wake00

iTrader: (2)

Hello all,

I have a GMMG question, and I figured someone on here could answer. What is the difference between the Phase II and Phase IIX? Also, can you still get the Phase II package? I thought I read somewhere that you could not. If so, anyone know why they discounted the Phase II package?

Thanks in advance.

LateBrakeU2

iTrader: (3)

Phase II package was circa 2002,rated at 435 h.p.,no longer offered. It evolved into the "X" package in 03,then on to the "6" and eventually "R" rated between 475-550 h.p depending on cam profile heads etc.

wake00

iTrader: (2)

Ok, thanks. I didn't realize that. I didn't know if there was any specific reason the stop producing, but now I see why. Thanks

wake00

iTrader: (2)

I forgot to ask before, do you know the exact differences between the different Phase IIs?

02_Phase2_ZL1

Mark..............that isn't neccesarily correct. My ZL1 is a 2002 Phase II and is 475 h.p., not 435 h.p. I believe the 435 h.p. package was for the Berger, Tom Henry, Blackbird and Hot Rod Magazine cars prior to 2002 and up to 2002. Someone correct me if I am incorrect.

LateBrakeU2

iTrader: (3)

J.D., I think (maybe Matt,Ron,or Mike will chime in here)the 00-01BB,TH,HR,and Intimidator cars ordered with the first generation P2 upgrade were all rated at 435. By the time your car was built,they had already done the R&D for 475X version. I'm not sure but weren't the ZL1s built in late 02? Remember your car started with the 400 hp LS6,so that might account for the disparity in rating v the LS1 380(or 381 for the Intimidator)base cars. I'm not certain for sure but the PE Z4C P2 cars were also built later,and also came with the P2 rating at 475. The rated hp was pretty much dependent on when in the timeline of engine development the upgrade was performed. Hard to believe it's been eight years already since the first Berger cars- I know for the last couple years it's been the P2X6R incarnation which is well over 525.

Xsta Z 28

iTrader: (2)

The Phases get a bit confusing over the years and over the cars . . .

The information I write is about cars built at time of PURCHASE, not sent back for upgrades . . .

There are LS1 Block Phase II's they were introduced at the end of the 2001 Berger production on Matt Berger's Hugger Orange Berger SS #40.

The Phase II LS1's for the 2002 Berger SS, Tom Henry SS and the Hot Rod were all originally rated at 435 HP.

The Phase II LS6's originally and only offered in the ZL1 were rated at 475 as J.D. stated.

The "Other" Phases IIX, II6 and IIR (Which as far as I recall are related to the LS1 not the LS6) . . . for the most part came after regular car sales from the dealerships ended, and were upgrades . . .

The Phases for the Performace Edition get confusing . . .

The "X" netted you a different cam (IIRC)
The "6" netted you LS6 heads onto your LS1
The "R" netted some other "race" inspired upgrades . . .

As for "further" enhancements ont he LS6 Phases I can only assume they are there too . .

I have to admit I do not follow the "upgrade" Phases very well . . . .

02_Phase2_ZL1

So Mark, could the reason that my ZL1 is 475 h.p. (Phase II) vs. a 435 h.p. (Phase II) engine be the difference in the LS6 engine vs. the LS1 engine?

**** I have sent this thread to Matt asking him to either make a response in the thread itself or send his response back to me and that I would post it for him so hopefully we will have an answer to this yet. He did give me a partial answer which reads like this:

What is the difference between the Phase II and Phase IIX? The Phase 2 - 435hp package was the first name for our upgraded HP package, first done in 2000 on Matt Berger's 2000 Berger SS Camaro. It was basically new cam, headers, light machine work done to the LS1 heads with new springs and hardened push rods, red LS6 plug wires, computer/engine tuning, 4:10 rear end gears, etc. That package produced about 385hp to 390hp to the rear wheels. The Phase 2X replaced the Phase 2 package when we started using TEA to port our heads. We used the truck heads for the Phase 2X and with the major head work and much bigger and more aggressive Comp cam, we were now getting close to 425hp to 435hp to the rear wheels. At that point, I decided to change the name to 2X. Other than the new cylinder heads and cam and programming that went with that package, they were close to being the same. We also offer what we call a Phase 2X6 - 500hp package. That package uses the LS6 heads and an even more aggressive cam.

grb

Always a good idea to go to the source!

wake00

iTrader: (2)

Wow, thanks guys. I wasn't expecting to get all of my questions answered in less then a day. Thanks.

