RedZoutlaw

Those two guys just have their own opinion...no use arguing with children who diss on the cousin of the firebird. They are both fbods and actually the same car...plus the Camaro came out first so technically pontiac did copy the camaro. Anyways to each their own.

Cephiros

well, technically, they came out at the same time
granted the camaro came out first, but they came out within a year of each other, close enough that 90% of the population woudl say they came out at the same time

and as stated, most of that is fact, i wont dis the camaro its a nice car but as stated pontiac *is* upscale of chevy, and all body styles that have a car in both companies the pontiac is usually considered an upgrade

of you still wish to argue that, look at the price difference.

we may have our opinions, but *that* is fact

RedZoutlaw

Yes you are right about the price difference and the fact the pontiac is considered more "luxury" than chevy. Its all how we learned to percieve the GM divisions.

Cephiros

im not trying to be fat headed which it may come off as i have all the resepct for camaro's, but, essentually it boils down to a trans am was designed to be superior looking inside and out to a camaro

since there is obviously not performance upgrade, your paying 12 grand more for *something*

and the turning heads? whoever gets the louder car tends to turn more heads, irreguardless of body, but if there equil, more often than not a t/a *batmobile* will generally get a few more complements because its 1) not so common as a camao, and 2) batmobile.....just, batmobile

but chances are, if the firebird was cheaper and the camaro was more expensive, that car would probably turn more heads, due tot he rarity thing, again.

HPP

It's not "considered", it's GM corporate heirarchy. Fact, not perception. chevy -> Pontiac -> Oldsmobile -> Buick -> Cadillac. The goal was to have people buy their first car from chevy (cheap, "everyman" generic car), then as they get older and get more money, keep trading up, eventually "arriving" in a Caddy. Furthermore, since the 60's, when performance started to matter, THE performance division has been, and is, Pontiac.

And again I must say, I am really disappointed in so-called Firebird and T/A fans. I think that the camaro guys truly do love their car more. They want it back, come hell or high water. Nothing else is acceptable. THAT is a true fan. None of this "don't bring it back because it'll be ruined" crap that just hurts the chances of the great Phoenix rising from it's ashes.

And as for it looking like it's based off a camaro concept..... it IS. Was from the start. So that would hardly be out of line. Nor would it hurt the looks to do so.

Oh, and to the comment of Pontiac copying chevy, look into your history. John Delorean wanted a 2 seat sports car (the Banshee), and GM corproate management turned him down because they feared it would compete with the Corvette. This proposal was shot down around 66 or early 67. Delorean was told if he wanted a sports car, he could build something on the new F-Body platform chevy was making for their new camaro. However, even though that killed a great concept, it played in our favor because he turned around and basically *told* them he was going to break corporate "law" and drop a 400 in it. He got away with it by just making it an option. And his design team then took the chassis and did ther *own* thing with it. The result was a higher end performance vehicle more suited for the true enthusaist than the more entry level camaro.

So no, Pontiac didn't copy chevy. They were all but forced into it and took the predesigned chassis and went their own way. And did it better. (of course)

And getting back to an earlier point, with the GTO, and Solstice, and hell, even the G6 coupe and hardtop 'vert, it's clear that they know how to design mean cars. Trust me. They WILL make a bitchin' lookin' beast off of anything chevy chooses to use. All that matters is that it's V8 RWD, and it will be. The rest is guaranteed to be awesome. (it was for 35 years, why would the next gen be *any* different. Think about it.)

FelixIlka

Anyone know what kinda rims are on that green car? I'd LOVE those

HPP

Yes, you're right, better looks, better looking interior (yes camaro fans, better looking vents, guages, lighting and nicer seats amount to a better interior), in the 4th Gen "A" (LT1) era, better aero. Not so sure about the LS1 era. But there IS a performance advantage. As mentioned, aero with the LT1, but both share a performance *potential* that is an advantage over the camaro - the wider fenders. Not only is this better looking (hourglass shape is always hotter than cyndrilical ), but it means that wider tires can more easily be mounted. And of course we all know that wider is better.

