2 near stock '02 WS6's verse 2 '11 5.0 GT's.
07-30-2010, 05:29 PM
#1
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
2 near stock '02 WS6's verse 2 '11 5.0 GT's. Well, here is the culmination of 30+ pages of back n forth bickering and argueing. Manny and NiteriderWS6 versus two coworkers with 5.0 GT mustangs- and possibly a '11 SS (auto) and '11 R/T Challenger.
To keep my carpal tunnel from rearing up, I'll just cut n paste from the giant thread manny started. Feel free to speculate on the results of the races!
https://ls1tech.com/forums/street-ra...11-stangs.html
Sticks, the string pulling Puppet Master Extrordinaire' is gathering together quite the crowd for a saturday night stock car bash. Here is the potential list so far:
'11 SS auto
'11 GT 5.0 x 2 (identical rentals)
Manny's WS6 (K&N + lid only)
NiteriderWS6 (Lid w/paper filter, 3" cutout, catback)
The one 5.0 GT owner I was talking about who I knew could drive, let me drive his 5.0 GT. It actually is a rental! with 5k miles on it. Hard miles Im sure. Guy can drive, he's got a 12 second Nova, races on street mostly with some track, been around drag cars his whole life (his dad has some pro stock beast now).
He's also a diehard GM fan (his whole family is) who is currently rotating his way through the fleet of rental cars at a exotic car rental place: he already had a SS A6 Camaro rental (said it definitely felt slower than the 5.0). No holding back due to brand loyalty from this guy!
He's my ringer, the others are unknowns in the talent area. My hour test drive of the 5.0 was VERY instructive, and I'll let you guys know all about its weakness's and strengths in the next post!
EDIT: Here is the video of the runs. Ended up only being NiteriderWS6 (M6) verse one Mustang 5.0 automatic. Video was posted on page 5, I'm bringing it forward to the first post:
To keep my carpal tunnel from rearing up, I'll just cut n paste from the giant thread manny started. Feel free to speculate on the results of the races!
https://ls1tech.com/forums/street-ra...11-stangs.html
Sticks, the string pulling Puppet Master Extrordinaire' is gathering together quite the crowd for a saturday night stock car bash. Here is the potential list so far:
'11 SS auto
'11 GT 5.0 x 2 (identical rentals)
Manny's WS6 (K&N + lid only)
NiteriderWS6 (Lid w/paper filter, 3" cutout, catback)
The one 5.0 GT owner I was talking about who I knew could drive, let me drive his 5.0 GT. It actually is a rental! with 5k miles on it. Hard miles Im sure. Guy can drive, he's got a 12 second Nova, races on street mostly with some track, been around drag cars his whole life (his dad has some pro stock beast now).
He's also a diehard GM fan (his whole family is) who is currently rotating his way through the fleet of rental cars at a exotic car rental place: he already had a SS A6 Camaro rental (said it definitely felt slower than the 5.0). No holding back due to brand loyalty from this guy!
He's my ringer, the others are unknowns in the talent area. My hour test drive of the 5.0 was VERY instructive, and I'll let you guys know all about its weakness's and strengths in the next post!
EDIT: Here is the video of the runs. Ended up only being NiteriderWS6 (M6) verse one Mustang 5.0 automatic. Video was posted on page 5, I'm bringing it forward to the first post:
1st Race: Dig, 5.0 Jumps, and is out of site lol
2nd Race: Dig, Even start, 5.0 pulls 1.5-2 cars?
3rd Race: WS6 no passenger, roll, 10-120, WS6 by half a car?
4th Race: WS6 no passenger, roll, 15-120, WS6 by a car?
in the last two races we had already started before the video came on, I stopped every time at 120, he wanted to keep going around the turn but that turn was scary and I didnt want to push it for a few extra feet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odJQAq7l-hI
2nd Race: Dig, Even start, 5.0 pulls 1.5-2 cars?
3rd Race: WS6 no passenger, roll, 10-120, WS6 by half a car?
4th Race: WS6 no passenger, roll, 15-120, WS6 by a car?
in the last two races we had already started before the video came on, I stopped every time at 120, he wanted to keep going around the turn but that turn was scary and I didnt want to push it for a few extra feet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odJQAq7l-hI
Last edited by Sticks n Stones; 08-01-2010 at 10:25 AM.
07-30-2010, 05:31 PM
#2
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Might as well throw in my evaluation of the 5.0 that I was thrown the keys too:
Well, I drove (the **** out of) my first 5.0 GT Mustang today. VERY enlightening. Here is what I learned - tips that anybody running mid 12's on up better heed!