LateBrakeU2

iTrader: (3)

Lots of passionate GMMG owners on here!. Like previously stated there were SEVERAL incarnations of LSX upgrades over a long period of time. Of course Matt keeps meticulous records on every car and option,but if aliens abduct him this will be a great source for info on these special cars when they surface decades later. Any one who owns early GM muscle cars will tell you the critical importance of documentation- that's why Matt goes to great lengths to preserve data on his cars for future generations of enthusiasts.

Here is a good thread pertaining to this discussion, and a definitive breakdown from the person who built most if not all of them.


https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...se+gmmg&page=2


"Close guys but here is the break down. X stands for Xtreme. How do I know??? Well I made it up so I could tell the difference in the motors.

Phase 2 435HP rated (not built anymore)
Phase 2X 475HP rated Change Heads and Cam combo
Phase 2X6 500HP rated More TQ then P2X Bigger CAM LS6 Heads
Phase 2X6R 525HP rated 7000 RPMS ***** to the WALLS
Phase 3 600HP rated
Phase 3X 630HP rated I changed Heads/Cam/Intake Porter More RPM
Phase 4 700 PLUS HP 427 SR Experimental only 1 ever built ZL1-69
Phase 5 680-700 HP 454CI TONS OF TQ!!!
Phase ? ???-???? HP ???CI When you see you will KNOW!!!!"

Xsta Z 28

iTrader: (2)

The only caviat, is there were Phase II LS1's and Phase II LS6's with differnt HPs. . . .

And Phase III's were 427 LSX's . . .

But awesome info!

02_Phase2_ZL1

As you can tell..................Ray, Mark, Andy and I are certainly not "passionate" about the GMMG cars......................or about "our" GMMG cars and while none of us know everything about them, you put us all together................and we certainly know enough to be truly dangerous.

Xsta Z 28

iTrader: (2)

Ain't that the truth . . .

Sebring 00

Wonderful info on all the GMMG upgraded cars Gents.

Does this mean that the original Phase One cars are no longer desireable or worthy of consideration?

LateBrakeU2

iTrader: (3)

Craig,absolutley not! The P3 cars are certainly the most desireable and pulling big money even in this horrible market,but IMO all GMMG boats will rise with the tide in time. How many were built,500?.Of course the lowest mileage examples will always get top valuations ,but these cars aren't even ten years old,what was your 68 Z worth in 1976?. With such low production there will always be a market for them even if it's a narrow one. It's like the old Will Rodgers quote-buy land,they stopped making it

02_Phase2_ZL1

The only Will Rodgers quote I remember is:

"If ain't ain't correct, I notice alot of people that ain't using ain't ain't eating"

The Phase I or base cars are still desirable. I would love to have your DE car Craig.

02_Phase2_ZL1

Okay guys...................here is another response from Matt Murphy:

J. D.

Thanks again for your help. I had to run out of town and forgot to mention the LS6 ZL1 cars. And one other thing, January of 2004 is about when we started using the Phase 2X and 475hp setup. The ZL1 Phase 2 cars were very similar to the regular Phase 2 package in that the computer tuning wasn't very good at that time, and therefore the Phase 2 435hp LS1 cars and Phase 2 475hp ZL1's had light head work, and not very aggressive cams.

By late 2003 we were tuning our own stuff with LS1 edit and we finally had our own in-house dyno. With those two items, we were then able to jump the cams up and do some serious work on the heads by TEA. By mid 2004 we already had the P2X 475hp and P2X6 500hp package. The Dick Harrell Edition cars, like the ZL1 cars came with the LS6 motors in the base package and were rated 400hp, because Chevy asked me NOT to rate the ZL1's base package equal to or higher than their new Z06. I agreed to do that and we called the base cars 400hp. Now, because we were offering the P2X6 as an upgrade by 2004, there was never any thought to doing the Dick Harrell Edition cars with a 475hp Phase 2 package. It was going to be the Phase 2X6 package at 500hp.

We are now working on a new Phase 2 package and it will be a 525hp setup with the new Trick Flow heads and it is called a Phase 2XT. We still offer the Phase 2X6 500hp package, but have pretty much ended the Phase 2X 475hp package. I guess you can say, everything has a shelf life, and sooner or later things get better and replace the older setup.

Keep the questions coming . . . and I'll have to get a new password so I can reply as well on line.

Take care . . .


MATT

LateBrakeU2

iTrader: (3)

J.D.,thanks for the info. Here's my old Blackbird's engine stamp-probably one of if not the first P2X cars built, fall 03. Mike's initials upper left.

grb

I think I'll post a pic of one of my heads........tomorrow.