LS1dude

I am one that has been locked out of my own
Property , property that I pay $475 per month
plus my insurance .

I just moved up in performance and want to buy
LS1 edit ,so I can play with my own "property"

I am very PISSED

I cannot play with my own property now
because somebody has MONOPOLIZED my PROPERTY

Monopolizing is ILLEGAL in the USA

I have been in contact with a Lawyer
and he is VERY interested .

We are discussing a class action lawsuit
to fix this probelm ,and the people who are doing it.

If you paid for a service that's what you are supposed to get , if you want to go somewhere else after ,then that is your FREEDOM that somebody has locked you out of.

Lets see if this PROBLEM will get fixed
NOW

This is not directed to just one person
it is directed to ANYBODY that is locking people out of there OWN PROPERTY .

hint... next time I call to have my PCM unlocked
I will not be told how much to do it , right???

Black LS1 T/A

Are you saying you were locked without being informed?

If so, I think that is wrong, and they should remove it or offer your money back, along with your stock tune.

HOWEVER, if you KNEW the lock was part of the deal, you should pay to have it changed because you accepted the terms of the service.

Were you told it would be locked?

Camaroholic

iTrader: (1)

Sorry, I don't agree with you.

Take it to a dealership and have your PCM reflashed. Then you'll have access to your 'property' again.

Then you can do all the tuning you want.

-Andrew

Reboot

iTrader: (5)

This is crazy, not long ago those few that could access our pcm's were life savers to many of us. They put alot of work into the reseach into the timing and fuel maps they use for specific applications and should be able to protect their code from other competitors and Ls1-Edit users.

[ March 03, 2002: Message edited by: Reboot ]</p>

RJS

These are ALL very good points to a subject that
has been debated for years in the embedded controls systems arena.

I'll through in one more question which BTW I have ask LS1edit and am awaiting a response.

"Is LS1edit or any other tuner for that matter that essientially reverse engineers the operating systems software in any violations, e.,g., copyright/patent etc?
Obviously its been done since the 1st EPROMS were reverse assembled (what a tedious that use to be). But still are we not talking about some sort of potiential legalese?

Hey, Im not complaining, and have purchased and used one of the existing tools (HyppIII) myself and may go for LS1edit also.

One other thing, regarding the comment about having the dealer restore the code to original. I ask my dealer about doing one thing to the PCM, upping the idle rpm, said I would pay for it. Dealer came back (actually a service rep that I have known/delt with for two years) and said the shop does not perform any custom PCM tuning.

Later
Rick
99 C5 FRC w/bunch of mods

RJS

These are ALL very good points to a subject that
has been debated for years in the embedded controls systems arena.

I'll through in one more question which BTW I have ask LS1edit and am awaiting a response.

"Is LS1edit or any other tuner for that matter that essientially reverse engineers the operating systems software in any violations, e.,g., copyright/patent etc?
Obviously its been done since the 1st EPROMS were reverse assembled (what a tedious that use to be). But still are we not talking about some sort of potiential legalese?

Hey, Im not complaining, and have purchased and used one of the existing tools (HyppIII) myself and may go for LS1edit also.

One other thing, regarding the comment about having the dealer restore the code to original. I ask my dealer about doing one thing to the PCM, upping the idle rpm, said I would pay for it. Dealer came back (actually a service rep that I have known/delt with for two years) and said the shop does not perform any custom PCM tuning.

Later
Rick
99 C5 FRC w/bunch of mods

LPEZR1

A class action suit is perfect. The lawyer would get a pile of dough and all the the rest could buy lunch with the check they get.

ToplessTexan

[quote]Originally posted by RJS:
<strong>One other thing, regarding the comment about having the dealer restore the code to original. I ask my dealer about doing one thing to the PCM, upping the idle rpm, said I would pay for it. Dealer came back (actually a service rep that I have known/delt with for two years) and said the shop does not perform any custom PCM tuning.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But this is different in that it's not custom tuning. All you really want is for them to flash your PCM with a current stock flash as if you were installing a new PCM. The going rate seems to be around $65 or so. A helpful shop should be willing to do this since you're not asking them to flirt with emission issues.

DBerry

OK, let me get this straight. If you've got custom programming that has you "locked out" going to the dealer and having the pcm reflashed with stock programming will remove this problem?

ToplessTexan

[quote]Originally posted by Team ZR-1:
<strong>As for just going to the dealer and getting re-flashed, is seems people are forgetting that means to remove the lock, you also just wiped out the $500 plus for the tuner flash. You eat it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think people are forgetting it. I think it's part of why people are hot about this.

There's a part of me that doesn't have much sympathy for the situation though. There are few programming options that have offered the ability to return to your previous programming. Even knowing this, folks have opted for blind custom tuning. That's a decision that folks have freely made. I'm among those who have waited for something like LS1-Edit in part because trusting blind tuning w/ no recovery did not look like a good plan to me.