CLIFFS NOTES: race a auto 5.0 from a 25-30mph roll. Preferably 25mph incase he has the optional 3.73 gears. They have a nasty lag from WOT to pulling: 1 1/2 to 2 seconds from pedal slamming to shift nannies off and howling with full power. You want a legit race? make him manually shift it and hold the gear. If you dont pull him below 70mph, you WILL NOT walk it down. Period. BE WARNED: all kinds of computer nanny interference means a tuned (de-nannied), cai, catback auto is gonna be one helluva lot faster than a stock one.
Conditions: Victorville, California elevation 2900', temp 97 deg F.
I'm 6'5" and square: I had trouble fitting into it, even with seat all the way back my knees were only 2" from the dash. Head hit the roof until I lowered seat all the way down, and leaned it back a bit. << kinda normal for me in all cars, not really a hit on the GT. Easy to read gauges, even when spinning the tires sideways down the road, though the interior does feel kinda cheap compared to, well, anything in its price range. Engine sound? Everyone was surprised I didn't like it, but I didnt: just sounded off tone and wrong. Not what I expected from a Mustang. Catback time for sure if I bought one!
Laggy throttle. Just revving it in idle is a joke: my foot was on the floor with a audible "thump" before the rpms even changed. Stupid computer nannies were already starting to rear there heads I feared.
Driving initial impressions: surprisingly reminds me of the LS1 Fbodies in the stiffness of suspension and surprising amount of tire noise that makes it into the cab. I like that, but most dont. Fairly stiff body for a pony car, but could definitely be stiffer. Car feels very short from inside: Having sat in a SS, Challenger, and Charger I would say the GT feels like about 5 to 8' shorter. No ****.
Power: high revving powerband for sure. If you are a true veteran gearhead you can feel? sense? the VVT working. Still not near enough power below 4k though. Laggy throttle and slow downshifts are annoying to say the least- though expected in any modern car available to the ignorant, crappy driver mod public nowadays.
Transmission and gearing the 6 spd does a masterful job of hiding the deadspots. Seriously, I did launches from every 5mph incremental speed starting at zero and ending at 90mph. It acts like a virgin closing her legs to your advances at every possible location. Only one dead spot- and it's a doozy. 25-30mph. Not 20-30mph, not 25-31mph, but TWENTY FIVE TO THIRTY MPH. Massive dead spot that totally exposes the low torque engines bottom end lack of power.
This 5.0 is a rental, youu know it doesnt have the track pack 3.73 gears. drop 3-5mph for that probably. Any quick LSx 6spd or A4 will literally put 3-4 cars on a auto 5.0 mustang if you race him from that 25-30mph range.
Other than that? Well, there is one spot around 70mph where it drops down to "only" 4200rpms on the hit. Thats it. Legs crossed tight, you are gonna have to take that cherry with brute force if you missed your "sweet spot" low roll starting point!
Dig? Does it surprisingly well: I was able to brake stall the converter up to 2100rpms. No ****, they must have a 2600rpm stall convertor from the factory- or a high STR 2400stall maybe? Due to that high stall, they pull just as hard from a 5mph punch as they do from a dig. Same with 10mph.
And at 20mph? Well, good luck. Pulls like a raped ape on steroids from 20mph. It's almost as hard pulling at 60mph, too: those two speeds you DO NOT want to race a 5.0 GT from!!!!!!
Nannies and torque management: they are on this car like white on rice. VERY VERY restrictive on both not going WOT when you want, to 2 second gear changes, to nannies everywhere that you cannot turn off that are keeping the engine from making power. I can EASILY see this car picking up 5 tenths with a tune and maybe another 5 tenths with a CAI, catback, and maybe tires.
Traction: mine hooked great, but it's 97 deg F outside and they were warm and the engine was down on power. The DA at a dragstrip with those conditions would require an oxygen mask!!! Bringing stall up to just before spinning the tires then dumping the gas barely let out a chirp. Just not enough torque, even with the factory high stall. --- and the high DA. Always keep that inmind while reading this post.
Top speed: honestly, it pulls better past 90mph than my GTO does. Speedo just swept on by 80, 90, 100, 110, and to 120 where I let up like it was on a dyno instead of in the middle of a desert at high noon. Very impressive for a Mustang... or most any other car not sporting 400+ real crank hp. You LS1 guys better have some breathing mods on your cars or these 5.0 stangs will "Supra" you.
