Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan?
03-03-2002, 10:51 PM
#1
Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan?
In North Carolina, next year we start having OBD-II computer scans as part of (maybe in place of) our emission testing.
Will a "tuned" PCM still pass the emissions scan?
What are the things you can tune and still pass?
I would image stuff like turning the EGR off, elimating the rear cats would results in an automatic failure.
Does anyone know how the computer scan emissions testing will work?
Thanks
In North Carolina, next year we start having OBD-II computer scans as part of (maybe in place of) our emission testing.
Will a "tuned" PCM still pass the emissions scan?
What are the things you can tune and still pass?
I would image stuff like turning the EGR off, elimating the rear cats would results in an automatic failure.
Does anyone know how the computer scan emissions testing will work?
Thanks
03-04-2002, 02:38 AM
#2
Moderator
Re: Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? Read 'em and weep. <img src="graemlins/gr_guns.gif" border="0" alt="[guns]" />
"Performing Onboard
Diagnostic System
Checks as Part of a
Vehicle Inspection and
Maintenance Program"
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/im/obd/r01015.pdf
Some excerpts:
Elements of an OBD-I/M Check
An OBD-I/M check consists of two types of examination: A visual check of the
dashboard display function and status (also known as the MIL and/or bulb check) and an
electronic examination of the OBD computer itself. These two examinations, taken together,
comprise the seven step procedure outlined below.
1) Initiate an official test by scanning or manually inputting the required vehicle and
owner information into the reporting medium (i.e., PC-based electronic reporting
system or manual test report).
2) Visually examine the instrument panel to determine if the MIL illuminates briefly
when the ignition key is turned to the “key on, engine off” (KOEO) position. A
brief period of illumination of the MIL at start-up is normal and helps confirm the
bulb is in proper, operating condition. This portion of the test procedure is also
known as the “bulb check.” Enter the results of the bulb check into the reporting
medium.
3) Locate the vehicle’s data link connector (DLC) and plug a scan tool into the
connector. While it is recommended that this step be performed with the ignition
in the “off” position, this step can also be performed with the ignition running.
Given the variety of locations manufacturers have chosen in practice, locating the
DLC may well be the most time-consuming element of the inspection. We will
discuss the issue of atypical DLC location elsewhere in this guidance.
4) Start the vehicle’s engine so that the vehicle is in the “key on, engine running”
(KOER) condition5. The MIL may illuminate and then extinguish during this
phase. Continued illumination while the engine is running is cause for failure.
Also, if the MIL illuminates during this phase but was not observed in step 2, the
vehicle should not be failed for step 2.
5) With the scan tool in the “generic OBD” mode, follow the scan tool
manufacturer’s instructions6 to determine:
• Vehicle readiness status7
• MIL status (whether commanded on or off)8, and
• Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs) for those vehicles with MILs
commanded on9.
6) Record the results of the OBD inspection in the appropriate medium. Depending
upon the design and feature requirements of the program, this may be an
automated process.
7) Without clearing DTCs or readiness codes, turn off the vehicle ignition, and then
disconnect the scan tool10. Clearing codes – if such is necessary – should be
reserved for the repair portion of the program (even though in test-and-repair
programs, the same personnel may be engaged in both activities). These codes
(and the associated “freeze-frame” data) are important for the performance of
proper diagnostics prior to repair.
Basis for Failure or Rejection
Unless otherwise noted in this guidance, a vehicle should be failed for any of the
following five reasons, with the exception of the last (for which the appropriate action is
rejection):11
1) It is a 1996 or newer vehicle and the data link connector (DLC) is missing, has
been tampered12 with, or is otherwise inoperable. (Action: Failure)
2) The MIL does not illuminate at all when the ignition key is turned to the KOEO
position. The MIL should illuminate (on some vehicles, only for a brief period of
time) when the ignition key is turned to the KOEO position. (Action: Failure)
3) If the MIL illuminates continuously or flashes after the engine has been started,
even if no fault codes are present, since this could indicate a serial data link failure.13 (Action: Failure)
4) Any DTCs are present and the MIL status, as indicated by the scan tool, is
commanded on, regardless of whether or not the MIL is actually illuminated.
