WannaZ28

trying to get a 79-81 TA. thinking of these motors to drop in:

454 BB chevy
403 pontiac
455 SD pontiac

any suggestions? i know the potential of the 455, but unsure of its block reliability, and am not sure if it can fit in (since those years no 455 was made). lookin to acheive 1.2 hp/cub

Nate Dog 11

403 is an Oldsmobubble engine. Slap in an Ellis Juan w/T56. IT'll weigh less (which those cars need) and give you all the streetable power you want. AS far as teh 455 fitment question, it is physically smaller than a 454. Closest engine size, other than a 350~455 Poncho, is to take a look at a 351 Windsor. The 400 is just a bit bigger, and the 455 will be the same size.

455 ceased production in 76, and 400 blocks are more plentiful. There are many an aftermarket sight that sell rotating assemblies to stroke that 400 block up to ....(checks a source)....467ci.

Here ya go: http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/...ssemblies.html there's also pontiac power.com /rock 'n roll engineering, indian adventures, kre (kaufman racing in ohio, )

some more for ya:

http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/...ssemblies.html

http://www.pontiacpower.com/catalog/cranks1.htm

http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID47169...ssemblies.aspx

y2k_ta

iTrader: (80)

If you go with the BB Chevy, be prepared for the ridicule you'll get from the die-hard Pontiac folks. They tend to freak out when someone does the Chevy swap. As far as space concerns, the BB Chevy would be your tightest fit.

F-Bobby

iTrader: (1)

i vote for the LS-1 its gonna be a lot of work, but the shock value alone will make it worth it lol

my1973form

A 326 to 455 Pontiac engine will bolt right in, forget the Olds 403 it's a dog, the 454 BB Chev you will have motor mount issues and as well as needing a Chev tranny if car has a BPO tranny; as far as the 455 SD (Supper Duty) good luck finding one of these engines very rare and were only avalible 1973-74 big $'s Good luck on your build-up...

30th droptop

iTrader: (-1)

I agree about the Super Duty being a poor choice. The heads are a GREAT design, but there are a lot of unique parts to the engine and original blocks and parts are hens teeth. A friend of mine just got the original Super Duty motor built in his original '73 455 SD T/A. He had it built by Ken from the old HO Racing (big-time Pontiac guys). It only dynoe'd about 400 hp at the crank, and that's with a bigger cam and other mods - his engine info is suppossed to be in some Pontiac mags soon.

I had a 1979 T/A Special Edition that I swapped a standard Pontiac 455 into (I kept the original engine in my shed for when I sold the car). With a standard 455, I made 465 horsepower with the SAME CAM as my buddy's SD engine (but I had my heads ported in a big way and was running 10:1 compression). If you go this route, you'll have an engine that will look totally stock to all by the most **** of Pontiac guys. So long as you don't spin it much over 5,000 rpm, you'll have all the power you'll ever want, for low bucks. But you'll need some big-*** drag radials to hook it up!

And Edelbrock makes a great set of aluminum heads for the Pontiac motor now.

nvrstsfd23

go with a 427 ls1 or something like that would be nuts in that car.

my1973form

Do you mean the 427 LS-7 500hp/475tq (new Vett Z06 motor) it's not avalible yet as a create motor but that would be nuts! Maybe you were not talking about a LS-1 bored/stroked to a 427 I guess. There is a carberated version avalible for the LS-1 thru Performance Chev. used a stand alone ignition system provided by MSD that motor if I remember produces like 430hp at the crank.

Nate Dog 11

I thought it ws the bored & stroked LS1 dubbed 421 SD?

30th droptop

iTrader: (-1)

If you're going with a Pontiac motor (which really makes the most sense), I would recommend you start with a 455 block. They are still plentiful and fairly cheap. They are the same dimensions and weigh the same as the 400's. The only significant difference between a 400 block and a 455 block is the size of the main-bearing journals (3.25-inch versus 3.00 inch for the 400). Externally, they are identical. The 455 block makes more financial sense than stroking a 400 - you can get 469 C.I. by simply giving a 455 block a standard 0.060 overbore. When I built my 455 (actually a 469) about 7 years ago, I think I spent about $3,500 total to build it, including the head porting! (of course, I did all the assembly myself).