Handling? Put the same tires on a SS and 5.0 and watch the SS walk away on any but maybe a very very tight track. Maybe the Mustang just needs bigger tires, but I think it's a geometry issue: either way bone stock it only gives the impression of being a great handling car- not the reality.
^^And yes, I can make that distinction whereas most other car guys can't. Aint braggin, it's just the simple truth: I've spent alot of time on roadcoarses and in fast, modified cars. The 5.0 has the bones to be a great autocrosser, but not with that current suspension setup. And that damned yaw control nanny has to go! It kicks in at 90% of max lateral when it is just starting to get fun.
Conclusion: Do I think it's a stock 12 second car? Absolutely. Even with the annoying nannies, average drivers on average tracks should knock out 12.9-13.0 times with 2000' or lower DA. Tune, CAI, catback should be low to mid 12's.
Side note: I'm also pretty good at judging the airflow thru an engine. This 5.0 feels like it's fully capable of more power with just a cam change. Reminds me alot of how I felt the first time I drove a LS1 Camaro- I immediately felt it needed a cam! Same here: expect cams to become a gotta have for the track crowd. Expect unported heads to pick up 40-50rwhp IF - and thats a big IF- the longblock can handle another 600rpms. If it can, well, ..... GM and Dodge better buy stock in Jenny Craig. Fast.
CLIFFS NOTES: race a auto 5.0 from a 25-30mph roll. Preferably 25mph incase he has the optional 3.73 gears. They have a nasty lag from WOT to pulling: 1 1/2 to 2 seconds from pedal slamming to shift nannies off and howling with full power. You want a legit race? make him manually shift it and hold the gear. If you dont pull him below 70mph, you WILL NOT walk it down. Period. BE WARNED: all kinds of computer nanny interference means a tuned (de-nannied), cai, catback auto is gonna be one helluva lot faster than a stock one.
Conditions: Victorville, California elevation 2900', temp 97 deg F.
I'm 6'5" and square: I had trouble fitting into it, even with seat all the way back my knees were only 2" from the dash. Head hit the roof until I lowered seat all the way down, and leaned it back a bit. << kinda normal for me in all cars, not really a hit on the GT. Easy to read gauges, even when spinning the tires sideways down the road, though the interior does feel kinda cheap compared to, well, anything in its price range. Engine sound? Everyone was surprised I didn't like it, but I didnt: just sounded off tone and wrong. Not what I expected from a Mustang. Catback time for sure if I bought one!
Laggy throttle. Just revving it in idle is a joke: my foot was on the floor with a audible "thump" before the rpms even changed. Stupid computer nannies were already starting to rear there heads I feared.
Driving initial impressions: surprisingly reminds me of the LS1 Fbodies in the stiffness of suspension and surprising amount of tire noise that makes it into the cab. I like that, but most dont. Fairly stiff body for a pony car, but could definitely be stiffer. Car feels very short from inside: Having sat in a SS, Challenger, and Charger I would say the GT feels like about 5 to 8' shorter. No ****.
Power: high revving powerband for sure. If you are a true veteran gearhead you can feel? sense? the VVT working. Still not near enough power below 4k though. Laggy throttle and slow downshifts are annoying to say the least- though expected in any modern car available to the ignorant, crappy driver mod public nowadays.
Transmission and gearing the 6 spd does a masterful job of hiding the deadspots. Seriously, I did launches from every 5mph incremental speed starting at zero and ending at 90mph. It acts like a virgin closing her legs to your advances at every possible location. Only one dead spot- and it's a doozy. 25-30mph. Not 20-30mph, not 25-31mph, but TWENTY FIVE TO THIRTY MPH. Massive dead spot that totally exposes the low torque engines bottom end lack of power.
This 5.0 is a rental, youu know it doesnt have the track pack 3.73 gears. drop 3-5mph for that probably. Any quick LSx 6spd or A4 will literally put 3-4 cars on a auto 5.0 mustang if you race him from that 25-30mph range.
Other than that? Well, there is one spot around 70mph where it drops down to "only" 4200rpms on the hit. Thats it. Legs crossed tight, you are gonna have to take that cherry with brute force if you missed your "sweet spot" low roll starting point!
Dig? Does it surprisingly well: I was able to brake stall the converter up to 2100rpms. No ****, they must have a 2600rpm stall convertor from the factory- or a high STR 2400stall maybe? Due to that high stall, they pull just as hard from a 5mph punch as they do from a dig. Same with 10mph.
