Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out....
09-26-2002, 08:07 PM
#1
TECH Veteran
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Posts: 4,117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... I got my brand new cluster with the Granatelli 200mph face plate.
I plugged it in after the PCM was without power for more than 30 minutes, connected power and the mileage on the new cluster showed up.
I then took my old cluster (different mileage) and with out disconnecting power (thinking maybe the PCM held the mileage) hooked it up and its own original mileage appeared.
I did this because allot of poeple thought that the PCM held the mileage even if the cluster was changed.
The PCM has NOTHING to do with mileage.
Also, those of you who said the car would run fine without the cluster, IT DOESN'T, it barely stays on at idle with the rpm needle jumping from 200 to 1200, I started to smell gas and then it stalled. Putting the cluster back in, runs prefect right off the bat. This is at least true for my 98' WS6 T/A A4.
Cheers
I plugged it in after the PCM was without power for more than 30 minutes, connected power and the mileage on the new cluster showed up.
I then took my old cluster (different mileage) and with out disconnecting power (thinking maybe the PCM held the mileage) hooked it up and its own original mileage appeared.
I did this because allot of poeple thought that the PCM held the mileage even if the cluster was changed.
The PCM has NOTHING to do with mileage.
Also, those of you who said the car would run fine without the cluster, IT DOESN'T, it barely stays on at idle with the rpm needle jumping from 200 to 1200, I started to smell gas and then it stalled. Putting the cluster back in, runs prefect right off the bat. This is at least true for my 98' WS6 T/A A4.
Cheers
09-26-2002, 09:40 PM
#2
wrencher
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 4,762
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... IPC instrument panel cluster have a eprom that keeps the milage. PCM & ipc communicate with each other on a data buss. IPC not present PCM may run in fail safe mode. The IPC informs PCM of miles passed for certain emission diagnotics programs that are constantly being run, but no specific milage is kept by PCM. The PCM does control most gauges though.
09-26-2002, 10:09 PM
#3
TECH Veteran
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Posts: 4,117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by wrencher:
<strong>IPC instrument panel cluster have a eprom that keeps the milage. PCM & ipc communicate with each other on a data buss. IPC not present PCM may run in fail safe mode. The IPC informs PCM of miles passed for certain emission diagnotics programs that are constantly being run, but no specific milage is kept by PCM. The PCM does control most gauges though.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can the dealer or any PCM guru get original mileage from a PCM? I think not.
<strong>IPC instrument panel cluster have a eprom that keeps the milage. PCM & ipc communicate with each other on a data buss. IPC not present PCM may run in fail safe mode. The IPC informs PCM of miles passed for certain emission diagnotics programs that are constantly being run, but no specific milage is kept by PCM. The PCM does control most gauges though.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can the dealer or any PCM guru get original mileage from a PCM? I think not.
09-26-2002, 10:22 PM
#5
TECH Veteran
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Posts: 4,117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Stu'sWS6:
<strong>from what I understand, the mileage is stored in the BCM, Body Control Module.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Where's that at?
You did read my original post right. The miles are stored in memory, with or without power, in the cluster.
<strong>from what I understand, the mileage is stored in the BCM, Body Control Module.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Where's that at?
You did read my original post right. The miles are stored in memory, with or without power, in the cluster.
09-27-2002, 01:48 AM
#6
TECH Enthusiast
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: CLARKSVILLE,TN
Posts: 585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... I did find a milage counter on my 00 camaro with atap the other day. Weird thing was it showed 800 more miles then the cluster and I haven't touched either one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
09-27-2002, 07:03 AM
#7
Teching In
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: 215 Winter Street
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... When upgrading to a 200mph speedo, I thought the original cluster was sent in for modification?
Trending Topics
09-27-2002, 08:31 AM
#8
Teching In
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... Really confused now. I know if you put in a new cluster the mileage starts from whatever mileage is on the cluster. If you want the mileage to appear the same as the old cluster you have the cluster re-programmed. Same idea when replacing an analog cluster.
So the real question is.......if you swap clusters does the vehicle still have a tele-tale way of knowing how many miles / hours are on the vehicle. If not, be very weary of mileage on your next used GM vehicle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
So the real question is.......if you swap clusters does the vehicle still have a tele-tale way of knowing how many miles / hours are on the vehicle. If not, be very weary of mileage on your next used GM vehicle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
09-27-2002, 11:43 AM
#9
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 6,449
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... Read wrencher's post. That's it.
Umm, mileage has ALWAYS been associated with the cluster. What's preventing me with my 94 Z28 from pulling my cluster out (at 59,xxx miles), sticking a cluster with 100,xxx miles in it, driving it around for 30k, and then sticking my 59k mile cluster back in?
NOTHING. Heck, I had a spare cluster for my 94, but sold it. Would have been plug and play. Oh, state inspections and whatnot, but those would be easy enough to get past with the cluster swap again.
Instead of a tickety-tock odometer, it's now digital,but it's still stored in the cluster - just in a nonvolatile EPROM.
