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I was looking at doing a cam and even started a thread "Considering a cam" several weeks ago. I learned a lot from that thread and now I'm feeling that I really need to upgrade the heads to do a mid size cam. I even considered just doing a LS6 cam with the basics, but I don't feel like the gains will be worth the work involved.
Car: 3400lbs of 2000 Camaro SS with 194K, 20k on 4L60E, SFC's, LCA's w/ relos. I would like for the car to be able to be a daily driver.
My priorities: 1) reliability & drivability. 2) low 11 E/T's (currently 12.0 @112), 3) not put too much strain on my 194K bottom end. 4) cost
Car has been very well cared for and regular synthetic oil from day one. But I do have some concern about spinning the motor too high and would prefer a relatively flat torque curve. I have no interest in NOS or FI.
Heads/Cam options:
Option 1: TSP stg 1 treatment to my 799's, TSP dual valve springs, 228r is $1450+$350(cost of 799's)+$50 shipping = $1850 + supporting parts
Option 2: AI 226 treatment to my 799's, LG dual valve springs(upgrade cost involved), choice of cam is $1795 + $350(cost of 799's) + $50 shipping = ~$2250 + supporting parts. I've been Emailing with AI and Phil is suggesting either a 224/228-114 .610 or the 230/238-113 .605 and thier 226 treatment.
Also looked at TSP 2.5 vs 225 as cast which puts cost up around the AI package.
AI has been very helpful via Email. Seems that I can't really go wrong with TSP or AI but TSP will save me $300. Is the AI CNC work $300 better?
Supporting parts left to purchase:
ported LS6 oil pump from Tick
LS2 timing set
Straub trunion upgrade
Powerbond UDP
Already purchased:
GTP injectors (Ebay $110)
Morel 5315's ($180)
LS2 trays NIB (free in a trade)
Suggestions or guidance are welcome. This is my first go around with my first muscle car and I'm learning as I go.
Mods:
02 ws6 ls1 346ci stock bottom end
-Fast 92/92 intake ported by peak speed
-1 3/4 qtp headers hi flow catted y pipe to magnaflow cb muffler
- 85mm maf
-SLP Lid
-243 heads cnc pp 2.08 intake/1.57 exhaust milled .030 for 11.1 compression
-228R cam spec 228/228 .600/.600 lift
-Moser 12 bolt 8.8 Trutrac differential
w/3.42 gears
-25% Under drive pulley
Dynoed 428rwhp/396 rwtq SAE. I ll be heading back to the dyno and adding an electric cutout and pulling the maf screen. Hoping for 440rwhp. The torque curve on this setup is amazing and it pulls in almost 350rwtq at 3000rpms, just look at how flat the torque curve is its pretty much table top. Completely daily drivable and tons of usable power under the curve and up top.This wont break the bank either.
I think AI quality is hard to beat for the price.. you may get a few more HP from TEA but cost more.. not surr about TSP but im sure they are nice..
Detail in the AI 226cc heads..
Unfortunately i have no numbers yet, in the middle of my build but need to pull my motor because i dinged my cam bearing.. going to get it pulled and refreshed now.. probably a blessing in disguise considering i have 130k on it..with the mileage on yours you could do a blackstone oil sample and do a compression test.. should tell you enough for you to decide if its safe or not..
Your list looks good.. i went with all of the same parts.. only difference is i have an ss4000, y-pipe, and no SSRA.. i plan to pair my AI heads with a martin smallwood specced cam motion 230/236 .620/.603 112+2 and a fast 92/92.. cant wait to see what it puts down.. i am shooting for 450, and will be sad if its less than 430 lol jk.. as long as i hit 11.50s or less ill be happy..
As far as your cam, if you dont want to rev past 6500 you will want a 228 or less in my opinion unless you go bigger and set your limiter, but then you wont get the cams full potential
Personally, I would go with the AI226 and 224/228 cam package, no questions asked. You have a really good exhaust, which should allow you to get the most out of a smaller cam. And the smaller cam should drive better, requiring you to not rev as high. That package seems to meet the needs closest to what you described you were looking for.