Since I'm getting pretty far away from the LS1 focus of this board, you can PM me for more info on building these engines and putting them in 2nd-gen T/A's. These were the engines these cars were designed for - your life will be a lot easier if you stick with them, and you'll save money in the process.

nvrstsfd23

Yeah either a stroked ls1 to 427 or the z06 would be sweet.

30thanniv

iTrader: (2)

My 2nd gen ta has a garden variety 455 with 87 cc edelbrock heads that are massaged and a hydraulic roller cam. The car is severly traction limited and runs 12.0's at 113. With some traction and more tuning it should go 11.70-11.80's. I turn my engine to 5500-5600 rpm. With the mechanical advantage of the long stroke it isn't neccesary to spin these engines too high. They have tremendous amounts of torque. I dare say that my engine is pushing upward of 600 ft-lbs. You will have to give some attention to the main bearings oil feed. A good builder will know just how much to enlarge them.
The sd 455 is a good engine but don't fall for all the hype of it.
Just find a dependable builder. I would stay clear of Rock and Roll engineering as Bruce Fulper over there has a bad reputation as far as the traditional pontiac engine community is concerned.
Butler is the way to go.
I would buy a shortblock from Butler and bolt on some stock edelbrock heads and stick
a xr288HR comp cam in it. With an ati treemaster stalling at about 3000-3500 rpm and 3.42 gears your car will haul ***. The 455's are torque monsters, so putting the power to the ground is a very big problem.
BTW 400's can be stroked to 455 cid also, so don't discount a good 400 block.
To put things in perspective a 455 sd block alone will run you upwards of 5g's if you can find one. SD heads are also rare and expensive.
If you are that concerned about block reliablity the aftermarket has stepped up to the plate and you can buy a brand new IA2 block from www.allpontiac.com for about 3000 bucks. It is as solid as you will ever need with the improvements on the std 455 and can be stroked up to 600 cid.
That is my dream engine, a pump gas sucking 600 cube traditional pontiac engine in my 2nd gen. But like all things it isn't cheap. Good luck.
BTW anything faster then 12.0 will require a cage by NHRA, so be prepared to get kicked off the track. I believe IHRA tracks allow you to go 11.50's without a roll cage.
Another thing to remember is the whole package. The engine alone won't get you there. You will need to devote attention to traction and fuel supply as well.

kuhlryde

Hey kids.

I am new to this forum and wanted to continue this discussion with a new twist. I have a 79 T/A with the Pontiac 403 and 4 speed transmission. I am seriously doggin on the 12 mpg and want to install something with a better HP rating and MUCH better mpg. I would LOVE to put in a LS1 and T-56 6 speed, but the amount of custom fabrication necessary would make me

Any one know of a comparable combo that would deliver 20-25 mpg highway and still be able to burn a little rubber to the tune of 300+ HP?

Anyone ever done the LS1 conversion to a late 2nd gen car or know how much it would run for someone to do it for me?

Thanks!

30th droptop

iTrader: (-1)

You're going to spend a lot of money doing a swap, like to an LS1/LS6. Let's say you're out the door for about $6K (which is pretty conservative). How long would it take you to get that money back in fuel economy? With gas at $2.50/gal, and driving 15,000 miles per year, you'll be spending $3,125 on gas @ 12 mpg. If you were able to double the fuel economy (pretty ambitious), you'd be saving $1562.50. Based on this, it would take you almost four years and 60,000 miles to "pay back" the cost of the engine in fuel economy savings. If that makes sense, then great. But, if your main concern is highway fuel economy, you might want to look into a five-speed transmission. They can be swapped in easily and the overdrive gear can make a big difference in highway fuel economy, all without sacrificing performance.

Also, basic fuel/exhaust system and ignition tuning will probably help. I don't know what your rear axle ratio is, but when I had a 400 in my 1979 T/A with 3.23's, I used to be able to squeeze about 15 mpg out of it on the highway (no catalytic converter, though).

