assuming its all vin specific, so the locked code, if pulled from his computer, will only work on his car correct?

But from what i understand, is he can not remove this "locked" version from the pcm with the ls1 edit, and will have to get the dealer involved, am i correct on this assumsion? So now the dealer kows his pcm needs reflashing whatever, so they know he worked on his pcm, something that is you want to keep a warranty, you do not want the dealer knowing you played with correct?

Ryan.

Team ZR-1

Ryan,
I am going by what I know as a SAE member and having HS300 standards.
Under new EPA ruling is the repair tech in seeing the Cal ID is no longer what it was for the M.Y is not supposted to reflash.
When a Tech II is used and the tuner locked the code, when tech answers yes that the VIN number is correct, the flash will fail.
He would have to ansswer NO to the VIN number and force a re-flash.
Due to changes of EPA, G.M is even changing how flashed are done and even limiting who can use or own a SPS. I can sell SPS but you have to now fill a form and sign stating your a legal repair shop.

So yes a tech could re-flash, but if the shop is going by G.M mandates or EPA they would'nt.

Thus there is no reason a tuner should raise the flag at all with a secret key that a customer going to a G.M dealer gets wacked for a non G.M flash and void warranty. Thus my point of inserting a secret key that introduces a possible issue when that key hase no bearing with the functioning of that tuners product.

This key was done on the sly never telling the customer of it before they bought the product.
If known and in writing, then it would be customers fault later on for they knew the rules.

[quote]Originally posted by Ryan Karasek:
<strong>Team ZR-1,
At no time did anybody say the dealer can't overwrite the Aftermarket tune. The dealer can ALWAYS reprogram your car. The Tunner can however prevent you from reading the contents of the PCM. And the dealer never does "patches" if they ever have to update the PCM, the entire contents of the PCM are overwritten.

Ryan <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Palm Beach Z

Well, I agree with everyone here.
I cancelled my order for the LS1 Edit. At this time I just can't afford all the extra time, effort and expence that I'll have to go through. The car runs decent now anyway, with Ed's programming.
Dave from Carputing said that in the near future they'll have the capability to program the PCM completely with a stock program. That way, those of us that have a locked-up PCM can start from scratch.
For the time being, I've ordered a MAFT and will go from there.
Thanks for all the input. <img src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" border="0" alt="[hail]" />

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Palm Beach Z ]</p>

DCPunkSteve

I don't think that any company can prevent you from altering, or accessing you own equipment. Last I checked copywrite laws only legaly prevented you from distributing thier software, and copying it for financial gain, or in anyway that could be detrimental to there product protection. It DOES NOT prevent the user from altering, copying for backup uses only, or uninstaling the product, and does not entitle the company to essentialy "hi-jack" the hardware.
I know if I bought an operating system for my pc, and it locked into my machine, and I had to take it to an authorised dealer to unistal that operating system, destroying that software in the process, and anyway to recover my intitial investment in that software, just so I could instal another operating system that might be in compition, I would be taking them to federal court! Especialy if they didn't warn me before the instal. Micro Soft has done less to get the attention of congress! I tell you that if this was on PCs insted of our PCMs, they would have been sued into oblivion long ago.

Palm Beach Z

I wonder if an attorney could push the issue and Ed would send me the file? <img src="images/icons/confused.gif" border="0">

2000 Silver Z

There has got to be a way around this "lock" so to speak on our computers. I currently have no use for LS1 edit BUT I feel the pain of some people who's PCM's are locked.

There have got to be some coders on this site who can get around the lock or even crack it, NO code is unbreakable. Time for some reasearch in exactly how the computer operates, if people can re-program DSS sat cards this PCM lock can't be that hard to get around........It just a matter of how much reasearch and time one/team wants to put into it.