Do not fail the vehicle if DTCs are present and the MIL status, as indicated by
the scan tool, is off, because such non-MIL-triggering DTCs are considered
“pending” and frequently self clear without requiring repair of the vehicle. MIL
command status must be determined with the engine running. (Action: Failure)
5) The number of OBD system monitors showing a “not ready” status exceeds the
number allowed for the model year in question. (Action: Rejection)14
Table 1 below lists the possible test outcomes in tabular form. {Wouldn't work in this post}
Table 1 – Possible OBD-I/M Outcomes
Vehicle Passes If: * Bulb check OK and
* MIL not lit while engine running and
* MIL not commanded on for any DTCs and
* All required readiness codes are set
Vehicle Fails If: * Bulb check not OK and/or
* MIL lit while engine running and/or
* MIL commanded on for any DTC and/or
* DLC missing, tampered, or inoperable
Vehicle Rejected If: * More unset readiness codes found than allowed based on MY and/or
* DLC cannot be located or is inaccessible
Also, they discuss readiness cods not being set:
There are several reasons why a vehicle may arrive for testing without the required
readiness codes set. These reasons include the following:
1) Failure to operate the vehicle under the conditions necessary to evaluate the
monitor(s) in question;
2) A recent resetting of the OBD system due to battery disconnection or replacement,
or routine maintenance immediately prior to testing15;
3) A unique, vehicle-specific OBD system failure;
4) An as-of-yet undefined system design anomaly; or
5) A fraudulent attempt to avoid I/M program requirements by clearing OBD codes just
prior to OBD-I/M testing (by, for example, temporarily disconnecting the battery).
"Performing Onboard
Diagnostic System
Checks as Part of a
Vehicle Inspection and
Maintenance Program"
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/im/obd/r01015.pdf
Some excerpts:
Elements of an OBD-I/M Check
An OBD-I/M check consists of two types of examination: A visual check of the
dashboard display function and status (also known as the MIL and/or bulb check) and an
electronic examination of the OBD computer itself. These two examinations, taken together,
comprise the seven step procedure outlined below.
1) Initiate an official test by scanning or manually inputting the required vehicle and
owner information into the reporting medium (i.e., PC-based electronic reporting
system or manual test report).
2) Visually examine the instrument panel to determine if the MIL illuminates briefly
when the ignition key is turned to the “key on, engine off” (KOEO) position. A
brief period of illumination of the MIL at start-up is normal and helps confirm the
bulb is in proper, operating condition. This portion of the test procedure is also
known as the “bulb check.” Enter the results of the bulb check into the reporting
medium.
3) Locate the vehicle’s data link connector (DLC) and plug a scan tool into the
connector. While it is recommended that this step be performed with the ignition
in the “off” position, this step can also be performed with the ignition running.
Given the variety of locations manufacturers have chosen in practice, locating the
DLC may well be the most time-consuming element of the inspection. We will
discuss the issue of atypical DLC location elsewhere in this guidance.
4) Start the vehicle’s engine so that the vehicle is in the “key on, engine running”
(KOER) condition5. The MIL may illuminate and then extinguish during this
phase. Continued illumination while the engine is running is cause for failure.
Also, if the MIL illuminates during this phase but was not observed in step 2, the
vehicle should not be failed for step 2.
5) With the scan tool in the “generic OBD” mode, follow the scan tool
manufacturer’s instructions6 to determine:
• Vehicle readiness status7
• MIL status (whether commanded on or off)8, and
• Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs) for those vehicles with MILs
commanded on9.
6) Record the results of the OBD inspection in the appropriate medium. Depending
upon the design and feature requirements of the program, this may be an
automated process.
7) Without clearing DTCs or readiness codes, turn off the vehicle ignition, and then
disconnect the scan tool10. Clearing codes – if such is necessary – should be
reserved for the repair portion of the program (even though in test-and-repair
programs, the same personnel may be engaged in both activities). These codes
(and the associated “freeze-frame” data) are important for the performance of
proper diagnostics prior to repair.
Basis for Failure or Rejection
Unless otherwise noted in this guidance, a vehicle should be failed for any of the
following five reasons, with the exception of the last (for which the appropriate action is
rejection):11
1) It is a 1996 or newer vehicle and the data link connector (DLC) is missing, has
been tampered12 with, or is otherwise inoperable. (Action: Failure)
2) The MIL does not illuminate at all when the ignition key is turned to the KOEO
position. The MIL should illuminate (on some vehicles, only for a brief period of
time) when the ignition key is turned to the KOEO position. (Action: Failure)
3) If the MIL illuminates continuously or flashes after the engine has been started,
even if no fault codes are present, since this could indicate a serial data link failure.13 (Action: Failure)
4) Any DTCs are present and the MIL status, as indicated by the scan tool, is
commanded on, regardless of whether or not the MIL is actually illuminated.