Cephiros

allright, i do like your rant, and i was all up for wanting a new fireburd, untill i saw the camaro concepts and they look like ****, like i said, i woudl rather have the car stay down, rather than see it reborn into a peice of crap, like the camaro conept, or what they did to the GTO. its not a matter of loving your car, its a matter of respect to one of the meanest looking machines out there.

if they came out with some good concepts for camaro?, then and only then ill start bitching about bringing back the birds, if they want to keep that concept they have now...that only kinda sorda resembles a very retro camaro, id rather not see it.

this statement is just offensive, im sorry:
And again I must say, I am really disappointed in so-called Firebird and T/A fans. I think that the camaro guys truly do love their car more. They want it back, come hell or high water. Nothing else is acceptable. THAT is a true fan. None of this "don't bring it back because it'll be ruined" crap that just hurts the chances of the great Phoenix rising from it's ashes.

honestly i think the people that would see it die, than come back a pos are the people interested in the car, and the ones that just want it back even if its a pos are the people interested only in a name.

HPP

Retro is good. Old cars look better. It's really as simple as that. lol Modern cars are bland, boring, and cookie cutter (with VERY few exceptions). There's only so many ways to attack an engineering problem and we are fast running out.

Chrysler is kicking *** with retro - the Prowler, which kinda started it, looks great (performance aside), and they've since had the very successful PT Cruiser, new 300M, and the pickup line has had a retro look for a long time now, with the new Dakota being very reminiscent of a Power Wagon retro concept from a few years back.

Meanwhile, over at Ford, the previous Mustang (from the late 90s, not sure of the year range) was chock full of retro cues and was intended to harken back to the classic Mustangs of the 60s. Why? If retro is so bad? Really, it's not. The 80s Mustang was a POS box that looked like an overgrown Escort with a V8 in it. There was nothing evolutionary that could be done to the car without looking back. Back to the old cars that defined the nameplate and that everyone liked better. It was so successful that they took that ball and ran all the way with it for the new one. And they did a fantastic job. Even though I have been a fairly dedicated Ford hater, I really like them and would not mind having one. This is the only Mustang I've felt that way about besides the classic GT 500s and BOSS Mustangs.

And look at the GTO, you don't like it. Many don't. Why? Because it looks nothing like the classic GTOs everyone knows and loves. There are no retro cues in it AT ALL. This is essentially proof positive that retro is the way to go. We've done it all, greatness is behind us now, so let's look in that direction a bit.

And no - a retro design does NOT mean having to go through every design all over again. I would think that would be obvious, but most opponents of retro don't seem to realize that. It's nothing more than a chance to make something awesome looking and re-start the evolution going in a different direction.

And about the GTO, I'm still at a loss as to how ANYONE can point to that as an example of how not to do a car. That car flat out rocks. Period. From build quality, to performance, it's a phenomenal car. And it makes a great modern take on the GTO. From the fact that it's a powerful RWD coupe with usable back seats and trunk, to the somewhat (admitedly) plain looks of the '04, it's actually MORE of a GTO than most want to accept. The '64s were nothing special and simply an option package. Over time they became more aggressive. And the new GTO is following that. About the only depature from the original is that this one can handle. But that's just using the modern definition of performance, so it fits.

Look - those concepts are artists conceptions and not linked to the company. Even though they look cool (as most any camaro guy will tell you), they are unlikely to be what will be seen. And talking about preferring to see the Firebird dead, for ANY reason, will be what is remembered. Not the context of "if it's based off those concepts that have nothing to do with GM". You're hurting the car. You're hurting the fan base. And it's selfish anyway. It's not like your car will be any less special. Hell, even IF it came out worse, like let's say.... the Mustang II or 80's Dodge Charger - did that hurt the originals? No. They became forgotten footnotes in history, and if anything, increased the desirability of the originals. It didn't even tarnish the name. If the Firebird comes back, it will be V8 RWD, and no matter what the camaro looks like, the Firebird will kick ***. EVERY Firebird generation has been awesome. There is no way that retro could possibly look poor or hurt the car.