I Agree with David, AI heads, 224/228 Cam, FAST92 when budget allows,
Great DD Cam, with power to 6500 RPM if you want to go that high.
Excellent response/drive ability 2500-5500 RPM.
Dynoed 428rwhp/396 rwtq SAE. I ll be heading back to the dyno and adding an electric cutout and pulling the maf screen. Hoping for 440rwhp. The torque curve on this setup is amazing and it pulls in almost 350rwtq at 3000rpms, just look at how flat the torque curve is its pretty much table top. Completely daily drivable and tons of usable power under the curve and up top.This wont break the bank either.
Thanks for sharing your set up man. Nice set up. That is certainly a very flat torque curve. I've heard such great things about the 228r. Who did those heads?
Originally Posted by RollinSScamaro
I think AI quality is hard to beat for the price.. you may get a few more HP from TEA but cost more.. not surr about TSP but im sure they are nice..
Unfortunately i have no numbers yet, in the middle of my build but need to pull my motor because i dinged my cam bearing.. going to get it pulled and refreshed now.. probably a blessing in disguise considering i have 130k on it..with the mileage on yours you could do a blackstone oil sample and do a compression test.. should tell you enough for you to decide if its safe or not..
Your list looks good.. i went with all of the same parts.. only difference is i have an ss4000, y-pipe, and no SSRA.. i plan to pair my AI heads with a martin smallwood specced cam motion 230/236 .620/.603 112+2 and a fast 92/92.. cant wait to see what it puts down.. i am shooting for 450, and will be sad if its less than 430 lol jk.. as long as i hit 11.50s or less ill be happy..
Nice setup you go there. You shouldn't have any problems hitting 11.50 with good tires. That's a good idea about Blackstone.
Originally Posted by DavidBoren
Personally, I would go with the AI226 and 224/228 cam package, no questions asked. You have a really good exhaust, which should allow you to get the most out of a smaller cam. And the smaller cam should drive better, requiring you to not rev as high. That package seems to meet the needs closest to what you described you were looking for.
Originally Posted by NAVYBLUE210
I Agree with David, AI heads, 224/228 Cam, FAST92 when budget allows,
Great DD Cam, with power to 6500 RPM if you want to go that high.
Excellent response/drive ability 2500-5500 RPM.
Thank you both. That sounds like what I'm looking for.
I'm still curious about the difference between AI and TSP CNC work.
Nothing against the TSP stg1/228r combination, I just prefer Phil's work and personally like the 224/228 cam Phil recommended more than the 228r.
I have found that single pattern cams do better with true dual exhaust with a scavenge pipe, which you already have, so the 228r cam will probably perform very well with your setup if you choose to go with the TSP stg1/228r.
I just personally think that the 224/228 cam will drive better all around. And I think the 224/228 cam would respond better later on if/when you upgrade your intake to something like a fast 92/92.
Thanks for sharing your set up man. Nice set up. That is certainly a very flat torque curve. I've heard such great things about the 228r. Who did those heads?Nice setup you go there. You shouldn't have any problems hitting 11.50 with good tires. That's a good idea about Blackstone.Thank you both. That sounds like what I'm looking for.
I'm still curious about the difference between AI and TSP CNC work.
The 243 heads were sent in to TSP for their cnc work. I bought them from another member and they flowed 318 @.600, and were milled .015 at the time. Since then i had a local shop mill them to .030 That member put down 435 rwhp with a smaller cam and similar combo. You cant go wrong performance/budget wise with stock casting 243s cnc by a reputable shop such as tsp or ai. Keep the cam in the mid to high 220s and you will have an explosive street combo.
I really appreciate your responses. I plan to talk to TSP before I make my decision. Phil has been very helpful (you guys have too).
I haven't ruled out a Fast 92 down the road, but the gains vs $ aren't very appealing to me.