-Andrew
Umm, mileage has ALWAYS been associated with the cluster. What's preventing me with my 94 Z28 from pulling my cluster out (at 59,xxx miles), sticking a cluster with 100,xxx miles in it, driving it around for 30k, and then sticking my 59k mile cluster back in?
NOTHING. Heck, I had a spare cluster for my 94, but sold it. Would have been plug and play. Oh, state inspections and whatnot, but those would be easy enough to get past with the cluster swap again.
Instead of a tickety-tock odometer, it's now digital,but it's still stored in the cluster - just in a nonvolatile EPROM.
-Andrew
09-27-2002, 06:49 PM
#10
TECH Veteran
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Posts: 4,117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JS-Z71:
So the real question is.......if you swap clusters does the vehicle still have a tele-tale way of knowing how many miles / hours are on the vehicle. If not, be very weary of mileage on your next used GM vehicle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" /> [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is not what this thread was started for.
BUT
Here's how simple it is:
If you wanted no more miles from this day forward, 2 things need to be done.
1) Go to any dealer and buy a new PCM. They will sell it with no questions asked. No mileage questions, nothing!
2) Then buy a new cluster from any dealer, they have to sell you one. They will burn the new miles in. Lets say 35K miles is burned in.
Now, take the new cluster and the new PCM and put it in the closet. 5 years from now, install both and you still have 35K. Simple.
I now have my original cluster, with my real mileage. If I wanted to in 3-4 years, I could go to a dealer, buy a new PCM and put in my original cluster and 3-4 years of mileage will be gone. No way in hell to get busted. There is no proof of anything.
There is no way on gods green earth that you can get introuble for it, unless the feds have been traking your every move for the past 5 years and they know that you never installed your new cluster and PCM 5 years ago.
I was just trying to let everyone know that the PCM has NO, ZERO, NADA influence on the mileage which is displayed on a cluster.
<small>[ September 27, 2002, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Quickin ]</small>
So the real question is.......if you swap clusters does the vehicle still have a tele-tale way of knowing how many miles / hours are on the vehicle. If not, be very weary of mileage on your next used GM vehicle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" /> [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is not what this thread was started for.
BUT
Here's how simple it is:
If you wanted no more miles from this day forward, 2 things need to be done.
1) Go to any dealer and buy a new PCM. They will sell it with no questions asked. No mileage questions, nothing!
2) Then buy a new cluster from any dealer, they have to sell you one. They will burn the new miles in. Lets say 35K miles is burned in.
Now, take the new cluster and the new PCM and put it in the closet. 5 years from now, install both and you still have 35K. Simple.
I now have my original cluster, with my real mileage. If I wanted to in 3-4 years, I could go to a dealer, buy a new PCM and put in my original cluster and 3-4 years of mileage will be gone. No way in hell to get busted. There is no proof of anything.
There is no way on gods green earth that you can get introuble for it, unless the feds have been traking your every move for the past 5 years and they know that you never installed your new cluster and PCM 5 years ago.
I was just trying to let everyone know that the PCM has NO, ZERO, NADA influence on the mileage which is displayed on a cluster.
<small>[ September 27, 2002, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Quickin ]</small>
09-27-2002, 06:53 PM
#11
TECH Veteran
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Posts: 4,117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by ace 58:
<strong>When upgrading to a 200mph speedo, I thought the original cluster was sent in for modification?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, they require your original cluster.
OR, what I did.
I bought a brand new cluster just so I can keep my old one as an original part. If I sell it some time in the future, whoever buys it will begin with MY original mileage showing in the display.
<strong>When upgrading to a 200mph speedo, I thought the original cluster was sent in for modification?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, they require your original cluster.
OR, what I did.
I bought a brand new cluster just so I can keep my old one as an original part. If I sell it some time in the future, whoever buys it will begin with MY original mileage showing in the display.
09-27-2002, 09:21 PM
#12
wrencher
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 4,762
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... Most states require that odometers are repaired by a "certified shop" . Otherwise on sale the milage will be unknown. This is all makes, most jap odometers come at 00,000m & you can't change them just put sticker in door jamb that says, odometer replaced at xx,xxx m. Odometer fraud is unfortunetly alive & well. Digital cluster is gm attempt to quench it.
09-27-2002, 11:01 PM
#13
TECH Veteran
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Posts: 4,117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by wrencher:
Odometer fraud is unfortunetly alive & well. Digital cluster is gm attempt to quench it.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">After learning a bit about them (our clusters) they're way behind the 8-ball. Its so easy to pull off.
Odometer fraud is unfortunetly alive & well. Digital cluster is gm attempt to quench it.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">After learning a bit about them (our clusters) they're way behind the 8-ball. Its so easy to pull off.
09-27-2002, 11:58 PM
#14
Launching!
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... If it's true that the milage is only stored in the cluster then why do you need to replace the PCM when you replace the cluster in 5 years? Talking about the hypothetical situation mentioned above...
09-27-2002, 11:58 PM
#15
TECH Senior Member
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... From what I've learned... GM is way behind the times....
