5.0 vs 5.0
#601
I've only read up until page 9 and it's kind of late and I'm tired, but I will say this. The weight of the SS is the only thing I can think of that hurts it against the new 5.0. If it were the same weight, there would be some Mustang owner's going home unhappy, probably more frequently than now. As far as my car, I couldn't be happier. I have surprised a few people. Don't sleep on a sleeper. Had to put a plug in there for the G8, lol.
*** far as the SS. If they was the same weight it would be more of a drivers race.
#603
Well okay then... I guess there's simply nothing to explain why basically any and every racing class allowing either sees turbo cars winning over and over and over and over and over... again. Turbo cars have been the top of the game since 2001.
Not for nuthin' here... Go do your homework on drag racing. You may find information like, turbos aren't allowed in Top Fuel... or that turbo cars essentially rule the roost in classes where they, and superchargers are both allowed. You might also find that in many cases, turbocharged cars carry a bigger weight penalty than S/C's. If supercharged cars had any advantage over turbo cars, the penalty would go the opposite way. Without weight penalties, I'm fairly certain turbo cars would simply lead the way.
Not for nuthin' here... Go do your homework on drag racing. You may find information like, turbos aren't allowed in Top Fuel... or that turbo cars essentially rule the roost in classes where they, and superchargers are both allowed. You might also find that in many cases, turbocharged cars carry a bigger weight penalty than S/C's. If supercharged cars had any advantage over turbo cars, the penalty would go the opposite way. Without weight penalties, I'm fairly certain turbo cars would simply lead the way.
Last edited by ilovechevy1; 07-26-2011 at 02:58 PM.
#604
i thought about doing a turbo setup on my car..but i researched different Turbo kits and the HP they made at the PSI's they offered..also did the same with the S/C kits ,even tho i have one already, i wanted to compare the diffrences..there was'nt much of a difference..the basic P1SC kit at 6-7 psi made about the same RWHP give or take 10hp as the STS kit's...the only downfalls to a S/C over a tubro that i have seen is the S/C requires some hp to make the boost where as turbo's requires next to none..as well a S/C causing harmonic interference with the carkshaft due to the attached pulley...but these are rather small factors and i''m not seeing the portrayed HUGE difference..those factors are so small that it must be all in how either of the kits are setup on your car...if you, or It'll Run get on here and give me some profound concrete evidence of a Turbo having a huge advantage over a S/C..then i will sell my S/C and go turbo..i have thought of doing it beofre but have seen no major diffrences in the two
#605
I always thought a twin turbo setup properly would put a thumping on a sc'd setup? I never really got into the science behind it but that's just the way it seems. I'm interested in this topic now too.
#606
lol that's good then stay tuned and if IT'LLRUN can show me some huge concrete evidnce that a turbo setup has by far more advantages than a S/C setup..then i will sell my Procharger and get a turbo setup..i'm sure i could sell my setup fot atleast 3k..i did just have it gone through by ATI and they replaced the seals but said the bearing where perfect..as well as a new belt and new belt tensioner/idler pulley
#609
lol that's good then stay tuned and if IT'LLRUN can show me some huge concrete evidnce that a turbo setup has by far more advantages than a S/C setup..then i will sell my Procharger and get a turbo setup..i'm sure i could sell my setup fot atleast 3k..i did just have it gone through by ATI and they replaced the seals but said the bearing where perfect..as well as a new belt and new belt tensioner/idler pulley
I want to mention very quickly that a lot of people are mislead into thinking turbo kits are much more money than SC kits on your typical V8/I/V6 car performance car. Thats a bit misleading. SC kits generally don't come with intercoolers,proper tubing,bracing and most turbo kits do. Like drugs at some point you want more power and the intercooler will be needed. SC kits don't come with headers-your turbo kit 90 percent of the time comes with a more efficient manifold(s)than stock. As you get faster you need a lot of stuff most turbo kits come with(ie bracing for the compressor,fuel etc...). Some SC kits put a lot of pressure on the front crankshaft and require a heavy duty balancer of some sort or even cogged belts etc..How many guys have had SC kits on a Mustang,Vette,F body and had to upgrade to big boost pipes,BOVs,Bigger MAF etc???? Get pricey fast.