And I'll tell ya what. I'd much rather suffer through a bit of "Mustang II" and "Fox body" if it would mean still having an absolutely *** kicking Trans Am still being made - like the Ford boys who still have their car thanks to enduring a bit of that trash. It clearly wasn't long term.

So no, it's hardly 'caring about the name and not the car', it's about true fandom and wanting the line to be continued. Nothing else is acceptable.

Sorry if you were offended, that wasn't the intent, but we need the kind of unity that the camaro guys have if we EVER want to see it come back again (and it must, you simply can not have one without the other).

Cephiros

man its too late for another rant, but if your right abotu the gto time will tell, currently its nothing special, and the 2 added hoodscoops i 05 dont change that at all

and retro si good in some things, it helped the stangs, it *would* help the gto, i dont think it would help the fbodies, but it *MIGHT* if its done right, but the concept drawings look horrable, way too round and tall looking, as for stangs, i have not seen one i liked before 05, since the mustang II era, you ahve your points its all a way of thinking death vs discrace or death vs waiting for some discraced models for a good one to make up for them.

and another thing is an fbody, without the fbody platform is *not* an fbody, weather its called camaro, or firebird, or not, that alone will probably seperate fbody peopel from the new camaro's eventually as well, i can already see *fbody is better becase* *no zeta(or wahtever it is now) is better because its newer*

HPP

Well, logically, newer is better when it comes to chassis design.

But I disagree with the idea that it's irrelevant if it's not the "F-Body". That's nothing more than a designation. People don't like "F-Bodies", they like Camaros, Firebirds and Trans Ams. And it's the Firebird, Trans Am, and Camaro that are all triplets, based on the same platform. Doesn't matter if it's Zeta, Kappa, or the "F" platform. The name of the chassis is irrelevant, it just happened to grow to prominence because it was the same for those nameplates for their entire lifespan as well as exclusive to them.

Give them another 30 years on a new platform and people will be using it's name interchangably as a way to be part of the "group" as well. And the distiction between platforms will be nothing more than the distiction between generations, or even generational revisions (such as LT1/LS1 for the 4th Gen).

Cephiros

time will tell, but an fbody has a very distnct flow tot he body, and the looks, what ive seen of the new platform looks nothing like an fbody, granted it has some characteristics of classic fbodies, but thats just looks, if you paint a pair of pants on a person, are they now wearing pants?, you might consider me single minded, and i may be just that but thats how i feel, and no matter what arguments you give your not going to change that
all fbodies accept the first 3 years, which kinda stood more with gto than the other 3 generatiosn fo fbodies
have always been low cut, sleek looking cars, the new design looks just the opposit., it looks like those "econo shitboxes" we all hate so much, accept slightly curvier, with an 05 mustange grille (remaniscant of old school camaro's) adn a paint scheme to match

im an avid fan of the fbody line(minus third gen camaro's) and they all ahd a specific look they may have change over the years but the overall styl is the same, if they chagne the platform, chances are the entire style will change as well, if thats the case, cool, but dotn call ti a camaro call it a*place new name here* and you may be right about the gto being basically what it was back then, but thats onyl because they started from scratch, if the gto line had continued, i gurantee you it would look a whole lot more mean looking than a grand am, in fact, chances are if it was still in production, never stopped?, it would probably look meaner than the ws6, if thats possable....thats irrelivent, just commenting on an earlier statement.

FelixIlka

I'd like to know as well, anyone know?

HPP

You know, I've seen a lot of pics of girls with painted on clothing that you can't tell isn't real. lol

I think the fact that the GTO/Chevelle/442 era Cutlass died is proof that the public wanted and liked the Firebird and Trans Am more than the GTO. So trying to foist the GTO off as a replacement for the Firebird and Trans Am today is just assinine. But then, so is much of what Lutz has done.