My dad is a jaguar mechanic, and I've talked to him extensively about how the jaguar network works compared to the GM (specifically F-Body) network works.... and the Jaguar network seems pretty foolproof (everything is linked)... the F-Body network seems to be like an apple.... at first it looks good but when you look closer you realize it's crap....
My dad is a jaguar mechanic, and I've talked to him extensively about how the jaguar network works compared to the GM (specifically F-Body) network works.... and the Jaguar network seems pretty foolproof (everything is linked)... the F-Body network seems to be like an apple.... at first it looks good but when you look closer you realize it's crap....
09-28-2002, 12:02 AM
#16
TECH Senior Member
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 99WhiteSS:
<strong>If it's true that the milage is only stored in the cluster then why do you need to replace the PCM when you replace the cluster in 5 years? Talking about the hypothetical situation mentioned above...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">From my obervations and tests I have found no evidence of the PCM storing mileage. The algorithm used Oil change (which one would assume is mileage based) is based on engine operating temp, time of operation, RPMs... there is a failsafe that after a calculated 10,000 miles it will always turn on.... but it's a calculated mileage...
I haven't found any evidence of the PCM being linked with the gauge cluster in regards to mileage though....
<strong>If it's true that the milage is only stored in the cluster then why do you need to replace the PCM when you replace the cluster in 5 years? Talking about the hypothetical situation mentioned above...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">From my obervations and tests I have found no evidence of the PCM storing mileage. The algorithm used Oil change (which one would assume is mileage based) is based on engine operating temp, time of operation, RPMs... there is a failsafe that after a calculated 10,000 miles it will always turn on.... but it's a calculated mileage...
I haven't found any evidence of the PCM being linked with the gauge cluster in regards to mileage though....
09-28-2002, 02:01 AM
#17
On The Tree
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... A tech 2 will read mileage. but im not sure if it reads it for the cluster or the PCM. As you stated the PCM does control the gauges and there is a gauge test on the tech 2 and its in the same menu as the mileage read is.
09-28-2002, 04:36 AM
#18
TECH Veteran
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Posts: 4,117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 99WhiteSS:
<strong>If it's true that the milage is only stored in the cluster then why do you need to replace the PCM when you replace the cluster in 5 years? Talking about the hypothetical situation mentioned above...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nobody said you HAVE TO change the PCM in 5 years. I was just saying, if you put a cluster in the closet for 5 years that has 10,000 miles on it, then after that 5 years you take it out of the closet and install it, your car will read 10,000 miles on the cluster and you will start from there.
NOW
If the PCM in any way can hold the true mileage and the dealer or some computer wiz can get it out of the PCM and someone was worried about it. All they have to do is go to any dealer and buy a new PCM, then install both after the 5 years. Installing the PCM first of course with the high-mileage cluster removed before the new PCM is installed. 5 years of mileage has just been wiped away.
Its obviously illegal, but there is no way in carnation to ever get caught.
Unless a dealer has seviced your car or any other service shop and they have recorded your mileage on the paperwork after 10,000 miles. But if noone has worked on or touched your car, your in the clear.
<strong>If it's true that the milage is only stored in the cluster then why do you need to replace the PCM when you replace the cluster in 5 years? Talking about the hypothetical situation mentioned above...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nobody said you HAVE TO change the PCM in 5 years. I was just saying, if you put a cluster in the closet for 5 years that has 10,000 miles on it, then after that 5 years you take it out of the closet and install it, your car will read 10,000 miles on the cluster and you will start from there.
NOW
If the PCM in any way can hold the true mileage and the dealer or some computer wiz can get it out of the PCM and someone was worried about it. All they have to do is go to any dealer and buy a new PCM, then install both after the 5 years. Installing the PCM first of course with the high-mileage cluster removed before the new PCM is installed. 5 years of mileage has just been wiped away.
Its obviously illegal, but there is no way in carnation to ever get caught.
Unless a dealer has seviced your car or any other service shop and they have recorded your mileage on the paperwork after 10,000 miles. But if noone has worked on or touched your car, your in the clear.
09-28-2002, 07:27 AM
#19
Teching In
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... So where else could the mileage be stored? The BCM, what does it hold?
I remember someone posting about a guy pulling the fuse, driving around then going to to the dealer for something and even though the mileage showed 35K they hooked up and found out it was 40K more. This was on a 2002 truck FWIW. They also have hour meters.
I know that you can not swap out the PCM directly because the security will be all messed up. The vehicle will not start unless all devices are setup / synced again by dealer.
I remember someone posting about a guy pulling the fuse, driving around then going to to the dealer for something and even though the mileage showed 35K they hooked up and found out it was 40K more. This was on a 2002 truck FWIW. They also have hour meters.
I know that you can not swap out the PCM directly because the security will be all messed up. The vehicle will not start unless all devices are setup / synced again by dealer.
09-28-2002, 09:16 AM
#20
Re: Its final, mileage is stored in the cluster only, I checked it out.... hehe.. well just to muddy the waters a little more. I was told by a respectible source that the mileage is stored in the ?powertrain module? BTW: I'm not sure where or what it is..