The Olds 403 gets a bad rap. It's not really a bad motor and can run pretty well when built right. The main problem is that the aftermarket does not support it very well. If I were to make a swap, I would probably be looking at putting a Pontiac 400 motor in, which can easily make over 300 horsepower and still look "right" for the car. BTW, that 4-speed is a swap, isn't it? By 1979, I'm pretty sure the four-speed came with the 400 engine, only.

30thanniv

iTrader: (2)

If I understand you correctly you want 300hp and cheap. I assume you mean 300hp at the crank and not at the rear wheels. There is an assumed 20 percent loss in the drivetrain, so to make 300 hp at the rear wheels you will need to make that much more at the flywheel.
The most economical way to accomplish what you are trying to do is to get your hands on a chevy crate 350 and bolt it up to a 700r4 overdrive transmission.
Another option is to buy an lt-1 out of a wrecked pre-98 f-body along with the transmission and have it rebuilt. You may get lucky and it may be a low mileage combo.
The 2nd gen ta is identical to the 2nd gen camaro, so you will need to procure camaro underhood items, such as engine mounts to begin with.
While not a direct bolt in, its not that hard.
I am curious how the heck did you end up with a 403 and a 4 speed transmission??
The 4 speed was only available with the 400 cube poncho mill.
The 403 olds was only available with the automatic.
Check the vin if you have a Z or a K in , I believe its the fifth position, to figure it out. A z=400 pontiac, k= 403 oldsmobile. The confusion arises because they are both 6.6 liter engines.
If you have a 79 ta with a "Z" in the vin, its not ultra collectable but of some worth to collectors.

kuhlryde

I am not too worried about it being cheap. My 2 main goals are power and decent gas milage. I thought about the LT1. I have heard they are easier to adapt to a 2nd gen than an LS1. Do you know of any informative sources that detail this conversion or any cars that I can look at online that have had it done?

You are right about that...brain fart. I DO have the 400 pontiac with the 4 speed...not a 403.

30thanniv

iTrader: (2)

I haven't done an internet search, but there has to be a site or someone that can help you with the conversion.
But if you have a true 400/4 speed 79 ta I wouldn't mess with it much, but thats my opinion.
Besides you can easily make 300 hp with the 400.
Check out this site for building up the poncho www.classicalpontiac.com

As far as the manual transmission conversion, there are some guys on that site that have converted to the 5 speed. I believe the popular swap is the tremec tko.
That site listed above is the place to ask, as I have not done said swap.

30th droptop

iTrader: (-1)

Yeah, an original 1979 400/4speed car is collectible (check that Z code, like 30th said). The 400 was actually discontinued in 1978 - they just held over about 7,500 400's from 1978 production for use in the 10th anniversary cars. The "left-overs" went into other T/A's. I had one in my Special ("Bandit") Edition car - it was one of 1,100. If I had held onto that car, it would be worth about 12K today.

And if it's the original four-speed, it's the aluminum-cased Warner Super T-10. It's a nice trans. and has some value in itself. If you swap in a 5-speed, keep the four-speed around so you can put the car back to original.

kuhlryde

I am not a very sentamental guy. Everything I am doing to this car is reversable. I am not going to be doing anything to it that will permanently damage the authenticity. They only made about 2500 of my model and I assume only a few hundred still, exist....but basically I am just using the body and frame for the car. Everything else is being 'upgraded'. Torq Thrust IIs, Baer brakes, 4th gen interior....but

I havent decided if I will keep the engine and tranny though. The engine is at least a year away...with all the body work I am doing, but figured I would get a head start now.

I can hear the Pontiac die-hards going balistic.

I am thinking I like the idea of an LT-1 in the car. The fuel injection and an overdrive trans will make the car very drivable and hopefully a nice candidate for the power tour.

Nate Dog 11

300hpout of the 400 is easy & inexpensive. The 200-R4 is a direct bolt up. HPP did a nice series on swapping this in & I cain provide copies of it if you need.

If you decide on an LS-1 swap, the weight of that engien is about 20~30lbs more than the 3800 I swapped in my Bird.