Do not fail the vehicle if DTCs are present and the MIL status, as indicated by
the scan tool, is off, because such non-MIL-triggering DTCs are considered
“pending” and frequently self clear without requiring repair of the vehicle. MIL
command status must be determined with the engine running. (Action: Failure)
5) The number of OBD system monitors showing a “not ready” status exceeds the
number allowed for the model year in question. (Action: Rejection)14
Table 1 below lists the possible test outcomes in tabular form. {Wouldn't work in this post}
Table 1 – Possible OBD-I/M Outcomes
Vehicle Passes If: * Bulb check OK and
* MIL not lit while engine running and
* MIL not commanded on for any DTCs and
* All required readiness codes are set
Vehicle Fails If: * Bulb check not OK and/or
* MIL lit while engine running and/or
* MIL commanded on for any DTC and/or
* DLC missing, tampered, or inoperable
Vehicle Rejected If: * More unset readiness codes found than allowed based on MY and/or
* DLC cannot be located or is inaccessible
Also, they discuss readiness cods not being set:
There are several reasons why a vehicle may arrive for testing without the required
readiness codes set. These reasons include the following:
1) Failure to operate the vehicle under the conditions necessary to evaluate the
monitor(s) in question;
2) A recent resetting of the OBD system due to battery disconnection or replacement,
or routine maintenance immediately prior to testing15;
3) A unique, vehicle-specific OBD system failure;
4) An as-of-yet undefined system design anomaly; or
5) A fraudulent attempt to avoid I/M program requirements by clearing OBD codes just
prior to OBD-I/M testing (by, for example, temporarily disconnecting the battery).
03-04-2002, 10:40 PM
#4
Moderator
Re: Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? Q. How much time will I be allowed to get an emissions inspection before I am penalized?
A. You will only receive one (1) official warning letter through the mail within a four (4) month period before the Penalty & Registration Block is actually issued. However, if you are stopped by a law enforcement officer, you are subject to be cited with a traffic ticket any time you are driving the vehicle if the sticker has expired.
You will be liable for a $100.00 fee/penalty if you own a 1975-1980 vehicle and a $250.00 fee/penalty if your vehicle is a 1981 or newer model.
Q. What's all this talk I hear in the news about Registration-Denial and who will it affect?
A. Under General Statute 20-183.8A, if a vehicle-owner fails to pass a Safety & Emissions Inspection within four (4) months of the expiration of the existing inspection sticker, the vehicle owner will receive the civil penalty and be unable to renew the registration until the vehicles passes an emissions inspection.
A. You will only receive one (1) official warning letter through the mail within a four (4) month period before the Penalty & Registration Block is actually issued. However, if you are stopped by a law enforcement officer, you are subject to be cited with a traffic ticket any time you are driving the vehicle if the sticker has expired.
You will be liable for a $100.00 fee/penalty if you own a 1975-1980 vehicle and a $250.00 fee/penalty if your vehicle is a 1981 or newer model.
Q. What's all this talk I hear in the news about Registration-Denial and who will it affect?
A. Under General Statute 20-183.8A, if a vehicle-owner fails to pass a Safety & Emissions Inspection within four (4) months of the expiration of the existing inspection sticker, the vehicle owner will receive the civil penalty and be unable to renew the registration until the vehicles passes an emissions inspection.
03-04-2002, 10:43 PM
#5
Moderator
Re: Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? Waiver Questions:
Q. My car failed the emissions inspection, but the part needed to fix the problem is unavailable. What should I do?
A. In this case you may be able to obtain a waiver. This is documentation provided by DMV Enforcement stating that you have tried in good faith to replace a missing component or part on your vehicle. You must first obtain letters from a dealership, parts store and salvage yard stating the part is no longer manufactured or obtainable. If DMV Enforcement is also unable to locate the part, a waiver allowing your vehicle to pass the emissions test will be issued.
On the other hand, if DMV locates the part, the vehicle-owner must comply, and the parts waiver will be denied.
Q. I've purchased the necessary parts and made the recommended repairs, but my car still failed the emissions inspection. What now?
A. In this case, a waiver may also be issued. However, the owner/operator must spend the required waiver amount in parts and/or labor in order to bring the vehicle within compliance standards. If the owner/operator can provide appropriate documentation of expenditures, the vehicle may be issued a waiver. Waiver expenditure amounts will not apply to the reconnection of tampered or removed exhaust emission control devices.
Q. How much are the minimum waiver expenditures?
A. A minimum expenditure of $75.00 is required for 1976-1980 model year vehicles. Repairs may be performed by the owner/operator. If repairs are performed by the owner/operator, only the cost of parts may be counted toward waiver expenditure. Minimum year will drop each year through 2005.
A minimum expenditure of $200.00 is required for model years 1981 and newer vehicles. Repairs to 1981 and newer vehicles must be performed by a recognized repair technician. A recognized repair technician is considered to be someone who is professionally engaged in vehicle repairs or employed by a business whose purpose is vehicle repair or possessing nationally recognized certification for emission-related diagnostics and repair.
Q. OK. I think I'm going to need a waiver. But just to be sure, what criteria must be met in order to get one?
A. The vehicle must pass the safety inspection.
The vehicle must have all exhaust emissions components appropriate to the make, model, year, series, and engine size properly installed and visually operating.