The main advantage of turbochargers over superchargers is efficiency. The turbocharger system steals almost no power from the engine itself to make boost. Supercharger systems on the other hand can take as much as 15-20% of the engines power to make boost.
Turbochargers use the exhaust gas heat and pressure from an engine to generate power for the compressor and make boost. This heat and pressure would otherwise be wasted out the tailpipe and in to the atmosphere. This could be argued that this energy is "free" unlike the SC requiring energy from a spinning belt and pulley on the front of the motor
Lets take a a mild 5.0 Mustang which is producing about 200HP at the wheels. Take a standard SC kit(Vortech S trim or a smallish Kbell if you like a roots type blower).
If both systems are making 10 lbs of boost at the gauge-manifold, and thus generating about 40% increase in engine output on the same 200hp 5.0, then the turbocharged setup would be producing 280HP and the supercharged setup would be producing 240HP. The supercharger would have to increase boost pressure in order to make the same amount of power as the turbocharger. This extra boost pressure obviously will cause greater wear on the engine itself thus resulting in shorter bottom end life,valve spring wear and less reliability. On a car like I likeChevy the difference is even greater due to his increased power.
Now on the street many people say heat soak issues are worse for the turbo car compared to the SC. As mentioned by itlrun many turbo kits are not simple bolt ons and can be more complex and can make trivial things like spark plug replacement-readings,oil changes etc suicidal. Also like he stated why do you think in the last 20 years turbo cars got handicapped by BS rules in NMCA,NMRA etc...They mopped up against SC cars and N20 cars.
Think about it. No slam against anyone with an SC.
#611
i build my turbo kits myself. pick everything.
turbos use ~2.5% of crank power in the form of backpressure/reversion. it can be more. cam timing can minimize the reversion.
the only practical way to take advantage of a turbochargers power advantage in drag racing is with an automatic transmission and transbrake/converter optimized for peak boost at the line.
in a sense turbochargers get some of their power for the turbine from the heat and expansion of gasses. its called pressure ratio. if a gas is heated at a certain pressure level its expanded volume is many times its cold state. the pressure that expansion creates on the high pressure side of the turbine vs. the low pressure side of the exhausting gasses is its pressure ratio. generally a well setup turbocharger will try to approach the same pressure ratio on the hotside as the cold side inlet. tubine/compressor. its not really approachable because of friction losses etc.
the combined volume of the exhaust housing A/R and the wastegate limits total boost...n engine can only push a turbine so hard. the more exhaust gas volume an engine can flow in lb/minute, the more boost it can support.
turbos use ~2.5% of crank power in the form of backpressure/reversion. it can be more. cam timing can minimize the reversion.
the only practical way to take advantage of a turbochargers power advantage in drag racing is with an automatic transmission and transbrake/converter optimized for peak boost at the line.
in a sense turbochargers get some of their power for the turbine from the heat and expansion of gasses. its called pressure ratio. if a gas is heated at a certain pressure level its expanded volume is many times its cold state. the pressure that expansion creates on the high pressure side of the turbine vs. the low pressure side of the exhausting gasses is its pressure ratio. generally a well setup turbocharger will try to approach the same pressure ratio on the hotside as the cold side inlet. tubine/compressor. its not really approachable because of friction losses etc.
the combined volume of the exhaust housing A/R and the wastegate limits total boost...n engine can only push a turbine so hard. the more exhaust gas volume an engine can flow in lb/minute, the more boost it can support.