I do agree that appropriating access to the PCM is not a good thing for anyone. Question for those who have purchased pro tuning... Were you required to sign an EULA that prohibited redistribution and/or further modification?

ChrisB

[quote]As to the tuners spending blood, sweat, tears and a ton of knowledge, how come in the 1st day of getting LS1-Edit I was able to learn how to use it, make the calibration changes, flash PCM and gained 35 HP over the powerloader that was in the PCM, hmm, well they are not really that smart are they ?<hr></blockquote>

A couple of points

1) They also had the overhead of finding the methodology of reprogramming the pcm - both the technique as well as the locations of the tables, etc. Most of them (reputable anyway) have shop's, dyno's, etc. - so there is other overhead there for whatever reason.

2) Mail order tuning - I would never recommend it in any instance. I think it's inherently a gamble, no matter how good you are. Tuning the car in person should *always* yield better results (as again, I think mailorder is worthless, unless it's for hard number changes (rev limiter, etc.).

3) Knowledge - you obviously have an excellent understanding of how everything works, etc. Many of the people here can probably achieve a level/understanding great enough to be succesfull with LS1 Edit also - but still, your understanding is going to be a big factor in how well things work for you. I would submit that there are people here for whom LS1 Edit would not be appropriate - for whatever reason (lack of time invested, etc.) No buying a locked program is a different matter than getting someone else to tune, but I just don't think self ls1-editing is a viable option for *Every* single person.


Chris

LS1dude

When you pay for a service you have the right
to go elsewhere at a later time .

By locking a PCM you are now obligated to go back to the original programmer .What if I choose to
work on my own car now , I cant ??? I will have to pay this person to unlock my vehicle and loose
the information I paid $500 for? Not even Microsoft can get away with this .

This is against EPA laws ,the whole reason behind
OBD2 is to prevent the manufactures from monopolizing vehicle service from the little guys

In my opinion locking the PCM is in
violation of this law .

I am sure these people will here about this,
I am going to wait a few weeks and see if they
step up and offer to correct this violation.
If not I will pursue the actions needed.

I dont think they want the EPA involved ,or GM
I am also very good freinds with a GM rep that can put this on the right persons desk .

Team ZR-1

I would doubt a tuner selling a paying customer a copy of G.M's property would want anything written or signed on paper that would prove in a courtroom they were violating the law.

As for the hard, work, again, there are tools that are used by G.M to upgrade or reflash the PCM, a tuner just buys the tool.

All that takes in time is buying the flash re-programner and getting your hands on a SPS C/D.
In one case I know of the guy has a friend who works at a dealer and each time a new SPS C/D comes out the guy hands over the last C/D to that tuner, thus the tuner did zip but take something that was not to be given out.

So overhead was zip and as far as the hard work, all they had to do was have someone within G.M to either give them the source code to find out where tables reside, tell them memory addresses functions reside or maybe had worked with people who did PCM based LT1-edit and rip off the work they had done.

Black LS1 T/A

[quote]Originally posted by Team ZR-1:
<strong>
As to the tuners spending blood, sweat, tears and a ton of knowledge, how come in the 1st day of getting LS1-Edit I was able to learn how to use it, make the calibration changes, flash PCM and gained 35 HP over the powerloader that was in the PCM</strong><hr></blockquote>

As I said, it's easy to say you improved on the powerloader when you can browse thru and peep the types of changes they made to get the result they were after.

I'm not saying most of us couldn't better what these guys are doing with our own car after learning a thing or two. What you seem to be ignoring is these guys must calibrate MANY different types of vehicles with umpteen different configurations, then drive them enough to feel confident they got it right.

It is not as simplistic as you make it out to be.

Don't get me wrong... I'm glad LS1 Edit is out.

But let's be real here...

The LS1-Edit guys are doing their thing to protect their investment. Look at the special circuits to license VINs and the protection scheme THEY use. No altruistic angels there, either. I also think the price-tag is too high, and the upgrade provisions is greedy; I told them so.

But, for now it is all I can get, and I paid for it. Just don't make LS1-Edit out to be LS1-Angels... they are in it for the profit, too. And they will try to mop up as fast as they can before the next 'mo better mousetrap comes along. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

Bugblndr

When you paid your $500, you paid for someone to "tune" your car. You didn't pay for the ability to see the code/tables/bits/bytes that the tuner changed to do this.

The people who are currently "locked" out, bought their tunes with the full knowledge that LS1-Edit was around the corner. Did they ask if they could use such a tool on their "tuned" PCM?

For a living I develop custom software. I don't give out my source code. If someone needs some changes later, they need to see me, or start from scratch. Same deal for the PCM tuners.