Sounds like milling .030 off is a common thing to do to bump compression. Are there any drawbacks to doing this(assuming you have clearance)?
Wouldn't it be nearly a MUST to upgrade injectors when I do heads/cam? GTP and SVO injectors seem to be popular.
BTW, Racetronix and hotwire kit is installed.
1. The fast intake you ll notice when put in front of a head that flows good will give you more gains. Tony mamo (top AFR head porter) has alot of posts about this.
2. Compression is always your friend when it comes to making power. The draw back is ptv clearance when you want to run bigger cams, however if your end game is always streetability and power under the curve then you always want more compression. The only other drawback to compression is wanting to go the supercharger route for more than 7-8 psi. If your okay with 7-8 psi on 11.1 compression you can dial back the timing to 13-15 degrees at WOT and have a relatively safe but very responsive daily driver. For references look up slowhawk and frost (both reputable tuners/engine builders).
3. As for injectors, yes you need bigger injectors. I run the fast 36 lb which is the equivilant to 42 lb because of our fuel rail pressure @58 psi.
Dont forget you can always buy a used fast set up and subtract 350-400 for selling your ls6 and you can also sell your stock TB to help.
Instead of milling your heads you can run thinner cometic gaskets instead.. i think the more you mill the heads they dont flow as well.. read that in some old threads, not sure if thats true or if it always applies..
I think it would be smart to run the GTP injectors just to know they wont be maxxing your stockers out.. plus they are cheap assurance..
Head gaskets are not used to raise or lower compression, they are used to set your quench, static compression be damned. The correct way to change compression is by changing pistons. Decking heads changes flow characteristics and reduces material on the clamping surface of the head. If you want higher compression, Phil can also weld your chambers, which is better than shaving your heads. No matter what you choose, choose the head gasket thickness that gives you proper quench.
It would be a really good idea to pick up some bigger injectors to ensure you don't outrun the stock ones.
Good point about the Fast intake. Selling my LS6 would certainly recoup some of the $. But I have to stop somewhere on this "go-around". As you all know heads, cam and everything that goes along with it is already going to be a nice chunk of cash.
I found some reman/tested GTP's for $110 shipped. I guess its time to start buying some of this stuff up.... injectors, oil pump, lifters.
1. The fast intake you ll notice when put in front of a head that flows good will give you more gains. Tony mamo (top AFR head porter) has alot of posts about this.
2. Compression is always your friend when it comes to making power. The draw back is ptv clearance when you want to run bigger cams, however if your end game is always streetability and power under the curve then you always want more compression. The only other drawback to compression is wanting to go the supercharger route for more than 7-8 psi. If your okay with 7-8 psi on 11.1 compression you can dial back the timing to 13-15 degrees at WOT and have a relatively safe but very responsive daily driver. For references look up slowhawk and frost (both reputable tuners/engine builders).
3. As for injectors, yes you need bigger injectors. I run the fast 36 lb which is the equivilant to 42 lb because of our fuel rail pressure @58 psi.
low boost and high compression is a thing of the past since e85 came around. Guys running 12-14psi with 11.1 compression with corn.
Op, I already offered my 2 cents in your other thread. Whatever heads you get go with a light weight valve option...port 799's with turned down LS3's or just get the PRC225's. 224/228 cam will make plenty of power...Tony Mamo made 480whp with that cam running his AFR 205's and a Ported Fast. These engines do not need a ton of cam if you pay attention to the details and have a solid valve train with good flowing heads, intake, and exhaust.
I agree on the GTP injectors...I bought a flow matched set from injector rehab for 120.00. Easy to tune!!
Thanks a lot for all of the suggestions guys. I'd be wondering in the dark. Actually, I wouldn't even be taking this journey so my car would be mostly stock.... but my wallet would be fatter.
I would go with AI's 226cc heads and allow Phil to spec out the cam. If you tell him what your goals for the car are, he will get you a cam to meet your needs, plus he knows what kind of cam those heads like.
12-17-2016, 09:04 AM
Planning heads and cam 