#612
ok..if you say so...mustags dominate the drag strip???..thats cause alot of them where sold...and they are cheap to come by...and the fox bodies are the most common race car at the track...mainly because they are a lightweight musclecar.and besides hell man...ALOT of them are running GM engines LOL ..but i'm not talking about a few years of the F bodies domintaing...from 93-2010...the base model camaro V8 was faster than the base model V8 mustang...thats whole 17 years!!...and i know what you are gona say..the same thing most mustang guys say...well what about the cobra!...yeah..there was an 03-04 cobra that ONLY had 370RWHP stock even tho it was DOHC v8 with a freaking supercharger..but even still it was only on average 4 tenths a second faster than a stock LS1 Z28...sorry man..but the ONLY impressive mustangs are the new 5.0's...and i have videos up on my youtube channel of me beating 2 of those...also beating 2 GT500's and a modded Termi cobra...there is a reason 80% of the mustangs on the road are owned by ladies...i used to have a 3.8L 5 speed lightly modded 96 camaro...my V6 with only headers/ exhaust / and a CAI would run the EXACT same times as stock same year model mustang GT's LOL...i actually beat a few of them..becuase i had a 200 HP V6..and the GT's at that time had a weakling 215!...PFT..mustangs dominate...?...yeah..HIGHLY MODDED MUSTANGS and NEW 5.0's ONLY!...
if you are trying to prove to me mustangs are awesome..then let me show you my vid of me stomping a GT500...it's hard to prove to me anything unless i see it racing me at the track
http://www.youtube.com/user/iloveche.../0/ExEScKDFJeU
if you are trying to prove to me mustangs are awesome..then let me show you my vid of me stomping a GT500...it's hard to prove to me anything unless i see it racing me at the track
http://www.youtube.com/user/iloveche.../0/ExEScKDFJeU
Btw my good friend is putting a windsor in his third gen firebird which is close go a camaro... And its going to run 7s... In the quarter!
#614
you calling me reatrded but yet you just said " Btw my good friend is putting a windsor in his third gen firebird which is close go a camaro... And its going to run 7s... In the quarter!"...you need to add a lil more bullshit to the end of that sentence for anyone to believe that..you dont' just slap a Windsor in a camaro and run 7's in the quatermile..i think maybe you mean 8th mile..even then he may run a high 7 in the 8th mile if he's lucky...he's gona need more than juat a Windsor there buddy...give more info on it..or more bullshit..either way
#615
but serious question here guy's...so if i went with a turbo making the same PSI as my procharger does now..you saying i WILL pick up 15-20% HP ??...that somewhat seems worth switching over..but if i end up getting a measly 10 more RWHP out of the whole deal..i will be pissed lol...i mean free hp is free hp..but a small pick up in HP is'nt gona be worth the pain and aggrivation of selling my current S/C kit..finding a suitable streetable Turbo kit ..istalling it and redynoing and all that what not stuff...the gain will need to be SIGNIFIGANT!! for me to actually go throgh with it
#616
It would be dumb this point for you to switch. But yes if you went turbo in the first place for the most part you would be faster. Especially with the automatic-you can build boost from a stop and not lose boost on the shifts
#617
My only beef with turbos is that they need load to build boost. Centri's build boost based on rpm. Great for manual cars. That why turbo's love autos.
-Mark
#618
you calling me reatrded but yet you just said " Btw my good friend is putting a windsor in his third gen firebird which is close go a camaro... And its going to run 7s... In the quarter!"...you need to add a lil more bullshit to the end of that sentence for anyone to believe that..you dont' just slap a Windsor in a camaro and run 7's in the quatermile..i think maybe you mean 8th mile..even then he may run a high 7 in the 8th mile if he's lucky...he's gona need more than juat a Windsor there buddy...give more info on it..or more bullshit..either way
#619
but serious question here guy's...so if i went with a turbo making the same PSI as my procharger does now..you saying i WILL pick up 15-20% HP ??...that somewhat seems worth switching over..but if i end up getting a measly 10 more RWHP out of the whole deal..i will be pissed lol...i mean free hp is free hp..but a small pick up in HP is'nt gona be worth the pain and aggrivation of selling my current S/C kit..finding a suitable streetable Turbo kit ..istalling it and redynoing and all that what not stuff...the gain will need to be SIGNIFIGANT!! for me to actually go throgh with it
#620
I've only read up until page 9 and it's kind of late and I'm tired, but I will say this. The weight of the SS is the only thing I can think of that hurts it against the new 5.0. If it were the same weight, there would be some Mustang owner's going home unhappy, probably more frequently than now.
Yeah, and IF the Mustang had the same cubic inch the SS does; the Mustang would still be faster at the same weight.