And at 20mph? Well, good luck. Pulls like a raped ape on steroids from 20mph. It's almost as hard pulling at 60mph, too: those two speeds you DO NOT want to race a 5.0 GT from!!!!!!
Nannies and torque management: they are on this car like white on rice. VERY VERY restrictive on both not going WOT when you want, to 2 second gear changes, to nannies everywhere that you cannot turn off that are keeping the engine from making power. I can EASILY see this car picking up 5 tenths with a tune and maybe another 5 tenths with a CAI, catback, and maybe tires.
Traction: mine hooked great, but it's 97 deg F outside and they were warm and the engine was down on power. The DA at a dragstrip with those conditions would require an oxygen mask!!! Bringing stall up to just before spinning the tires then dumping the gas barely let out a chirp. Just not enough torque, even with the factory high stall. --- and the high DA. Always keep that inmind while reading this post.
Top speed: honestly, it pulls better past 90mph than my GTO does. Speedo just swept on by 80, 90, 100, 110, and to 120 where I let up like it was on a dyno instead of in the middle of a desert at high noon. Very impressive for a Mustang... or most any other car not sporting 400+ real crank hp. You LS1 guys better have some breathing mods on your cars or these 5.0 stangs will "Supra" you.
Handling? Put the same tires on a SS and 5.0 and watch the SS walk away on any but maybe a very very tight track. Maybe the Mustang just needs bigger tires, but I think it's a geometry issue: either way bone stock it only gives the impression of being a great handling car- not the reality.
^^And yes, I can make that distinction whereas most other car guys can't. Aint braggin, it's just the simple truth: I've spent alot of time on roadcoarses and in fast, modified cars. The 5.0 has the bones to be a great autocrosser, but not with that current suspension setup. And that damned yaw control nanny has to go! It kicks in at 90% of max lateral when it is just starting to get fun.
Conclusion: Do I think it's a stock 12 second car? Absolutely. Even with the annoying nannies, average drivers on average tracks should knock out 12.9-13.0 times with 2000' or lower DA. Tune, CAI, catback should be low to mid 12's.
Side note: I'm also pretty good at judging the airflow thru an engine. This 5.0 feels like it's fully capable of more power with just a cam change. Reminds me alot of how I felt the first time I drove a LS1 Camaro- I immediately felt it needed a cam! Same here: expect cams to become a gotta have for the track crowd. Expect unported heads to pick up 40-50rwhp IF - and thats a big IF- the longblock can handle another 600rpms. If it can, well, ..... GM and Dodge better buy stock in Jenny Craig. Fast.
07-30-2010, 05:34 PM
#3
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Levi (5.0 guy) is interested in doing a El Mirage dry lakebed top speed run, too. It's only minutes from Victorville and he has already been out there. ?? We can run the dig and regular roll races on the way after we have dinner and do the meet n greet? 7pm for dinner, dig and short 25mph roll races (
) on the way to the lake bed then some fun runs. All on video with my wanna be racer Ford Flex as the video car.
Anybody else from the LA area want to do this with us?? Give me a page four two five, three four five, five five four four. I'll be away from the computer for a bit, gotta wine n dine the wife!
) on the way to the lake bed then some fun runs. All on video with my wanna be racer Ford Flex as the video car.Anybody else from the LA area want to do this with us?? Give me a page four two five, three four five, five five four four. I'll be away from the computer for a bit, gotta wine n dine the wife!
07-30-2010, 05:57 PM
#4
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Levi (5.0 guy) is interested in doing a El Mirage dry lakebed top speed run, too. It's only minutes from Victorville and he has already been out there. ?? We can run the dig and regular roll races on the way after we have dinner and do the meet n greet? 7pm for dinner, dig and short 25mph roll races ( ) on the way to the lake bed then some fun runs. All on video with my wanna be racer Ford Flex as the video car.
Anybody else from the LA area want to do this with us?? Give me a page four two five, three four five, five five four four. I'll be away from the computer for a bit, gotta wine n dine the wife!
) on the way to the lake bed then some fun runs. All on video with my wanna be racer Ford Flex as the video car.Anybody else from the LA area want to do this with us?? Give me a page four two five, three four five, five five four four. I'll be away from the computer for a bit, gotta wine n dine the wife!
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07-30-2010, 08:08 PM
#8
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Update: trying to corral everyone to the same spot at the same time is near on impossible! Right now one 5.0 guy and I are waiting for a reply from NiteriderWS6 who is supposed to be coming up for a run tonite (he's busy tomorrow).