The vehicle must fail the initial exhaust emissions tailpipe test although all the exhaust emissions components are installed.
The vehicle-owner must attempt to obtain repairs appropriate to correct the cause of failure and bring the vehicle within compliance standards.
All repair receipts must be kept to be used as a part of the vehicle-owner's waiver request. These receipts must be itemized, dated and include the name of each part or component.
The vehicle-owner must have the repairs performed after the vehicle fails the first emissions test and completed within forty-five (45) days of the initial inspection and prior to the final inspection.
The vehicle-owner is advised that only those repairs made to correct emissions problems will be counted for a waiver and must bring the vehicle to emission compliance standards.
The vehicle-owner must have the catalytic converter replaced if the unleaded fuel restrictor has been tampered or removed. The fuel restrictor must also be repaired or replaced.
The vehicle-owner is advised that the cost of tampered or removed emission control components or device, or their cost for reconnection, is not acceptable.
The vehicle-owner is advised that diagnostics is not acceptable.
The vehicle-owner is advised that a written Denial of Dealer Warranty Coverage is required from the manufacturer or authorized dealer if the vehicle is still within the statutory age and mileage requirements as set forth in Section 207(b) of the Federal Clean Air Act.
The vehicle must fail only the tailpipe portion of the re-inspection after repairs have been made.
A waiver will be issued if all of the above-listed requirements are met. The waiver will be issued between the hours of 8:00 AM and 10:00 AM on Monday through Friday, with the exception of State-observed holidays. You can make an appointment, if needed, by calling your local DMV Enforcement Office.
Q. What if I have an emissions component removed or replaced?
A. First, be advised that if you have an emissions component that is defective or in need of replacement or repair, we will count the replaced or repaired emissions control component and the labor or installation cost toward the waiver.
Second, be advised that the component repair cannot replace a removed, tampered or disconnected component.
Third, if the vehicle passes the initial inspection and the component replacement is done to get the vehicle to pass the exhaust emissions portion of the inspection, then the component cost is allowed.
Fourth, if the exhaust emissions component is removed, tampered or disconnected during the initial emissions test, then the component is not allowed.
NOTE: A waiver may be issued for a tampered or removed component if it can be verified that the part in question (or one similar to it) is no longer available for sale. In order to qualify, the owner must produce three (3) signed statements on company letterhead from a dealership, an automotive parts store and junkyard supporting the claim. One (1) of the statements must be from a dealership selling the same make of the vehicle as that of the vehicle-owner who is requesting the waiver.
Q. My car failed the emissions inspection, but the part needed to fix the problem is unavailable. What should I do?
A. In this case you may be able to obtain a waiver. This is documentation provided by DMV Enforcement stating that you have tried in good faith to replace a missing component or part on your vehicle. You must first obtain letters from a dealership, parts store and salvage yard stating the part is no longer manufactured or obtainable. If DMV Enforcement is also unable to locate the part, a waiver allowing your vehicle to pass the emissions test will be issued.
On the other hand, if DMV locates the part, the vehicle-owner must comply, and the parts waiver will be denied.
Q. I've purchased the necessary parts and made the recommended repairs, but my car still failed the emissions inspection. What now?
A. In this case, a waiver may also be issued. However, the owner/operator must spend the required waiver amount in parts and/or labor in order to bring the vehicle within compliance standards. If the owner/operator can provide appropriate documentation of expenditures, the vehicle may be issued a waiver. Waiver expenditure amounts will not apply to the reconnection of tampered or removed exhaust emission control devices.
Q. How much are the minimum waiver expenditures?
A. A minimum expenditure of $75.00 is required for 1976-1980 model year vehicles. Repairs may be performed by the owner/operator. If repairs are performed by the owner/operator, only the cost of parts may be counted toward waiver expenditure. Minimum year will drop each year through 2005.
A minimum expenditure of $200.00 is required for model years 1981 and newer vehicles. Repairs to 1981 and newer vehicles must be performed by a recognized repair technician. A recognized repair technician is considered to be someone who is professionally engaged in vehicle repairs or employed by a business whose purpose is vehicle repair or possessing nationally recognized certification for emission-related diagnostics and repair.
Q. OK. I think I'm going to need a waiver. But just to be sure, what criteria must be met in order to get one?
A. The vehicle must pass the safety inspection.
The vehicle must have all exhaust emissions components appropriate to the make, model, year, series, and engine size properly installed and visually operating.
The vehicle must fail the initial exhaust emissions tailpipe test although all the exhaust emissions components are installed.
The vehicle-owner must attempt to obtain repairs appropriate to correct the cause of failure and bring the vehicle within compliance standards.
All repair receipts must be kept to be used as a part of the vehicle-owner's waiver request. These receipts must be itemized, dated and include the name of each part or component.