ChrisB

[quote]Originally posted by Team ZR-1:
<strong>I would doubt a tuner selling a paying customer a copy of G.M's property would want anything written or signed on paper that would prove in a courtroom they were violating the law.
<hr></blockquote></strong>

And they would argue they aren't selling the source code (since you provide that) - rather, they are selling their labor adn expertiese is making changes to property you already own.

Selling the source code would be closer to writing their own DFI setup and using LS1 code. They are simply modifying something you already own - the same as porting a set of heads - you don't own the right to the heads (casting design, etc.) - but you can sell your labor/knowledge in modifying them, etc.

I agree with you that I don't like the idea of locking, and doing it without the customers knowledge is wrong - but I don't think the above line of logic really holds water.


[quote]
As for the hard, work, again, there are tools that are used by G.M to upgrade or reflash the PCM, a tuner just buys the tool.
All that takes in time is buying the flash re-programner and getting your hands on a SPS C/D.

<hr></blockquote>

However they do it they have money and time invested in it, etc. What they have invested in it is really irrelevant to what they charge from a free market perspective. The price they charge is what the market deams reasonable, period. It is a free market and even if they have "0" investment they can charge whatever they want - if the price is to high then they will not get business - but claiming their prices are unfair, or something to that extent also doesn't work.

It's really irrelevant what their investment, overhead, etc. is. I would venture most of them have a good amount of time, etc. involved - but that doesn't matter.

Again, the issue is locking the pcm's - if they have the right to make *any* changed then I don't see how we can say they can't make the change to lock the pcm. Whether you think their work is worth locking is a different issue.

Now if they make changes that limit/kill expected functionality without making the customer aware that is a different matter, but again, I don't see how you can deny them the ability to sell the product in whatever configuration they want - as long as the customer knows what they are purchasing.


Chris

LS1dude

You said , its a free market and by locking down the PCM is taking the free market out of the picture .

Lets get real here , they are not locking down the PCM to protect there work they are locking down the PCM so you have to go back to them for the next modification .

If I chose not to go back to them now that there is another alternative they are taking that right away from me .

Maybe they are locking down the PCM so nobody can see that they are getting ripped off .

All its gonna take to fix this problem is make
the code public , which is in the works also .

Bugblndr

[quote]If I chose not to go back to them now that there is another alternative they are taking that right away from me .<hr></blockquote>
Go to dealer
Have dealer reflash PCM.
Program with LS1 Edit.

They have taken no rights away from you.

Team ZR-1

Sorry but I have to laugh <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

For the $500 in the powerloader there was a grand total of THREE changes.

1. idle speed raised due to cam
2. Rev limiter raised 200 RPM
3. Two values changed in one RPM for spark.

WOW big deal, none of that was for performance, and this was for a custom tune for a 372 6.1 liter 435 HP custom engine, so don't tell me I could peek at their hot performance changes and make use of it.

It was junk and in looking at the other tuner, their changes were not any better.

Seems people who think tuners who sell G.Ms flash with a few changes to a table are some type of programmers, that's a laugh too, so I make changes to the data I get from the PCM via a scanner in excel, does that make me a programmer,
not hardly.

It still ends up with people stealing G.M's software, selling it for big bucks and people then defending those actions as if the tuners wrote some program.

This is not about what their service is, its about using a security lock that was out in solely to get even for LS1-Edit and to prove that, the tuners did not put locks in for years, and only when it was known LS1-edit was coming out that the tuners had their meeting and locked the PCM. That's like saying billygates sells you a program for your P/C and then changes the password to your P/C so that maybe one out of 300 million people might steal a few values in a table.

You cannot take ownership of operating values in a table that the functions were already designed to operate within and you cannot lock out the hardware for they do not own that and that is what this is about, with the lock the PCM locked to all but the tuner and if they eant to protect their changes fine, but only those changes, the PCM and the software is not their product and have no legal right to lock those out from the car owner or G.M.

[quote]Originally posted by Black LS1 T/A:
<strong>

As I said, it's easy to say you improved on the powerloader when you can browse thru and peep the types of changes they made to get the result they were after. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Team ZR-1

Sure they did,

G.M could void your warranty for PCM being mucked with and locking them out of their own software.

EPA could fine you $2,500 for allowing it.

Smog station can reject the car and you cannot get plates for it.

You eat 500 plus dollars because you got nothing in writing telling you not only of the lock, but the costs to undo it before making your purchase decisions.

And lastly a dealer by G.M policy can refuse to reflash when its found that EPA was violated.

So the car owner can take it in the shorts just because a tuner wanted to prevent customers from switching to another vendor.

Let's all hope all those defending the vendor over the car owners go buy the locked version and then do not get wacked for it.

[quote]Originally posted by Bugblndr:
<strong>
Go to dealer
Have dealer reflash PCM.
Program with LS1 Edit.

They have taken no rights away from you.</strong><hr></blockquote>