Manny apparently doesnt get off work tomorrow until after 9pm- which is lookin like it might be too late for a run with the 5.0 guys... Arghhh!!
Why do I get myself into these kinds of messes? My wife is just shaking her head at me as I text as furiously as a 39yr old can text trying to set this up as it keeps changing and changing.
Manny apparently doesnt get off work tomorrow until after 9pm- which is lookin like it might be too late for a run with the 5.0 guys... Arghhh!!
Why do I get myself into these kinds of messes? My wife is just shaking her head at me as I text as furiously as a 39yr old can text trying to set this up as it keeps changing and changing.
07-30-2010, 08:09 PM
#9
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Wife was/is reading over my shoulder and then after reading the above post she doesnt say anything, just points down at the ad that was directly under my post:
"ADHD Treatment for Adults
Get information about a treatment option for adults with ADHD.
ADHDTreatmentforAdults. com"
"ADHD Treatment for Adults
Get information about a treatment option for adults with ADHD.
ADHDTreatmentforAdults. com"
07-30-2010, 08:36 PM
#10
TECH Resident
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Wife was/is reading over my shoulder and then after reading the above post she doesnt say anything, just points down at the ad that was directly under my post:
"ADHD Treatment for Adults
Get information about a treatment option for adults with ADHD.
ADHDTreatmentforAdults. com"
"ADHD Treatment for Adults
Get information about a treatment option for adults with ADHD.
ADHDTreatmentforAdults. com"
07-30-2010, 08:55 PM
#11
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Saturday at 3pm. Meeting NiteriderWS6 and hopefully Manny. Be doing some dig and roll races to be videod by HD camcorder. Then if Niterider is interested, we are going to the El Mirage Dry Lake Beds and gonna do some high roll races to top speed, all legal like. 
Know what I find F**ing hillarious about this? I had to be the guy, while out of state for my work (sans GTO), that sets up this showdown. And I can't even be in it!!!!
Know what I find F**ing hillarious about this? I had to be the guy, while out of state for my work (sans GTO), that sets up this showdown. And I can't even be in it!!!!
07-30-2010, 09:50 PM
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Saturday at 3pm. Meeting NiteriderWS6 and hopefully Manny. Be doing some dig and roll races to be videod by HD camcorder. Then if Niterider is interested, we are going to the El Mirage Dry Lake Beds and gonna do some high roll races to top speed, all legal like.
Know what I find F**ing hillarious about this? I had to be the guy, while out of state for my work (sans GTO), that sets up this showdown. And I can't even be in it!!!!
Know what I find F**ing hillarious about this? I had to be the guy, while out of state for my work (sans GTO), that sets up this showdown. And I can't even be in it!!!!
07-30-2010, 10:00 PM
#13
NiteriderWS6 (Lid w/paper filter, 3" cutout, catback)
Just trying to get to the bottom of it.
07-30-2010, 10:40 PM
#14
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
From our last "argument" he has a lot more than that and runs a lot quicker than 12s. He won't tell anybody, I guess it is a secret. I just know he said he had a LOT more than that because he bought it with that and the ghetto rims or something.
Just trying to get to the bottom of it.
Just trying to get to the bottom of it.
07-30-2010, 11:55 PM
#16
If he's hiding something, I'll find it. If I see new headbolts or ARP headbolts, I'll let you guys know. You might be thinking of the car he had last year that was nicely modded. Don't know why he would have anything to hide considering this is meant to be a guide for other LS1 owners to know how they stack up and what they need to do to LEGITIMATELY beat a stock 5.0
07-31-2010, 12:56 AM
#17
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From our last "argument" he has a lot more than that and runs a lot quicker than 12s. He won't tell anybody, I guess it is a secret. I just know he said he had a LOT more than that because he bought it with that and the ghetto rims or something.
Just trying to get to the bottom of it.
Just trying to get to the bottom of it.
Last edited by NiteRiderWS6; 07-31-2010 at 01:05 AM.
07-31-2010, 12:59 AM
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If he's hiding something, I'll find it. If I see new headbolts or ARP headbolts, I'll let you guys know. You might be thinking of the car he had last year that was nicely modded. Don't know why he would have anything to hide considering this is meant to be a guide for other LS1 owners to know how they stack up and what they need to do to LEGITIMATELY beat a stock 5.0
07-31-2010, 01:52 AM
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Ok so the two 5.0 cars that are rentals have the 3.31 rear gear correct? If so then that will definitely have a different outcome than the optional 3.73. It wont pull as hard and will probably make them a little closer race even against the modded ls1 cars