The vehicle-owner must have the repairs performed after the vehicle fails the first emissions test and completed within forty-five (45) days of the initial inspection and prior to the final inspection.
The vehicle-owner is advised that only those repairs made to correct emissions problems will be counted for a waiver and must bring the vehicle to emission compliance standards.
The vehicle-owner must have the catalytic converter replaced if the unleaded fuel restrictor has been tampered or removed. The fuel restrictor must also be repaired or replaced.
The vehicle-owner is advised that the cost of tampered or removed emission control components or device, or their cost for reconnection, is not acceptable.
The vehicle-owner is advised that diagnostics is not acceptable.
The vehicle-owner is advised that a written Denial of Dealer Warranty Coverage is required from the manufacturer or authorized dealer if the vehicle is still within the statutory age and mileage requirements as set forth in Section 207(b) of the Federal Clean Air Act.
The vehicle must fail only the tailpipe portion of the re-inspection after repairs have been made.
A waiver will be issued if all of the above-listed requirements are met. The waiver will be issued between the hours of 8:00 AM and 10:00 AM on Monday through Friday, with the exception of State-observed holidays. You can make an appointment, if needed, by calling your local DMV Enforcement Office.
Q. What if I have an emissions component removed or replaced?
A. First, be advised that if you have an emissions component that is defective or in need of replacement or repair, we will count the replaced or repaired emissions control component and the labor or installation cost toward the waiver.
Second, be advised that the component repair cannot replace a removed, tampered or disconnected component.
Third, if the vehicle passes the initial inspection and the component replacement is done to get the vehicle to pass the exhaust emissions portion of the inspection, then the component cost is allowed.
Fourth, if the exhaust emissions component is removed, tampered or disconnected during the initial emissions test, then the component is not allowed.
NOTE: A waiver may be issued for a tampered or removed component if it can be verified that the part in question (or one similar to it) is no longer available for sale. In order to qualify, the owner must produce three (3) signed statements on company letterhead from a dealership, an automotive parts store and junkyard supporting the claim. One (1) of the statements must be from a dealership selling the same make of the vehicle as that of the vehicle-owner who is requesting the waiver.
03-05-2002, 09:13 AM
#6
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Re: Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? Read 'em and weep.
"Performing Onboard
Diagnostic System
Checks as Part of a
Vehicle Inspection and
Maintenance Program"
Just call me stupid because after reading the link to the EPA I failed to find an answer to the original question. Can someone be specific as to how a reprog PCM would fail the test if all is operating normally.
"Performing Onboard
Diagnostic System
Checks as Part of a
Vehicle Inspection and
Maintenance Program"
Just call me stupid because after reading the link to the EPA I failed to find an answer to the original question. Can someone be specific as to how a reprog PCM would fail the test if all is operating normally.
03-05-2002, 09:26 AM
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Re: Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? OK, here's my take.
The inspection station will have NO WAY OF KNOWING if your PCM has been reprogrammed or not. He cannot read your file. He cannot tell if bits have been flipped.
He is looking for a MIL light (first), and then he'll connect a scan tool (similar to AutoTap) to the diagnostic port to see if there are any trouble codes. If, for example, he finds an "EGR Circuit Failure" code, he'll know that the EGR valve circuitry has been disconnected. However, if that code has been disabled somehow, then he will not see that code.
So, if the PCM has been *properly* set up to match your vehicle, then no, they will not know that it's been programmed, and it will pass. Granted, it's not *legal* to disable the EGR circuitry on an on-road vehicle, but it can be done.
My suggestion is to connect with AutoTap (or similar) before the inspection, to view and clear out trouble codes. Take care of those, and just worry about the sniffer portion. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
-Andrew
The inspection station will have NO WAY OF KNOWING if your PCM has been reprogrammed or not. He cannot read your file. He cannot tell if bits have been flipped.
He is looking for a MIL light (first), and then he'll connect a scan tool (similar to AutoTap) to the diagnostic port to see if there are any trouble codes. If, for example, he finds an "EGR Circuit Failure" code, he'll know that the EGR valve circuitry has been disconnected. However, if that code has been disabled somehow, then he will not see that code.
So, if the PCM has been *properly* set up to match your vehicle, then no, they will not know that it's been programmed, and it will pass. Granted, it's not *legal* to disable the EGR circuitry on an on-road vehicle, but it can be done.
My suggestion is to connect with AutoTap (or similar) before the inspection, to view and clear out trouble codes. Take care of those, and just worry about the sniffer portion. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
-Andrew
Trending Topics
03-05-2002, 10:07 AM
#8
Moderator
Re: Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? Camaroholic, they will be able to see if you have a Diag Test toggled to OFF, and they will fail you and consider fraud.