I don't think that calling the new GTO a Grand Am clone is fair. Have you been to the dealer to look at them in person? I have to admit that I hated it when it first came out. I always said "it's not a GTO, even if it's a good car, it's not worthy of the name". But over time, I've come to realize that expecting it to look like a '68 or s '69 Judge is off the wall, and that when you really look at the history, it is worthy of the name. (unlike the 2nd attempt to revive the Charger name) About the only thing I could complain about with the new GTO's is their size. They are too small. They are F-Body sized. The GTO was a midsize coupe and the Firebird was a small sports car. But the looks have truly grown on me.

Have you seen that Orange GTO Judge concept that I think is from Woodward or something? That shows what potential lies in that car. And I like the new hood too, as well as the large separated exhaust pipes. Everything else is just icing (and how sweet it is too).

As for the F-Body, the chassis never really changed that much, even from 1st to 2nd Gen. IMO, the 67 and 68s were flat out awesome. Hell, even the camaros were decent. lol They just seemed to cut the wheel openings larger to sit the car lower on the suspension and gave it the fast back and that really changed the apparent proportions (like wearing vertical stripes vs horizontal).

Again, this is all incidental. Slow evolution brought about by the success of the 2nd Gen, which was built with as little change as possible to lower cost. Once a formula is an obvious success, you don't mess with it much. (you know the ironic thing is that the 3rd Gen camaro looked like the late 2nd Gen T/A more than the 2nd Gen camaro lol)

I have a video file of a morph that someone did from the '69 T/A to the '02 WS6. Once you see it, you see how alike they really are. And after 35 years, it may well be about time for a fresh start. A better chassis from the ground up, with better balance and IRS, as well as better fit and finish. A new look to make the car successful while still showing heritage to the previous platform. And looking back to the 1st Gen is the logical thing to do in that case (especially with DRL laws being what they are, and are becoming).

What about the Y-Body? The Corvette has undergone severe changes from the C1 to the C6. Every gen has cues of the succeeding gen, but otherwise they really don't look anything alike (until the C5 when they started putting in retro styling cues, and then went too far and screwed up the C6). And the XLR looks nothing like a Corvette.

I just bring that up to show that a platform designation doesn't lock a car into any single look for all eternity. And as such, means that the platform designation itself is incidental.

chaman

iTrader: (5)

The wheels are ROH RT, greatly oversized of course.
http://www.groupawheels.com/images/RT-Silver.jpg

chaman

iTrader: (5)

Can you post that video?? Maybe PM me a link or just PM me so I can give you my e-mail. I would be interested in having the video. Thanks!

HPP

Unfortunately it's about 6.5MB and that's more than double what I can send in email, and I don't have a web host either.

I got it from this site I think, but I just tried a couple of searches and came up empty.

chaman

iTrader: (5)

Im willing to send to you a blank CD if it is possible. I could send you a money order if you like.

DGEN411

iTrader: (1)

I'm not trying to start anything but lets compare current models by the logic of power and cost = better

G6 $24610 240 hp > Colbalt SS $21990 205 hp
= Malibu SS $24375 240 hp

Grand Prix $29395 303 hp > Monte Carlo $27790 303 hp (id take the Monte)

The convertable sportster catagory may not be fair but thats all Pontiac has

Solstice $19995 177hp < SSR $43190 395 hp

and last but not least (Pontiac has no stats for 06)

05 GTO $32995 400 hp 0-60 4.8 < C6 $49395 400 hp 0-60 4.2
< Z06 $68700 505 hp

Looks pretty evenly matched for a preformence divison. As for rarity I see just as many if not more G6's Grand Prix's and GTO's as their counter parts. I love both brands Pontiacs look great but so do Chevys they are both just different. So the facts are gone now we just have opinions. Now lets get back to Mustang bashing.

P.S. I dont care who was better back in the day it's the 2006 model year.

Cephiros

i hate to say it but your comparing apples or oranges not apples to apples
camaro and firebird can be compared they are the same frame

*none* of those are comparing 2 cars on the same frame from 2 different companies...well maybe g6 and colbalt..i know nothing about those cars