They also imply there will be a way to determine if codes have been reset by disconnecting battery or other things. I've haven't read enough to specify how.
It is a long-winded and unfocused document.
<img src="graemlins/gr_guns.gif" border="0" alt="[guns]" /> Bureaucrats!
They also imply there will be a way to determine if codes have been reset by disconnecting battery or other things. I've haven't read enough to specify how.
It is a long-winded and unfocused document.
<img src="graemlins/gr_guns.gif" border="0" alt="[guns]" /> Bureaucrats!
03-05-2002, 10:09 AM
#9
Moderator
Re: Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? [quote]Originally posted by Steve02C5:
<strong>Read 'em and weep.
"Performing Onboard
Diagnostic System
Checks as Part of a
Vehicle Inspection and
Maintenance Program"
Just call me stupid because after reading the link to the EPA I failed to find an answer to the original question. Can someone be specific as to how a reprog PCM would fail the test if all is operating normally.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I've said before, as long as no diag tests fail and no tests are toggled to OFF, reprogramming the computer should not cause you to fail. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
That's MY take!
<strong>Read 'em and weep.
"Performing Onboard
Diagnostic System
Checks as Part of a
Vehicle Inspection and
Maintenance Program"
Just call me stupid because after reading the link to the EPA I failed to find an answer to the original question. Can someone be specific as to how a reprog PCM would fail the test if all is operating normally.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I've said before, as long as no diag tests fail and no tests are toggled to OFF, reprogramming the computer should not cause you to fail. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
That's MY take!
03-05-2002, 10:46 AM
#10
03-05-2002, 10:46 AM
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Re: Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? [quote]Originally posted by Black LS1 T/A:
<strong>Camaroholic, they will be able to see if you have a Diag Test toggled to OFF, and they will fail you and consider fraud.</strong><hr></blockquote>
(Johnny Carson voice)
I did not know that!
(/Johnny)
Huh. Interesting. Not that I'm worried about it <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> but it'd be interesting to play with one of those machines for a while to see what all of the capabilities are.
-Andrew
<strong>Camaroholic, they will be able to see if you have a Diag Test toggled to OFF, and they will fail you and consider fraud.</strong><hr></blockquote>
(Johnny Carson voice)
I did not know that!
(/Johnny)
Huh. Interesting. Not that I'm worried about it <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> but it'd be interesting to play with one of those machines for a while to see what all of the capabilities are.
-Andrew
03-05-2002, 11:01 AM
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Re: Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? John, supposedly as of March 1st in this area they have switched to the newer obd2 pass/fail test for 96 and up cars.
This is not the simple advisory code check along with the sniffer test like just recently.
You can not remove any onboard test's and all test's must be completed at time of testing.
So erasing codes the day of the test will result in a fail and also deleting any onboard test's will also result in failure.
Now this is how I have read it. I have yet to actually go in and take the test so I don't know for sure how tough this will be to pass.
Steve
This is not the simple advisory code check along with the sniffer test like just recently.
You can not remove any onboard test's and all test's must be completed at time of testing.
So erasing codes the day of the test will result in a fail and also deleting any onboard test's will also result in failure.
Now this is how I have read it. I have yet to actually go in and take the test so I don't know for sure how tough this will be to pass.
Steve
03-05-2002, 11:19 AM
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Re: Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? What do you guys mean by deleting tests? Why would you delete a test? Does deleting codes also delete tests? If my rear O2 codes and EGR code are deleted, are the “tests” also deleted? I don’t get that part...
03-05-2002, 01:15 PM
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Re: Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? So you take the test and you fail because you have DTCs turned off. So what’s the next step? I have many DTCs turned off. EGR, rear O2s, PO300, and maybe others?? MTI did my tuning (with LS1 edit) and I have no idea what else they did. Will I now have to go back to MTI or another LS1 edit tuner to get that crap turned back on to pass? That’s BS. There must be a way around that...
I won't know if I'm going to pass or not until July of '04. I guess I'll just have to go and if I fail worry about it then...
I won't know if I'm going to pass or not until July of '04. I guess I'll just have to go and if I fail worry about it then...
03-05-2002, 01:54 PM
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Re: Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? All of these new smog regs are a good argument for me to just get a 1st Gen F-body with a Big Block and not worry about it. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
03-05-2002, 02:02 PM
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Re: Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? [quote]Originally posted by highgear:
<strong>All of these new smog regs are a good argument for me to just get a 1st Gen F-body with a Big Block and not worry about it. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm just going to have to meet a new "friend" at my local test center... <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
<strong>All of these new smog regs are a good argument for me to just get a 1st Gen F-body with a Big Block and not worry about it. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm just going to have to meet a new "friend" at my local test center... <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
03-05-2002, 02:06 PM
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Re: Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? This is a good reason to use LS1-edit and have a flash version done that meets EPA I/M and only use it for that purpose but again do the flash a week or so before the smog test, use your scanner and assure I/M tests are in a completed state.
For 01 and newer, those models are only allowed 1 test to be in a non completed state, for olders to '96, those are allowed 2 non completed states cause they did not have the same amount of EPA I/M tests running in PCM.
These tests have been on the PCM for some years and they did not call them Inspection/Maintance (I/M) tests for nothing. It was in limbo until EPA finally passed the draft standard last June after 300,000 plus cars were tested with I/M 240 in 10 testing states.
Those not knowing what the tuner did could disconnect sensors like knock, EGR, O2s one at a time and then see if PCM trips an error or not to tell if the tuner either told the function to be ignored and/or not to flip a DTC error.
[quote]Originally posted by RPM WS6:
<strong>So you take the test and you fail because you have DTCs turned off. So what’s the next step? I have many DTCs turned off. EGR, rear O2s, PO300, and maybe others?? MTI did my tuning (with LS1 edit) and I have no idea what else they did. Will I now have to go back to MTI or another LS1 edit tuner to get that crap turned back on to pass? That’s BS. There must be a way around that...
I won't know if I'm going to pass or not until July of '04. I guess I'll just have to go and if I fail worry about it then...</strong><hr></blockquote>
For 01 and newer, those models are only allowed 1 test to be in a non completed state, for olders to '96, those are allowed 2 non completed states cause they did not have the same amount of EPA I/M tests running in PCM.
These tests have been on the PCM for some years and they did not call them Inspection/Maintance (I/M) tests for nothing. It was in limbo until EPA finally passed the draft standard last June after 300,000 plus cars were tested with I/M 240 in 10 testing states.
Those not knowing what the tuner did could disconnect sensors like knock, EGR, O2s one at a time and then see if PCM trips an error or not to tell if the tuner either told the function to be ignored and/or not to flip a DTC error.
[quote]Originally posted by RPM WS6:
<strong>So you take the test and you fail because you have DTCs turned off. So what’s the next step? I have many DTCs turned off. EGR, rear O2s, PO300, and maybe others?? MTI did my tuning (with LS1 edit) and I have no idea what else they did. Will I now have to go back to MTI or another LS1 edit tuner to get that crap turned back on to pass? That’s BS. There must be a way around that...
I won't know if I'm going to pass or not until July of '04. I guess I'll just have to go and if I fail worry about it then...</strong><hr></blockquote>
03-05-2002, 02:14 PM
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Re: Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? Will not be that easy ny more, new tests are tied directly right to the state and results are sent via modem to state as tests are being done and VIN number recorded by scanner will go with results and cross checked to state registration.
One of the biggest reasons EPA wanted I/M was all the corrupt smog stations or tests not done correctly and thus had the PCM do the tests and not some human.
I pity those in states or counties that EPA has labeled "Dirty" for you not only have to do sniffer, but I/M and tested on a threadmill ( chassie dyno) at non idle speeds.
[quote]Originally posted by RPM WS6:
<strong>
I'm just going to have to meet a new "friend" at my local test center... <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>
One of the biggest reasons EPA wanted I/M was all the corrupt smog stations or tests not done correctly and thus had the PCM do the tests and not some human.
I pity those in states or counties that EPA has labeled "Dirty" for you not only have to do sniffer, but I/M and tested on a threadmill ( chassie dyno) at non idle speeds.
[quote]Originally posted by RPM WS6:
<strong>
I'm just going to have to meet a new "friend" at my local test center... <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>
03-05-2002, 02:29 PM
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Re: Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? It used to be a tester could sniff someone else car with your on the 'puter.
If they tried to 'clean test' a 'dirty' car now, with the values the 'puter downloads, they can tell if a station is 'clean testing' dirty cars by matching the numbers with the general car type. <img src="graemlins/gr_cry.gif" border="0" alt="[whiner]" />
If they tried to 'clean test' a 'dirty' car now, with the values the 'puter downloads, they can tell if a station is 'clean testing' dirty cars by matching the numbers with the general car type. <img src="graemlins/gr_cry.gif" border="0" alt="[whiner]" />
03-06-2002, 12:04 AM
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Re: Will PCM's tuned with LS1 Edit still pass the OBD-II emissions scan? That is not correct, they do not have to read the file, there is several ways they know if the existing flash is virgin or not for that model year.
Each state will have additions to EPA guidelines, thus some states will go beyond the EPA I/M 240 test steps.
Bad idea telling people to clear codes the night or even a week before going in for smog testing.
In doing a Clear DTC command, EPA linked I/M 240 tests to that command, thus if you think you'll fool tests by clearing DTCs,
it also forces ALL I/M tests to a "Non Complete" (Rejected) state) ( also removing battery will reset I/M to non complete)
where some of those tests take up to 40 valid drive cycles to get back to a "completed" state.
Those using a cold ECT thermostat might then cause it to takes weeks before valid trips have been meet.
DTCs can be checked to see if they were turned off by a bi-directional scanner sending /forcing a certain DTC code and seeing it the PCM or MIL reacts correctly, thus if they suspect tampering they can determine if its been mucked with and they could simply do a clear DTCs to see if all the I/M tests revert to a non complete state to see if those tests were changed to always be in a complete state.
This is why doing your own PCM calibrations is the best path for you never know what some tuner might do that you are unaware of such as cranking the heck out of timing, forcing knock, but then they turned knock DTC error codes off.
You can safely calibrate the PCM and via scanner assure I/M test pass before going in for a smog test.
On the other hand you have zero idea if some tuner hacked something in code that is picked up by a sharp smog tester.
It will be interesting due to the complaints about tuners locking the PCM that new added I/M tests that send a command to PCM to change a state of a DTC or I/M function fail because the PCM and test tool fail security linking, then the Sh&t will really hit the fan for car owners failing just because PCM is locked out to the world.
Always make sure I/M tests that your M.Y supports are in a complete state before going to a smog station and there is no DTCs present or MIL light on.
[quote]Originally posted by Camaroholic:
<strong>OK, here's my take.
The inspection station will have NO WAY OF KNOWING if your PCM has been reprogrammed or not. He cannot read your file. He cannot tell if bits have been flipped.
He is looking for a MIL light (first), and then he'll connect a scan tool (similar to AutoTap) to the diagnostic port to see if there are any trouble codes. If, for example, he finds an "EGR Circuit Failure" code, he'll know that the EGR valve circuitry has been disconnected. However, if that code has been disabled somehow, then he will not see that code.
So, if the PCM has been *properly* set up to match your vehicle, then no, they will not know that it's been programmed, and it will pass. Granted, it's not *legal* to disable the EGR circuitry on an on-road vehicle, but it can be done.
My suggestion is to connect with AutoTap (or similar) before the inspection, to view and clear out trouble codes. Take care of those, and just worry about the sniffer portion. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
-Andrew</strong><hr></blockquote>
Each state will have additions to EPA guidelines, thus some states will go beyond the EPA I/M 240 test steps.
Bad idea telling people to clear codes the night or even a week before going in for smog testing.
In doing a Clear DTC command, EPA linked I/M 240 tests to that command, thus if you think you'll fool tests by clearing DTCs,
it also forces ALL I/M tests to a "Non Complete" (Rejected) state) ( also removing battery will reset I/M to non complete)
where some of those tests take up to 40 valid drive cycles to get back to a "completed" state.
Those using a cold ECT thermostat might then cause it to takes weeks before valid trips have been meet.
DTCs can be checked to see if they were turned off by a bi-directional scanner sending /forcing a certain DTC code and seeing it the PCM or MIL reacts correctly, thus if they suspect tampering they can determine if its been mucked with and they could simply do a clear DTCs to see if all the I/M tests revert to a non complete state to see if those tests were changed to always be in a complete state.
This is why doing your own PCM calibrations is the best path for you never know what some tuner might do that you are unaware of such as cranking the heck out of timing, forcing knock, but then they turned knock DTC error codes off.
You can safely calibrate the PCM and via scanner assure I/M test pass before going in for a smog test.
On the other hand you have zero idea if some tuner hacked something in code that is picked up by a sharp smog tester.
It will be interesting due to the complaints about tuners locking the PCM that new added I/M tests that send a command to PCM to change a state of a DTC or I/M function fail because the PCM and test tool fail security linking, then the Sh&t will really hit the fan for car owners failing just because PCM is locked out to the world.
Always make sure I/M tests that your M.Y supports are in a complete state before going to a smog station and there is no DTCs present or MIL light on.
[quote]Originally posted by Camaroholic:
<strong>OK, here's my take.
The inspection station will have NO WAY OF KNOWING if your PCM has been reprogrammed or not. He cannot read your file. He cannot tell if bits have been flipped.
He is looking for a MIL light (first), and then he'll connect a scan tool (similar to AutoTap) to the diagnostic port to see if there are any trouble codes. If, for example, he finds an "EGR Circuit Failure" code, he'll know that the EGR valve circuitry has been disconnected. However, if that code has been disabled somehow, then he will not see that code.
So, if the PCM has been *properly* set up to match your vehicle, then no, they will not know that it's been programmed, and it will pass. Granted, it's not *legal* to disable the EGR circuitry on an on-road vehicle, but it can be done.
My suggestion is to connect with AutoTap (or similar) before the inspection, to view and clear out trouble codes. Take care of those, and just worry about the sniffer portion. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
-Andrew</strong><hr></blockquote>